RedRoom .... Rulings...... (1 Viewer)

bvegas80 said:
Hello all. My name is Brian or Vegas....
I have been playing poker for twenty one years. And have never ran a game or hosted. Poker is my pure passion.

I will share my evolution, and pics. In a different thread.

I had a situation occur.

Before let me give you a brief context before i go into the event.

Villain: semi pro. Very much so for the "rules of the game" this guy has helped me structure fair rake. Loaned me some chips to add flair to my game. So i had a biased view at first. After listening to the guys, doong some investigating work. I choose to hear what the community has to say.

This topic I posted. My poker coach is a content creator over at Crushlivepoker. And i will be addressing this issue and what its like to run a home game next Wednesday. So you guys can tune in. There were some mixed comments.

Here we go.

Villain has previously announced he was leaving after this orbit. He has to be home to his wife at 2am. This is natural. He wins 90 percent of the time. So hitting and running isn't really a concern.

However i did have a whale on the table. A first timer. That loved the action and the stage of poker.

Villain Utg plus 1....

Utg folds.... And i hear him say to the folded player. " I thought i was going to double you up, and proceeded to open shove for 200bbs." And mentioned something about not looking. I didnt hear exactly what was said. From the whole table. They didnt think he looked. I intervened because i felt the happiness iff the table dynamic shift. And it got serious. So i asked did you look? The villain didn't answer and it was certainly his right.

Most of the drama was unwarranted. He used a person that was not involved in a hand. To influence action. Regardless. The Utg was folded and done with her hand. So he broke a rule.... In my opinion....

After a few minutes of deliberation. The whale calls.... The villain scoops. He shows Aces.....

The table was mad at him. They hold him in high regard. They wanted to skin him. I felt terrible. Its his certain right to leave. The guys in my game. Said he hit and run. That was a predatory cheap shot at an angle. Tons of things.

I got the guys story. No matter what he tells me. He involved a player that was not in the hand. I wish i better addressed the situation there. For me im mad at myself. For allowing the dynamic to shift without appropriately addressing it.

Now the guy. Will not come back because hes mad at me for not letting this go. I easily choose the side of what i believe the be. The truth. So i seek it. And will hold him accountable jist as he dies every player on the table. My guys want him back, i dont know why. And now he definitely hit and run because he can't apologize and make things right.

So my question to the group.

Was this poor etiquette?
Classless?
A simple mistake from a twenty year semi pro.
Or a blatant angle shoot?

Thank you guys.....
Click to expand...
I dont see anything that the Villain did as wrong per say. Maybe poor form, but that's no reason to boot him or anything. Involving a player not in the hand is not a thing....unless that player is soliciting advice or somehow aiding in the play. the hit and run thing, the guy told you he was leaving....and I assume this means the whole table knew he was leaving too.
The fact that it happened against a player you assume is a whale changes nothing.


HOWEVER: you are the host of this game. If you don't feel he is good for the game, just dont invite him back. Or have a talk with him and tell him not to pull stunts like that anymore. I say again, you are the host. Do what you feel is best for the game.
 
grebe said:
I dont see anything that the Villain did as wrong per say. Maybe poor form, but that's no reason to boot him or anything. Involving a player not in the hand is not a thing....unless that player is soliciting advice or somehow aiding in the play. the hit and run thing, the guy told you he was leaving....and I assume this means the whole table knew he was leaving too.
The fact that it happened against a player you assume is a whale changes nothing.


HOWEVER: you are the host of this game. If you don't feel he is good for the game, just dont invite him back. Or have a talk with him and tell him not to pull stunts like that anymore. I say again, you are the host. Do what you feel is best for the game.
Click to expand...
Read the first post then commented, then read the rest. Holy shit. I hate I wasted actual thought in my post.
 
Late to the party. But:

1) It’s definitely not “collusion.”

Not sure the OP understands the term. Collusion requires two people to conspire. UTG folded first to act, as one commonly does in that position preflop… before Villain acted or said anything. Villain saying something to UTG after she folded doesn’t make her a member of a plot.

2) It’s not a hit and run, since the villain said when he was leaving well in advance. (And there is no rule that you have to lose your last hand.)

3) The alleged comments would be pretty feeble angles, even if meant as such… which seems dubious based on what others say about the villain.

And apparently not everyone heard him clearly anyway.

In home games, there is often a lot more joking and razzing and bullshitting than at casinos. Speech play with more than one player in a hand might be strictly forbidden in a casino, but is often let pass in a low stakes home game among friends who like to mess with each other.

If it were a repeated behavior from one specific player in my game, I’d disencourage that stuff, but this sounds like more of a one-time occurrance.

Anyway, anyone with real poker chips should recognize the claimed statements (didn’t look/was going to double you up) as an obvious sign that the villain had a monster. Simple “weak means strong” tell in amateur games.
 
Okay so I have only read the OP and not the 8 subsequent pages, but I do think as host, you are overreacting a bit. I don't think villain did anything wrong.

bvegas80 said:
And i hear him say to the folded player. " I thought i was going to double you up, and proceeded to open shove for 200bbs."
Click to expand...

To me saying "I thought I was going to double you up" is no different than saying "I usually lose when I raise, don't worry," or another interpretation "my hand is strong enough to get all the money in, but I expected bad luck." But that's up to players to decide. Being able to read strong-hand statements from weak-hand statements is part of the game. No issue whatsoever with that part of the statement.

But my guess is this is the sticking point.

bvegas80 said:
And mentioned something about not looking. I didnt hear exactly what was said. From the whole table. They didnt think he looked. I intervened because i felt the happiness iff the table dynamic shift. And it got serious. So i asked did you look? The villain didn't answer and it was certainly his right.
Click to expand...

bvegas80 said:
Most of the drama was unwarranted. He used a person that was not involved in a hand. To influence action.
Click to expand...
I think "used" is a strong word. He is using statements for sure, but bottom line, players that don't assume the villain has looked do so at their own risk. I don't think who he's speaking to makes a difference. If a player doesn't observe the villain looking, he is not entitled to the answer to that question. Anyone that asks it does so at their own peril. FWIW, from an etiquette statement giving no answer was probably villain's best option, as I suppose it becomes a gray area to give a misleading example as of course made famous in the Tony G vs Phil H clip I see made it on the first page of this thread :).

The fact villain announced he was leaving was I know added fuel to the fire, but the fact he made the announcement before that means we overlook this in judging the etiquette
bvegas80 said:
Villain has previously announced he was leaving after this orbit. He has to be home to his wife at 2am. This is natural. He wins 90 percent of the time. So hitting and running isn't really a concern.
Click to expand...
There can be no hurt feelings about standing up if he made the announcement before the hand. That's the whole point behind the etiquette of making an announcement. If he hadn't made the announcement, then I would understand the claims of an etiquette breach if he chose to get up right after that. If he wins this pot and says "2 more orbits" that's completely fair to me.

bvegas80 said:
Was this poor etiquette?
Classless?
A simple mistake from a twenty year semi pro.
Or a blatant angle shoot?
Click to expand...
There is no way in heck this is an angle shoot. At the absolute worst it's classless to use such a play to show up a whale. That conversation is valid to have as host with the player, that just because one can do something, perhaps one shouldn't for the long term health of the game. But you are way out of bounds even suggesting this is an angle shoot. It's a maneuver that didn't sit well with the players in part because of the result. No more.

I think where your group goes from here is decide what is the etiquette around answering the question about whether or not one has looked at their hand. I think the only thing that's enforceable is no one is entitled to an answer. If that expectation is set, what happened isn't an issue.
 
Probably not even the right place for it, but I think there is a divide in the community over this Tony G / Helmuth issue.
Some of us think it’s way out of line to say you haven’t looked at your cards when you have, and some of us think its just the same as bluffing.
I’m not even sure if that’s what really happened, and this thread isn’t the place for rational debates. But it’s not a simple issue.
 
merkong said:
Confession: I always push shopping carts into the cart collection stalls with my balls.

Hey, at least I’m putting the cart back and just propping the front two wheels on a curb. Monsters.
Click to expand...
You just do your shopping on your side of the Eagan-Burnsville line, mister :p.
 
upNdown said:
Probably not even the right place for it, but I think there is a divide in the community over this Tony G / Helmuth issue.
Some of us think it’s way out of line to say you haven’t looked at your cards when you have, and some of us think its just the same as bluffing.
I’m not even sure if that’s what really happened, and this thread isn’t the place for rational debates. But it’s not a simple issue.
Click to expand...
IT'S POKAH PHIL, OF COURSE I LIED!

All part of the game.
 
upNdown said:
Probably not even the right place for it, but I think there is a divide in the community over this Tony G / Helmuth issue.
Some of us think it’s way out of line to say you haven’t looked at your cards when you have, and some of us think its just the same as bluffing.
I’m not even sure if that’s what really happened, and this thread isn’t the place for rational debates. But it’s not a simple issue.
Click to expand...
Well what is simple is that neither player is good for the game. (Yes, I am aware we disagree on Phil H.)
 
Don't know who the villain is. Based on your description, this seems like wordplay. he was telling someone he would have folded. that is fine. Villain was not asking for advice from said player, which would be a breach of the one player to a hand rule.

Wordplay is part of the game. sorry your friend got stacked. Maybe he will file this away as a lesson learned, if he keeps playing poker it will not be the last time someone tries to use wordplay on him.
 
OP is banned it seems. Too bad, seemed like a nice bloke

IMG_7736.gif
 
gopherblue said:
I had insomnia tonight. Came across this thread. Couldn’t really understand OP’s OP, and based on that, figured he must’ve had an aneurysm or is smooth-brained. And nothing he posted after that dissuaded me from that assumption.

Tl;dr: you charge a rake? Who’s the real villain (and asshole) of this story? Gtfo.

I’m dumber for having read OP’s posts.
Click to expand...
My money is on CTE. Sounds like a brawler
 
Rhodeman77 said:
https://crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/is-that-an-angle-joeysal

Anyone have a Crushlivepoker account so we can hear what he told Bart?

@Sprouty already posted this above.
Click to expand...
Well I have listened to it and I think he was, in fact, lying about that. Shocking to everyone I know, but I looked at the show notes and the first caller was the guy with the etiquette question. Was an interesting listen, but the guy was just talking about an oddly played hand where there was confusion and a hand was tabled prior to the hand being over. Interesting spot and the insight Bart provided was interesting. However, I don’t believe it was Brian (Vegas?). The other dead giveaway was that his story made sense and he could articulate himself well.
 
upNdown said:
Probably not even the right place for it, but I think there is a divide in the community over this Tony G / Helmuth issue.
Some of us think it’s way out of line to say you haven’t looked at your cards when you have, and some of us think its just the same as bluffing.
I’m not even sure if that’s what really happened, and this thread isn’t the place for rational debates. But it’s not a simple issue.
Click to expand...
Imo players are responsible for protecting themselves. I’ve been schemed by someone who lied about looking at the cards and had the stones. It’s poker and that happens. It was my mistake for not being more alert and paying better attention. Do I think you’re a dickhead and a slightly slimey person for doing that? Yes, I do. If you need to lie about looking at your cards to beat me you’re prolly a long term losing player. I think it’s more something rec players do and as a regular player, semi pro, or pro you need to protect yourself and take it as a lesson. It’s not against the rules of the game. But it goes against the spirit of the game imo.
 
ekricket said:
Bunch of mean girls in here. Some of you are really out of line with the name calling and insinuations. Hope you feel better now.
Click to expand...
Not sure who or what you are referring to. But if they’re name calling the OP I don’t think that’s really outta line.
 
Bill_Man618 said:
@Rhodeman77 I assume you know this dunce do you know if he actually is coached by someone from CLP?
Click to expand...
He just started last week. N8ball or something like that. I know because he asked me to send the Venmo payment and gave me the cash to pay for it the night of this hand.

The note was meant to say Coaching for Brian from Cleveland. I was tired when I sent it.
IMG_9504.jpeg
 

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