Cash Game Recruiting higher stakes players (1 Viewer)

[Rhodeman77]

@DonkeyKing i have tried to help some of the other guys to get a cash game going, but they either live too far out that other players don’t want to make the drive or their setup isn’t as nice so players don’t want to go.

Funny thing is anytime they host a tournament they get 20 people no problem!

 

[v1pe]

Have you played PLO8? They will go broke even faster!

I can see it now, they bet pot with the nut now and no high hand and get 1/4 of the pot or worse when the get counterfeited.

What I would like to do have have some mixed Limit games to slow down the bleeding. But they all think Limit sucks because “you can’t protect your hand”.

Lol, yeah I guess if you don't play hands to scoop in PLO8 it's easy to get quartered or counterfitted and lose just as fast.

I guess there's no recipe that can keep a poor player from losing. Limit would help slow the bleeding, but I understand the sentiment.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I got some info on the Tuesday night game that I am losing players to.

The former Host of the Thursday night game played my game last night (lost $1500 so he won’t be back for a long time).

The Tuesday game is a $1/2 Hold’em only game unless the comes on the board then the next hand is Crazy Pineapple or of the comes on the board the next hand is PLO.

The crazy thing is the rake is $6/hand!!! My only guess is that they have some big fish in the game to draw all the players or that because it is Hold’em only (for the most part) that the swings aren’t that big.

But why play in a raked home game that charges as much as the casino does without any of it security? And it’s not like the players are being served steak and lobster for food!

 

[inca911]

I am super loose! I straddle every time I’m UTG. My VPIP is over 80% right now. My hand reading is leagues above theirs. They pay off my big hands a lot and then let me bluff them a lot too.

To me, your game appears too imbalanced in terms of player skill levels (i.e., yours vs. theirs). I've attended games where I'm the only winning player at the entire table, and the only solution is to play very, very infrequently (or not at all). Otherwise, the game itself will suffer. It's not fun for me or the other players to see people lose their entire bankroll and go home after only an hour or two. You don't have to be a great player to break a game, just the outlier. As the player that doesn't fit in your game is you, I recommend giving some thought to what you really want. Once you know what you want, the options will become clearer.

My goal is to enjoy poker + the company of other players regardless of $s involved, so I sometimes host a 10-1 microstakes game where players buy in for $20 and get $200 in chips (even at PCF meet-ups!). It's a lot of fun, and most players don't mind donating $40-60 to play poker. Nobody loses enough money for it to actually hurt, and players come back to improve their game while having fun. Many of these players would get eaten alive at higher stakes; not because of their skill, but simply due to the lack of time playing the games and being in the situations that frequently make/break a play session.

I think there's a "shear many, kill once" message in there somewhere.

Agreed. If you enjoy playing with a group of friends that aren't experienced players, you may want to consider setting an internal cap on your winnings. Not meaning that you deliberately throw the game, but choosing not to extract maximum value at every opportunity. Another option is to use winnings to bring things back to the event, like a nice bottle of liquor for the game, or donate a nice setup, or order pizza for the group. I've played at games where I've bought the host back into his own tournament when he busted out. If your actions clearly show you are there for the fun, players will come for the fun. If your actions show you are there to empty their wallets, they will take their wallets to another game that empties them more slowly.

 

[DonkeyKing]

Good Beer + Poker - Empty Wallet =Fun = All Good (y) :thumbsupy) :thumbsup:

 

[Rhodeman77]

To me, your game appears too imbalanced in terms of player skill levels (i.e., yours vs. theirs). I've attended games where I'm the only winning player at the entire table, and the only solution is to play very, very infrequently (or not at all). Otherwise, the game itself will suffer. It's not fun for me or the other players to see people lose their entire bankroll and go home after only an hour or two. You don't have to be a great player to break a game, just the outlier. As the player that doesn't fit in your game is you, I recommend giving some thought to what you really want. Once you know what you want, the options will become clearer.

My goal is to enjoy poker + the company of other players regardless of $s involved, so I sometimes host a 10-1 microstakes game where players buy in for $20 and get $200 in chips (even at PCF meet-ups!). It's a lot of fun, and most players don't mind donating $40-60 to play poker. Nobody loses enough money for it to actually hurt, and players come back to improve their game while having fun. Many of these players would get eaten alive at higher stakes; not because of their skill, but simply due to the lack of time playing the games and being in the situations that frequently make/break a play session.



Agreed. If you enjoy playing with a group of friends that aren't experienced players, you may want to consider setting an internal cap on your winnings. Not meaning that you deliberately throw the game, but choosing not to extract maximum value at every opportunity. Another option is to use winnings to bring things back to the event, like a nice bottle of liquor for the game, or donate a nice setup, or order pizza for the group. I've played at games where I've bought the host back into his own tournament when he busted out. If your actions clearly show you are there for the fun, players will come for the fun. If your actions show you are there to empty their wallets, they will take their wallets to another game that empties them more slowly.

Good points. All of the players in the game have been playing for years and play at these stakes on a regular basis. These are my poker friends, people that I know and have met because of Poker.

I have soft played at times some of them only to see them lose the money anyways to someone else. So that doesn’t feel right to me.

I provide dinner every game, a stocked fridge and I a nice liquor selection along with chips and other snacks.

Last night was rotisserie chicken, Greek salad, rolls, and a chocolate scoop cake.

I also have a high hand bonus hat we take $2/pot that hits $30 and is paid at midnight. It is always just over $200.

After our OMC went broke last night losing his $600 (his personal cap each week that I wish more of them would do too) I offered him som Johnnie Walker Blue from my personal selection that I don’t put out. He enjoyed it and it calmed his ruffled feathers before he left.

This week in think I will buy $20 in $1 lotto tickets and toss them into pot that I fold preflop (which aren’t many lol) as a bonus.

I try to make the game as friendly and inviting as possible while still being about a serious money game.

 

[detroitdad]

To me, your game appears too imbalanced in terms of player skill levels (i.e., yours vs. theirs). I've attended games where I'm the only winning player at the entire table, and the only solution is to play very, very infrequently (or not at all). Otherwise, the game itself will suffer. It's not fun for me or the other players to see people lose their entire bankroll and go home after only an hour or two. You don't have to be a great player to break a game, just the outlier. As the player that doesn't fit in your game is you, I recommend giving some thought to what you really want. Once you know what you want, the options will become clearer.

My goal is to enjoy poker + the company of other players regardless of $s involved, so I sometimes host a 10-1 microstakes game where players buy in for $20 and get $200 in chips (even at PCF meet-ups!). It's a lot of fun, and most players don't mind donating $40-60 to play poker. Nobody loses enough money for it to actually hurt, and players come back to improve their game while having fun. Many of these players would get eaten alive at higher stakes; not because of their skill, but simply due to the lack of time playing the games and being in the situations that frequently make/break a play session.



Agreed. If you enjoy playing with a group of friends that aren't experienced players, you may want to consider setting an internal cap on your winnings. Not meaning that you deliberately throw the game, but choosing not to extract maximum value at every opportunity. Another option is to use winnings to bring things back to the event, like a nice bottle of liquor for the game, or donate a nice setup, or order pizza for the group. I've played at games where I've bought the host back into his own tournament when he busted out. If your actions clearly show you are there for the fun, players will come for the fun. If your actions show you are there to empty their wallets, they will take their wallets to another game that empties them more slowly.

This entire post is spot on. Well said Sir.

 

[Joe Harris]

I have soft played at times some of them only to see them lose the money anyways to someone else. So that doesn’t feel right to me.

That is the point of soft playing. You don't win that money - so somebody else can. Of course they're gonna lose it anyway. They're bad at the game!

 

[Old State]

I’m just fascinated that you have a group of players that bad that will come back at all.

My $1/2 $2/5 group are all really good players including a successful legit pro (who started playing with us way before he went pro) Plus we all started playing together 15+ years ago. I’ve often thought that this is the dumbest game to play in .....but it’s my only option right now.

I can’t believe we invite the pro (who really doesn’t play that often but shows up for the $2/5 game) but with the egos in that group most probably believe they are better than he is...which I admit ....none of us are.

The big winners or losers are often simply decided by a few lucky hands or how much a person decides to drink.

 

[Kain8]

I got some info on the Tuesday night game that I am losing players to.

The former Host of the Thursday night game played my game last night (lost $1500 so he won’t be back for a long time).

The Tuesday game is a $1/2 Hold’em only game unless the comes on the board then the next hand is Crazy Pineapple or of the comes on the board the next hand is PLO.

The crazy thing is the rake is $6/hand!!! My only guess is that they have some big fish in the game to draw all the players or that because it is Hold’em only (for the most part) that the swings aren’t that big.

But why play in a raked home game that charges as much as the casino does without any of it security? And it’s not like the players are being served steak and lobster for food!

This is starting to become more and more clear now. These are bad players who are excluding you because you win regularly from them. I'm pretty certain that their results at the casino are almost as bad as playing against you. They probably had a great "echo chamber" game going before you came into the picture, where everyone's severe lack of ability was mirrored by everyone else at the table. That leads to money, at least theoretically, being passed around the table at a fairly stable rate with no exceptional winners or losers.

Then you, the Prince of PLO (figured I give you a cool nickname), comes into the game, starts winning HARD, and the host decides to shut it down and find another game where his losses can't be so magnified. Some players follow The Prince to his castle to play, and eventually start coming to the same realization that the former host did. At this point, you either have to recruit more players from different games or the casino, or REALLY ratchet down the stakes. I think though if you kept the game the same, you're going to be in the same boat over and over again with perennial losers leaving pretty quickly. If there are some good limit games at the casino, try recruiting from there, that's probably your best option if you want to play for meaningful money and have a healthy game.

I have soft played at times some of them only to see them lose the money anyways to someone else. So that doesn’t feel right to me.

Soft playing is never right ethically. Between hands, we can talk or joke. Once we have cards, I want every single dollar in your stack.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I’m just fascinated that you have a group of players that bad that will come back at all.

My $1/2 $2/5 group are all really good players including a successful legit pro (who started playing with us way before he went pro) Plus we all started playing together 15+ years ago. I’ve often thought that this is the dumbest game to play in .....but it’s my only option right now.

I can’t believe we invite the pro (who really doesn’t play that often but shows up for the $2/5 game) but with the egos in that group most probably believe they are better than he is...which I admit ....none of us are.

The big winners or losers are often simply decided by a few lucky hands or how much a person decides to drink.

I think ego is what brings most of them back! Not one of them has ever said or will admit that I am a better player than them. They all make comments about how lucky I am to get dealt that hand or hit that draw. Even though they get dealt the same hands and hit their draws just as often, I just make more money when I hit and get away cheaper when I lose.

I actually like playing in tough games, wouldn’t want to do it every week, but it is what makes you a better player. If you only play with the same mediocre players how are you supposed to get better?

We also had a pro play in our game for several years. He finished 10-12th or so at the main event 2 years ago. He plays PLO for a living and just about every one of think they could hang with him at the table lol (I actually can ).

 

[Mojo1312]

I don't think there is a lesson to be learned here, but I had the strange experience of seeing a player turn his $200 buy-in into $3500 playing $1/$3 at the casino in an eight hour session this year. He announced he was going to donate back $500 before leaving, which he did by making a variety of bad plays/calls. True to his word, he cashed out after losing the $500.

I share your perspective about soft-playing, more than likely, players are going to lose their money to someone else if not you. However, you might want to float by and let the others battle it out after you have multiplied your stack by X amount.

I would also add that few players care to learn the game by playing at a table that far exceeds their skill level.

 

[Old State]

I think ego is what brings most of them back! Not one of them has ever said or will admit that I am a better player than them. They all make comments about how lucky I am to get dealt that hand or hit that draw. Even though they get dealt the same hands and hit their draws just as often, I just make more money when I hit and get away cheaper when I lose.

I actually like playing in tough games, wouldn’t want to do it every week, but it is what makes you a better player. If you only play with the same mediocre players how are you supposed to get better?

We also had a pro play in our game for several years. He finished 10-12th or so at the main event 2 years ago. He plays PLO for a living and just about every one of think they could hang with him at the table lol (I actually can ).

I don’t think the pro is actually that much better than the average player in our group...but he is a hell of lot more disciplined. He also is great at leveraging the fact that people target him. Not simply because he is a pro but because he learned to play poker with our group a long time ago and some can’t accept he surpassed us.

He won a $1300 pot off one of the players he is friendliest with. His friend re raised a pot and isolated himself and the pro. Flop came with a K and junk. The friend bet the flop and turn hard and he got called. He checks the river when the board paired 7s and the pro bets big (can’t remeber what). His friend thinks and says “I got AA and I can’t believe you called me with K7....fuck it I call”. Pro shows K7. So it was luck but his table presence encouraged the call which his buddy would never have made against me or anyone else.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Soft playing is never right ethically. Between hands, we can talk or joke. Once we have cards, I want every single dollar in your stack.

Years ago I agreed uncategorically, and I still agree when playing in the casino or against home game players of comparable skill.

But nowadays, I definitely see the argument for soft play if you're utterly crushing a home game of less skilled players. I think it's more important to keep the game alive (and keep my invitation if I'm not the host) than it is to extract maximum value every session.

 

[Old State]

Years ago I agreed uncategorically, and I still agree when playing in the casino or against home game players of comparable skill.

But nowadays, I definitely see the argument for soft play if you're utterly crushing a home game of less skilled players. I think it's more important to keep the game alive (and keep my invitation if I'm not the host) than it is to extract maximum value every session.

When I host neighbors and friends for $.25/.50 that aren’t that good I just get drunk.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

When I host neighbors and friends for $.25/.50 that aren’t that good I just get drunk.

I both provide and consume the whiskey at these games...

 

[Rhodeman77]

When I host neighbors and friends for $.25/.50 that aren’t that good I just get drunk.

I both provide and consume the whiskey at these games...

This sounds exactly like every time one of my non poker friends wants to have a poker game at their house. I can’t get drunk fast enough! Dice chips on the dining room table, oh the joy! They always wonder why I’m the first one to bust if I’m so good!

 

[DJ Mack]

Years ago I agreed uncategorically, and I still agree when playing in the casino or against home game players of comparable skill.

I see no ethical dilemma whatsoever. I'm not a publicly traded company. When it comes to my gambling funds I have no fiduciary responsibility to anybody but myself. If I'd rather set the money on fire outside that's my right too. Short of colluding or giving specific people an advantage soft playing neither breaks rules nor is something I would morally regret later.

But it's all a moot point since I'm an average player at best so my opportunities to play soft are far and few between.

 

[k9dr]

I asked my 5/5 group why they play spread limit instead of no limit, and they said the game was dying at NL because players were going broke too fast. Max bet in this game is $50-100 depending on the game. We still get lots of $ on the table, but it is a little at a time.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I asked my 5/5 group why they play spread limit instead of no limit, and they said the game was dying at NL because players were going broke too fast. Max bet in this game is $50-100 depending on the game. We still get lots of $ on the table, but it is a little at a time.

I wouldn’t have a problem putting a cap on betting.

Question: If someone bets $100 is the only raise option to $200 then?

 

[k9dr]

I wouldn’t have a problem putting a cap on betting.

Question: If someone bets $100 is the only raise option to $200 then?

Yes. $50 max bet in O8, $75 max in PLO, $100 max in Hold’em.

Realistically, the stacks are shorter initially because the max buy in is $300.

 

[v1pe]

I wouldn’t have a problem putting a cap on betting.

Question: If someone bets $100 is the only raise option to $200 then?

Yes. $50 max bet in O8, $75 max in PLO, $100 max in Hold’em.

Realistically, the stacks are shorter initially because the max buy in is $300.

Follow up question...

Is there an option to reraise and continue in $100 increments until all of the money goes in?

 

[Old State]

I think higher limit limit Poker may work best. People playing $1/2nl should play $4/8 Limit. They will learn quick they can go broke pretty fast at that too but have the ability to protect their stack

 

[k9dr]

Follow up question...

Is there an option to reraise and continue in $100 increments until all of the money goes in?

Yes - most players are pot committed or all in by the second raise

 

[Rhodeman77]

I think higher limit limit Poker may work best. People playing $1/2nl should play $4/8 Limit. They will learn quick they can go broke pretty fast at that too but have the ability to protect their stack

I agree. That is why my limit set has a $2 chip workhouse to play $4/8.

 

[Kain8]

I think higher limit limit Poker may work best. People playing $1/2nl should play $4/8 Limit. They will learn quick they can go broke pretty fast at that too but have the ability to protect their stack

Your point, which is extremely valid and speaks to how limit games can be just as, if not, more action oriented falls on deaf ears. You can thank Rounders and ESPN's coverage of the Main Event which romanticizes the thrill of wagering all your chips in a single flourish. This created the outbreak of NLH only troglodytes who won't DARE play any other bet structure or game on account of "not protecting your hand" or saying that other games are too slow. Limit hold'em is even faster than No Limit, if one-dimensional players ever paid attention they would see that too.

 

[Old State]

Your point, which is extremely valid and speaks to how limit games can be just as, if not, more action oriented falls on deaf ears. You can thank Rounders and ESPN's coverage of the Main Event which romanticizes the thrill of wagering all your chips in a single flourish. This created the outbreak of NLH only troglodytes who won't DARE play any other bet structure or game on account of "not protecting your hand" or saying that other games are too slow. Limit hold'em is even faster than No Limit, if one-dimensional players ever paid attention they would see that too.

If people actually listen to the opening dialogue in Rounders he says NL cash rarely gets spread and even most pros wont play it

 

[Rhodeman77]

2 hours in and a little more than doubled up.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Si this game ended up being a lot smaller than most weeks have been. A couple of the deeper pockets regulars were not able to make it. But most of the losing players were in attendance along with 2 new players.

So I decided to take my foot off the gas pedal and play a much more loose passive game and gave back the $300 I was up. I ended down $15 for the night.

One of the new guys won and hit the High Hand bonus, so hopefully he’ll be back.

The other new guy lost, but he was short stacking the whole game. He even got down to $11 and didn’t rebuy. So he was playing above his comfort level I assume.

A couple of the regulars that have been losing also had small wins.

Even though the game was pretty boring for me personally I think not winning this week helped the health of the game long term.

 

[Payback]

I think you made the correct decision. Keep thinking long term.