Talking During a Hand Etiquette

naked_eskimo

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During a hand I played last night with my online group, another player was talking during an all in and was way out of line in my opinion. His response was that I am still in the hand, so I can talk. The action was not on him.

Short version: I flop a royal flush draw with QTs. By the river, I had missed my flush, but made broadway for the nuts. The betting had been pretty heavy up to that point with the talkative player trying to run yet another massive three barrel bluff. Me and one other player were calling. Ace of clubs comes on the river and I raise $50 putting the bluffing player all-in and a $50 call into a $150 stack for the other player. While the other player is thinking about his call, the talkative player starts saying "Come on, obviously he has QT, just fold" He went on to describe the action to that point that he felt made it obvious that I had QT. I was very pissed. The other player eventually folded his flopped set of jacks. I immediately berated the talkative player saying sure you can talk if you are still in a hand if the action is on you, but you cannot, under any circumstances try to influence another players decision. That is not allowed whether you are in the hand or not.

Not sure if an actual rule was broken or it was just horrible etiquette on his part.
 

Poker Zombie

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TDA rules (which may not apply because it was a cash game):
67: No Disclosure. One Player to a Hand Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, must not:
1. Discuss contents of live or mucked hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

One-player-to-a-hand is in effect. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player, advisor, or spectator.

The key here is "this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player"
 

Rieguy

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If this is a regular group, the damage is already done. Best way to handle it now is just to make it clear that this is unacceptable behavior from here on out.
 

naked_eskimo

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Agreed, Rieguy, and that is exactly what I did. I said nothing during the hand as I did not want to possibly have my objections in real time possibly influence the would be caller. So I remained silent. Immediately after the hand, I said you were way out of line and he replied that he was not and that he is allowed to talk if still in a hand. Then he threw a bit of a hissy fit and left the Jitsi voice chat room for the rest of the session.

I mean this is a fairly common sense kind of thing. He's been playing poker for 15 years. He should not need it pointed out that you cannot talk like that during a hand under any circumstance.

I think he was having a bad session and resented that I was going to win a large pot while he had just emptied his clip on another bluff. He wanted to discourage a call out of spite, in my opinion.
 
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Rieguy

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Then he threw a bit of a hissy fit and left the Jitsi voice chat room for the rest of the session.

People are naturally defensive, which is amplified when they are losing in a competitive domain. Add in being friends and this unfortunately happens. In my regular games there are a couple people that get a bit tipsy and will yell stuff like, "call you pussy", but luckily they can't read hands for shit and no one takes them seriously, but deep down, it does annoy me a bit since it is usually regarding my bets.

With an explanation and some time to cool down, hopefully your group will mutually agree to not allow that in the future.

Just curious, how did the rest of the table react?
 

ArielVer18

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Agreed, Rieguy, and that is exactly what I did. I said nothing during the hand as I did not want to possibly have my objections in real time possibly influence the would be caller.

No way. You gotta call him out in real time. Damage is already done with the talking, but you (and everyone else at the table) have the obligation to prevent further damage by saying "shh! one player to a hand" or something similar
 

naked_eskimo

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People are naturally defensive, which is amplified when they are losing in a competitive domain. Add in being friends and this unfortunately happens. In my regular games there are a couple people that get a bit tipsy and will yell stuff like, "call you pussy", but luckily they can't read hands for shit and no one takes them seriously, but deep down, it does annoy me a bit since it is usually regarding my bets.

With an explanation and some time to cool down, hopefully your group will mutually agree to not allow that in the future.

Just curious, how did the rest of the table react?

There were only three of us left at that point. I asked the other player if he agreed with me and he gave a vague borderline support answer. Once the other player left the voice chat, he then said I totally agree with you that he was way out of line. Well, geesh, grow a pair and agree with me fully at the time.
 

naked_eskimo

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No way. You gotta call him out in real time. Damage is already done with the talking, but you (and everyone else at the table) have the obligation to prevent further damage by saying "shh! one player to a hand" or something similar
I would have except I wanted that player to call as I had the stone cold nuts. If he says fold and I say stop talking, I didn't want that to give the would be caller more incentive to fold.
 

Kid_Eastwood

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TDA rules (which may not apply because it was a cash game):


The key here is "this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player"

Is this applying also for heads up situation ?
Ex : the other player is all-in and I've now the decision to call or fold. Can I make my reasoning out loud and in the end tell on which hand(s) I put my opponent ? This in order to trigger a tell on him...

As per TDA rules it would not be allowed ?
 

ArielVer18

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Is this applying also for heads up situation ?
Ex : the other player is all-in and I've now the decision to call or fold. Can I make my reasoning out loud and in the end tell on which hand(s) I put my opponent ? This in order to trigger a tell on him...

As per TDA rules it would not be allowed ?
TDA: not allowed at all
RROP: not allowed in multihanded pot. no rule against HU

I think it's just a cash game vs tournament thing. Tournaments tend to have stricter rules.
 

Poker Zombie

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Is this applying also for heads up situation ?
Ex : the other player is all-in and I've now the decision to call or fold. Can I make my reasoning out loud and in the end tell on which hand(s) I put my opponent ? This in order to trigger a tell on him...

As per TDA rules it would not be allowed ?
ArielVer18 is correct, and it has come up as a topic in the TDA conference. Basically, you cannot tell your opponent "I have the straight", even to try to get a read. The rule is to prevent collusion when there are other players still in the tournament, but may not be in the hand.

Example:
3 players left in the tourney. Hero 1, Hero 2, and Dicky McDickerson, who has been a loudmouth, uncouth, ass who has been tank-checking when first to act, and slow rolling with the nuts. Hero 1 and 2 may not know each other, and have never spoke of collusion (and would not even actively ever consider it), but neither wants to see Dicky win.


Hero 1 Bets
Dicky Calls
Hero 2 Calls
Flop: 3 diamonds
Hero 1 Jams
Dickey folds
Hero 2 ponders...
Hero 1 tells Hero 2 "I flopped the nut-flush"

Even though the hand is now heads up, that is obviously wrong. Could the rule be removed if the game was down to the final two? Maybe, but why start creating new rules for heads-up play?
 

upNdown

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ArielVer18 is correct, and it has come up as a topic in the TDA conference. Basically, you cannot tell your opponent "I have the straight", even to try to get a read. The rule is to prevent collusion when there are other players still in the tournament, but may not be in the hand.

Example:
3 players left in the tourney. Hero 1, Hero 2, and Dicky McDickerson, who has been a loudmouth, uncouth, ass who has been tank-checking when first to act, and slow rolling with the nuts. Hero 1 and 2 may not know each other, and have never spoke of collusion (and would not even actively ever consider it), but neither wants to see Dicky win.


Hero 1 Bets
Dicky Calls
Hero 2 Calls
Flop: 3 diamonds
Hero 1 Jams
Dickey folds
Hero 2 ponders...
Hero 1 tells Hero 2 "I flopped the nut-flush"

Even though the hand is now heads up, that is obviously wrong. Could the rule be removed if the game was down to the final two? Maybe, but why start creating new rules for heads-up play?
I feel like the local rooms allow heads up talk for the last two in the tournament. In fact I’m pretty sure they do, because that’s how I’ve understood the rule for a couple of years.
(It’s almost ironic because just about every tournament chops before it gets to heads up)
 

Poker Zombie

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I feel like the local rooms allow heads up talk for the last two in the tournament. In fact I’m pretty sure they do, because that’s how I’ve understood the rule for a couple of years.
(It’s almost ironic because just about every tournament chops before it gets to heads up)
Yeah, no harm, no foul.

...but I would refrain from discussing my hand if I was heads up at the WSOP.
 

chkmte

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TDA rules (which may not apply because it was a cash game):


The key here is "this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player"
Where did you pull those rules? Wouldn't mind having a peek at the full bag.
 

Bad Toad

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I make it a personal rule to not talk about a hand that is underway regardless of the situation or who is in the hand. Talk about fishing. Why make friction?
 

Frogzilla

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Don’t talk about the hand multi-way. Don’t talk about the hand if you aren’t in the hand. If you’re in the hand, and it’s heads up, talk as you wish. Makes poker more fun.
 

naked_eskimo

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Roberts, SECTION 1 - PROPER BEHAVIOR
Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.

BINGO


I think I may have to send a group email to my online players with a friendly reminder of what the rules are.
 

Jambine

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Roberts, SECTION 1 - PROPER BEHAVIOR
Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.

BINGO


I think I may have to send a group email to my online players with a friendly reminder of what the rules are.
Do that, and also print a copy. Put it in a binder and set it on the table before your next game.
No better way to keep an friendly game friendly
 

Kid_Eastwood

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ArielVer18 is correct, and it has come up as a topic in the TDA conference. Basically, you cannot tell your opponent "I have the straight", even to try to get a read. The rule is to prevent collusion when there are other players still in the tournament, but may not be in the hand.

Example:
3 players left in the tourney. Hero 1, Hero 2, and Dicky McDickerson, who has been a loudmouth, uncouth, ass who has been tank-checking when first to act, and slow rolling with the nuts. Hero 1 and 2 may not know each other, and have never spoke of collusion (and would not even actively ever consider it), but neither wants to see Dicky win.


Hero 1 Bets
Dicky Calls
Hero 2 Calls
Flop: 3 diamonds
Hero 1 Jams
Dickey folds
Hero 2 ponders...
Hero 1 tells Hero 2 "I flopped the nut-flush"

Even though the hand is now heads up, that is obviously wrong. Could the rule be removed if the game was down to the final two? Maybe, but why start creating new rules for heads-up play?

What I meant is to tell out loud the read you have on opponent hand but I get your point.
You could do that and another "friend" not in the hand could discretely tells you if you're correct or not.

I get why this rule is there. So basically now D. Negreanu could not say out loud what he puts his opponent on before he mucks his hand or before the hand is finished ?
 

Poker Zombie

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What I meant is to tell out loud the read you have on opponent hand but I get your point.
You could do that and another "friend" not in the hand could discretely tells you if you're correct or not.

I get why this rule is there. So basically now D. Negreanu could not say out loud what he puts his opponent on before he mucks his hand or before the hand is finished ?
My guess is that in the D. Negreanu case, he is simply speculating on his opponents hand. However, if there are other players still involved it would be outrageously bad behaviour. I can't speak on a case by case basis though - knowing the rules is different than knowing who enforces which rule.
 

Kid_Eastwood

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My guess is that in the D. Negreanu case, he is simply speculating on his opponents hand. However, if there are other players still involved it would be outrageously bad behaviour. I can't speak on a case by case basis though - knowing the rules is different than knowing who enforces which rule.

I only saw him doing it in heads up situations.
 

ArielVer18

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I get why this rule is there. So basically now D. Negreanu could not say out loud what he puts his opponent on before he mucks his hand or before the hand is finished ?

Which time? WSOP is famous for changing their table talk rule every single year. Negreanu loves talking at the table and hates the WSOP's strict interpretation of the table talk rule. Therefore, he frequently steps on the line between what is "acceptable" table talk and disclosing a live hand.
 
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