Tourney The “20 BB Rule” (1 Viewer)

aaronroch

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I apologize that I have to ask this.
Reading through this section of the forum I keep running into the “20 BB rule”: The tournament will end approx when the total chips in play = 20 Big Blinds. (I.e. BB = 5% of chips in play.). Specific to NLHE of course.

I’m confused because I have run many single-table NLHE tourneys, and I always used a “10 BB rule” as a good estimate of when the tourney will end.

How is it possible that my experience is so different?
Are my players just extremely passive in heads-up play? (very possible).
Does the “20 BB rule” come with a lot of variance? Is it really “somewhere around 10-20 BBs”?

I’m just getting back into poker after a 5-year hiatus and I’m always the one that draws up tourney structures b/c all the guys I play with are either not analytical enough to do it, or are too inexperienced.

Thank you I’m advance for being patient with such a seemingly noob-ish question.
 
Mine tend to end with blind levels that are still lower than what would leave 20 BBs in play (I'd say 1 or 2 levels before that), but I've got a number of aggressors in my group. That said, I couldn't see one of mine going past the blind level that would mean 20 BBs in play - never seen that.
 
It depends a lot on the players that are left in the end game, the structure, the number of players, the speed of play (hands per hour) and of course variance.

When I hosted single table turbo tournaments (10 players, 2h) they usually ended with around 20 or even less BBs left. Same ten players but 4 hours would probably end with more BBs left. If the super nitty players are left playing heads up there's no telling how long the tournament runs!

The logic is that with 20 BBs left, the two heads up players can have a maximum of 10 BBs each and should therefore be shoving a lot. Sooner or later the shorter player will lose.

If the tournament has a really slow structure allowing lots of poker, then there will be a lot more BBs in play when it ends, for example WSOP ME ends with much more than 20 BBs in play!

Using antes pushes action and reduces the 'm', so for these tournaments I usually use the "30 BB rule".

My own experience with 5 hours (excluding breaks), ~20 players, antes (BBA nowadays), and a host that encourages speed (i.e., me), is that they end with around 30-50 BBs left. I've only had one go below 20, and it went to 6.7!!! I have no idea how. Apparently whoever was short always won. Again and again and again...
 
In my experience, it is very rare for events to last past the 20BB level. Most finish a level or two prior, so ending with 30-40BB in play is more common on average.

If heads-up with equal stacks totalling 20BB, that's only 10BB per player.... and with a typical pre-flop raise in the 3BB range making the pot 6BB with each player having only 7BB remaining, there is little room for play outside of shoving post-flop (assuming all the chips didn't make it in the middle pre-flop).

And when the stacks aren't equal, it's even worse for the shorter of the two -- nearly all correct pre-flop actions are either fold or shove..... and it doesn't take too many hands for both players to get cards they are willing to live/die with.
 
If you had a tourney with a big blind ante where the big blind ante was equal to the big blind, then the 20BB rule and the 10BB rule could refer to the same thing.
Just sayin'.
 
...nearly all correct pre-flop actions are either fold or shove.....

I think this is it. The group I played with before included a bunch of my friends from the local board game community. Sharp folks all, and they picked things up quickly, but they never did pick up this part.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!
 
In my experience, it is very rare for events to last past the 20BB level. Most finish a level or two prior, so ending with 30-40BB in play is more common on average.

If heads-up with equal stacks totalling 20BB, that's only 10BB per player.... and with a typical pre-flop raise in the 3BB range making the pot 6BB with each player having only 7BB remaining, there is little room for play outside of shoving post-flop (assuming all the chips didn't make it in the middle pre-flop).

And when the stacks aren't equal, it's even worse for the shorter of the two -- nearly all correct pre-flop actions are either fold or shove..... and it doesn't take too many hands for both players to get cards they are willing to live/die with.

I think it also depends somewhat on the chip stacks when three players remain. If Player 1 has a super stack and Player 2 is extremely short-stacked, play can go on for a while while Player 1 beats the crap out of Player 3 who doesn’t want to take risks until Player 2 busts.
 
I think it also depends somewhat on the chip stacks when three players remain. If Player 1 has a super stack and Player 2 is extremely short-stacked, play can go on for a while while Player 1 beats the crap out of Player 3 who doesn’t want to take risks until Player 2 busts.

I agree, table dynamics can play a big roll. One of my tournaments ended with over 60 BBs left because a monsterstack quickly took care of all shortstacks. No, it wasn't me :(

If you had a tourney with a big blind ante where the big blind ante was equal to the big blind, then the 20BB rule and the 10BB rule could refer to the same thing.
Just sayin'.

Sorry, I don't follow, please elaborate. "X BB rule" refers to the number of big blinds, so regardless of ante size I would just divide the total chip count with the BB, so in my book 20 BB and 10 BB would never refer to the same thing.
 
Sorry, I don't follow, please elaborate. "X BB rule" refers to the number of big blinds, so regardless of ante size I would just divide the total chip count with the BB, so in my book 20 BB and 10 BB would never refer to the same thing.

I think what APH was saying (and please correct me if I’m wrong) is that with a BB ante, when you get heads up, the BB is typically putting in 80 percent of the pot and, essentially, putting in two BBS (even though one is called an ante). Thus, the 20 BB rule could be looked at as a 10 BB rule.

To me, this illustrates one of the reasons the BBA is way inferior. Let’s just pick any level, with regular antes, that might end a tournament after it gets heads up; say 2000/4000 with a 500 ante. Each hand is worth 7000 (2000+4000+500+500) if there is a walk and the BB is contributing 64 percent of the mandatory bets.

With a BB ante, each hand is worth 10000 (2000+4000+4000) and the BB is contributing 80 percent of the mandatory bets. In most cases, this is going to cause any heads up play to simply be a shove-fest much sooner, increase the luck factor tremendously, and really lessen the fun of the tournament.
 
The BBA does a poor job of mimicking a standard ante shorthanded, that's why we reduce the ante to the size of the small blind when shorthanded. Heads up it should be reduced further, but that could mean reintroducing color-up chips, so instead I either remove it or keep it the size of the SB.
 
The BBA does a poor job of mimicking a standard ante shorthanded, that's why we reduce the ante to the size of the small blind when shorthanded. Heads up it should be reduced further, but that could mean reintroducing color-up chips, so instead I either remove it or keep it the size of the SB.

Have not yet played with BBA but this sounds ideal.

When do you reduce it? (How many players?)
 
For home games I’ve seen it go as late as 5bb, and as early as 225bb. 20-30bb seems pretty standard though.

If you’re consistently running past this, it’s likely due to some combinations of short levels (not enough hands to actually get people out at the 20-40bb levels) and poor, passive, heads up play. The 5 bb game was decidedly not GTO.
 
Have not yet played with BBA but this sounds ideal.

When do you reduce it? (How many players?)

That depends on which type of antes you want to emulate. Back when I used standard antes, I used WSOP's sizes. They where between 1/6 and 1/10 of the big blind (except for the first level(s) where the ante could be really small). For example:
1500/3000-500
2000/4000-500
2500/5000-500
3000/6000-1000
etc. They where all in the 1/6 - 1/10 range. That means that while you are 6 to 10 players, a BB ante will emulate an individual ante in that range.

Once you are 5 players, a BBA the size of the BB would be equivalent to an ante of 1/5 of the big blind which is a little to high. If you lower it to the size of the SB you will again be in the 1/6 to 1/10 range down to 3 players.

EPT, on the other hand, had lower antes in general. I think I've seen 3000/6000 - 500. That would be equivalent to an SB sized BBA with 6 players.

tl;dr: I drop down to SB when for 3-5 players. For heads up I don't have a good solution.
 
I drop down to SB when for 3-5 players. For heads up I don't have a good solution.
Heads up I like just using the SB size even though it is more dead ante money that traditional antes. It’s a lot better than a full big blind.

Dropping the ante size at 4 players is my preference for the simple fact that if you run two tables, you’ll be 5/6 handed when 11 left, and to me it’s weird to have them different and weird to bump it back up at final table.
 
Thanks Mr. Donkey Winberg, - what a wonderfully detailed reply, and Mr Frog, thanks for pointing out the 2-table thing. That’s an important bit since we’re looking at running a 2-table with BBA in Nov.

I kinda’ feel like heads-up must be very strange with any kind of ante...
 
Dropping the ante size at 4 players is my preference for the simple fact that if you run two tables, you’ll be 5/6 handed when 11 left, and to me it’s weird to have them different and weird to bump it back up at final table.
That sounds reasonable. I use tables of 8 and form the final table when there are 8 left (I know, I know, TDA says +1), so with 4 + 5 left they will both have an SB sized ante.
 
?!? ... but in your picture your donkey isn’t wearing scrubs. How’m I supposed to tell you’re not a plain old donkey? :rolleyes:
 
Because if your avatar is a scrub donkey, then you will be allowed into the next secret Paulson group buy (which will not be a group buy) from GPI.
Therefore I sincerely hope mine is a scrub donkey. If not, that would explain the lack of PMs...
 
Ooh! I had no idea!! Woohoo!

...wait, I haven’t gotten any PMs either.... and I specifically googled “scrub donkey” for my avatar. Did I not do it right? o_O
 

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