Tourney Raise...by/to? (1 Viewer)

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

In last night’# tournament, player A had yet to act. The current bet was $300. They said “raise...$700”, as they tossed $700 in front of them. Player B, who was not in the hand, questioned if that should have been a $1000 bet, meaning a raise by $700. I ruled it as a raise to $700, as I felt player A’s intentions were clear that they were raising to $700. Interested to hear other’s thoughts.

 

[CraigT78]

In last night’# tournament, player A had yet to act. The current bet was $300. They said “raise...$700”, as they tossed $700 in front of them. Player B, who was not in the hand, questioned if that should have been a $1000 bet, meaning a raise by $700. I ruled it as a raise to $700, as I felt player A’s intentions were clear that they were raising to $700. Interested to hear other’s thoughts.

I'd rule the same way. They clearly intended $700 total and that's what they put in.

 

[LotsOfChips]

If they had only said "$700..." or "make it $700", that would have clearly meant that they were raising it TO $700 total. If they said "another $700..." that would have clearly meant $1000 total. As is, I would have taken it to mean $700 total, but I might have asked if I couldn't clearly see the chips in front of him.

 

[Eloe2000]

Now it would really be confusing if he threw in a $1k chip. But still I would look to prior and other behavior to understand what their intention was. If you can determine their intention I wouldn’t go to the rule book.

 

[tabletalker7]

I agree with your ruling. The player did not say "on top" or anything to infer the raise itself was 700, so I would think the total bet was 700.

** Note to all players - this is the exact reason why I just say "raise" and let my chips do the talking for me beyond that **

 

[LotsOfChips]

I agree with your ruling. The player did not say "on top" or anything to infer the raise itself was 700, so I would think the total bet was 700.

** Note to all players - this is the exact reason why I just say "raise" and let my chips do the talking for me beyond that **

**Unless of course you use a larger chip than what you mean to raise (as per @Eloe2000's comment above)**

 

[tabletalker7]

**Unless of course you use a larger chip than what you mean to raise (as per @Eloe2000's comment above)**

I have had the player next to me break down a bigger chip so I don't do exactly that.

 

[Mr Winberg]

“raise...$700”,

If the "..." is a pause I would rule it as 700 total. First he sais his action, then he said an amount, and I believe that the TDA says that if saying an amount without a "to" or "with" in front, it counts as a "to".

Even without the pause, if a player at my home game said "raise 700" and pushed in 700, I would probably not be a stickler. But that depends on the situation.

 

[Blind Joe]

If the "..." is a pause I would rule it as 700 total. First he sais his action, then he said an amount, and I believe that the TDA says that if saying an amount without a "to" or "with" in front, it counts as a "to".

Even without the pause, if a player at my home game said "raise 700" and pushed in 700, I would probably not be a stickler. But that depends on the situation.

My first reaction was to think that strictly speaking (and verbal being binding) that the player had raised by 700, but the above post makes sense and is in the spirit of the game. Plus if the TDA says that then that's pretty much done and dusted.

I would, however, add the caveat that in my (albeit limited) experience, it would be good practice to encourage players to make clear verbal declarations that leave no ambiguity as to their intentions. Not just so that these misunderstandings don't occur but also so that nobody exploits it as an angle.

In my group, which consists mostly of very casual and new players, I seem to spend lots of time explaining why verbal declarations are important and benefit the game. A player just throwing a bunch of chips in front of him and expecting everyone else to work out what his intentions are, as well as how much is there, is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

 

[JustinInMN]

I believe the custom has become a number declared is a "total" and not a "raise amount" so I think you made the right ruling. That said, @Blind Joe 's advice above on the obligation of the players to be clear is very well taken.

 

[upNdown]

A player just throwing a bunch of chips in front of him and expecting everyone else to work out what his intentions are, as well as how much is there, is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

Pet peeve or not, it seems to be a very common and correct action. I’ll see it done (in cardroom a and casinos) and the dealer will simply announce raise, which I think is actually the correct think to do. The dealer will only count that bunch of chips if whomever has the action calls or requests a count.

 

[Blind Joe]

Pet peeve or not, it seems to be a very common and correct action. I’ll see it done (in cardroom a and casinos) and the dealer will simply announce raise, which I think is actually the correct think to do. The dealer will only count that bunch of chips if whomever has the action calls or requests a count.

Point taken, maybe that's the norm in casinos and the like, but I don't see how it does anything to benefit the game; I can only see that it has the potential to cause confusion and slow things down, especially at a self dealt home game. If you want to raise to 15k, is it really that hard to just say it?

 

[BGinGA]

Chips speak, for good reasons. Verbals often muddy the water.

 

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

Thanks all. I appreciate the input.

 

[Forty4]

So a couple of different situations have been discussed.
Raises with a single chip I believe are a minimum raise, or at least that’s what happened to me in the past which is why you see people put out multiple chips when they just say raise sometimes without saying anything. So even if the player had thrown out a 1k chip I believe the proper ruling would be that the bet was 700.

 

[Blind Joe]

Chips speak, for good reasons. Verbals often muddy the water.

As someone with much less experience than you I'd appreciate it if you could expand on that.

I remember once reading and copying (though I can't remember from where) the following:

"Official betting terms are simple, unmistakable, time-honored declarations like: bet, raise, call, fold, check and all-in. Also, players must use gestures with caution when facing action; tapping the table is a check. It is the responsibility of players to make their intentions clear: using non-standard terms or gestures is at player’s risk and may result in a ruling other than what the player intended."

When put together with the oft quoted "verbal is binding" I've always thought it good practice (and good spirit) to announce one's actions and to do so in a way that makes your intentions clear, which silently throwing a bunch of chips in front of you doesn't seem to achieve.

 

[BGinGA]

As someone with much less experience than you I'd appreciate it if you could expand on that.

I remember once reading and copying (though I can't remember from where) the following:

"Official betting terms are simple, unmistakable, time-honored declarations like: bet, raise, call, fold, check and all-in. Also, players must use gestures with caution when facing action; tapping the table is a check. It is the responsibility of players to make their intentions clear: using non-standard terms or gestures is at player’s risk and may result in a ruling other than what the player intended."

When put together with the oft quoted "verbal is binding" I've always thought it good practice (and good spirit) to announce one's actions and to do so in a way that makes your intentions clear, which silently throwing a bunch of chips in front of you doesn't seem to achieve.

Because verbal is binding, it can cause confusion if it doesn't exactly match the physical action. But if you make a physical bet/raise and say nothing, your intention is crystal clear (and also binding) -- the chips put forth is the bet/raise amount, end-of-story, no confusion whatsoever. Same reason that saying "call" when simply calling a bet is unnecessary and redundant.

Only if your physical action is unclear (or contains more chip value than you intend to wager) is a verbal action really helpful. Either make a clear verbal commitment first and then put out the corresponding amount of chips, or just place the chips out and say nothing. But doing both simultaneously can cause confusion.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

If the "..." is a pause I would rule it as 700 total. First he sais his action, then he said an amount, and I believe that the TDA says that if saying an amount without a "to" or "with" in front, it counts as a "to".

Even without the pause, if a player at my home game said "raise 700" and pushed in 700, I would probably not be a stickler. But that depends on the situation.

Correct. 43B of https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/
B: Without other clarifying information, declaring raise and an amount is the total bet. Ex: A opens for 2000, B declares “Raise, eight thousand.” The total bet is 8000.

 

[Blind Joe]

Because verbal is binding, it can cause confusion if it doesn't exactly match the physical action. But if you make a physical bet/raise and say nothing, your intention is crystal clear (and also binding) -- the chips put forth is the bet/raise amount, end-of-story, no confusion whatsoever. Same reason that saying "call" when simply calling a bet is unnecessary and redundant.

Only if your physical action is unclear (or contains more chip value than you intend to wager) is a verbal action really helpful. Either make a clear verbal commitment first and then put out the corresponding amount of chips, or just place the chips out and say nothing. But doing both simultaneously can cause confusion.

Tbh I can't say that I fully understand or agree with that reasoning, or that I can't see confusion arising from silently placing chips, or that placing chips makes intentions crystal clear.

Maybe it's just me but I'd much prefer someone to verbalise their intention rather than for me to have interpret their actions, but that could just be me and my inexperience (and the group I play with lol).

 

[upNdown]

Tbh I can't say that I fully understand or agree with that reasoning, or that I can't see confusion arising from silently placing chips, or that placing chips makes intentions crystal clear.

Maybe it's just me but I'd much prefer someone to verbalise their intention rather than for me to have interpret their actions, but that could just be me and my inexperience (and the group I play with lol).

Personally, I agree with you. If every made correct and crystal clear verbal statements, that would be easiest. But people aren’t alway crystal clear, verbally.

 

[BGinGA]

Tbh I can't say that I fully understand or agree with that reasoning, or that I can't see confusion arising from silently placing chips, or that placing chips makes intentions crystal clear.

Maybe it's just me but I'd much prefer someone to verbalise their intention rather than for me to have interpret their actions, but that could just be me and my inexperience (and the group I play with lol).

Simply look at the rules quoted in the post before yours.

If the player simply places 8000 chips towards the pot, it is crystal clear that his raise is to 8000. Same if he places 10,000 chips towards the pot -- his raise of 8000 over the previous 2000 (10,000 total) is crystal clear, and he has said nothing

But if the player announces "Raise, eight thousand", then the total bet is 8000 ~unless~ muddied by additional verbage or physical action -- which means things AREN'T exactly crystal clear. If he tosses out 10,000 chips while making that declaration, it's a raise of 8000 over the 2000 to a total of 10,000. Same if he adds "more" to his statement. But if pausing between his verbal and physical actions (and someone please define 'pause' for the record, please), then his verbal is binding regardless of what he does physically.

So by speaking, he adds a variety of opportunities to be misunderstood -- while simply making the physical bet he wants with no unnecessary verbage there is NEVER a misunderstanding of the bet amount.... because chips speak, for good reasons. And as alluded to earlier, verbals often just muddy the water, while the intent of a simple and silent physical action is crystal clear.

 

[upNdown]

And here’s a wrinkle that threw me, when I first saw it. Old timers will sometimes say “raise,” put out the calling chips, then pause to think about how much they want to raise, then put out their raising chips.
First time a saw that, I thought it wasn’t right. Seemed like a string bet to me. But it’s not.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I never bet and speak at the same time. If I make a mistake and the verbal bet isn't consistent with the chips, then I've made things complicated.

I either speak first then place the chips (so if I f-up then the verbal is binding), or I silently bet the chips.

A player just throwing a bunch of chips in front of him and expecting everyone else to work out what his intentions are

I think this is the problem, and I agree that the throwing is a bit pet pevish if it's done slopy. In a casino the dealer would count and announce the bet/raise, but in a home game it's douchy. Unless they are thrown stylish so the chips land nearly in a row, then it's cool

 

[Blind Joe]

Personally, I agree with you. If every made correct and crystal clear verbal statements, that would be easiest. But people aren’t alway crystal clear, verbally.

That's true. Trouble is people aren't always crystal clear with their actions either, which is why my gut instinct is to want a verbal declaration, but I can understand more now about what BGinGA is saying below about "chips speak". If a player's action contradicts his verbalisation, or his action contradicts his intention, chips speak, so he is bound by the chips he places. Still doesn't make me happy having to interpret other player's actions and intentions and count their chips so I know what they've bet or raised, but there you go.

Simply look at the rules quoted in the post before yours.

If the player simply places 8000 chips towards the pot, it is crystal clear that his raise is to 8000. Same if he places 10,000 chips towards the pot -- his raise of 8000 over the previous 2000 (10,000 total) is crystal clear, and he has said nothing

But if the player announces "Raise, eight thousand", then the total bet is 8000 ~unless~ muddied by additional verbage or physical action -- which means things AREN'T exactly crystal clear. If he tosses out 10,000 chips while making that declaration, it's a raise of 8000 over the 2000 to a total of 10,000. Same if he adds "more" to his statement. But if pausing between his verbal and physical actions (and someone please define 'pause' for the record, please), then his verbal is binding regardless of what he does physically.

So by speaking, he adds a variety of opportunities to be misunderstood -- while simply making the physical bet he wants with no unnecessary verbage there is NEVER a misunderstanding of the bet amount.... because chips speak, for good reasons. And as alluded to earlier, verbals often just muddy the water, while the intent of a simple and silent physical action is crystal clear.

I understand you a lot better now and can see why "chips speak" is the method least likely to cause any confusion or contradiction in what wager is being placed. It's still going to bug me when a player silently places a raise, but I suppose that's my problem.

Since I've been hosting I have always encouraged my players to verbalise their action and to be as clear as possible. I suppose that makes me in the wrong but on a practical level it does help my game run. Players will almost always state their action by saying something like "Raise to X", or even just "300" if the previous bet was 100 makes it clear to everyone that the total bet is 300 and they have raised by 200. When someone raises silently it can leads to a barrage of questions from others asking that player how much he is betting, especially if there are lots of chips out in front of him, so looking at it pragmatically he may as well have verbalised anyway and saved everyone the hassle.

But yeah, I can see that if he verbalises in a way that can be misunderstood or misinterpreted then it causes problems, but I suppose that's why I try to promote verbalisation in such a way as a way to be crystal clear, telling my players to declare their action and bet/raise amount. I'm in two minds about this, tbh.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I try to promote verbalisation in such a way as a way to be crystal clear, telling my players to declare their action and bet/raise amount. I'm in two minds about this, tbh.

I totally understand, I hate when sloppiness takes time away from poker. Perhaps you should encourage your players to just "be crystal clear" rather than to "verbalize crystally clear". For example, throwing chips out and having "lots of chips out in front" so it's unclear which chips are in the bet is not being crystal clear. There are ways to silently bet/raise so both the intention and the total count is known immediately.

 

[Blind Joe]

I totally understand, I hate when sloppiness takes time away from poker. Perhaps you should encourage your players to just "be crystal clear" rather than to "verbalize crystally clear". For example, throwing chips out and having "lots of chips out in front" so it's unclear which chips are in the bet is not being crystal clear. There are ways to silently bet/raise so both the intention and the total count is known immediately.

I'll take this on board. As I said in another post, I suppose it's me really who has the problem - I feel like if a player makes a silent bet then I'm having to do the work of counting his bet (something I'd considered his responsibility, not mine).

It's different with a dealer but in a self dealt game it's always felt better practice to let everyone know precisely what you're doing for the good of the game and as a general courtesy but I can certainly see the other side of the coin now. We don't generally have a problem with sloppiness or with players not placing their chips clearly on the betting line away from their stack. I suppose what I mean by "lots of chips" is if a player makes a raise with number of chips of different denominations it's a PITA to count. Throwing 3x T100s in front of you so they slide out nicely onto the cloth doesn't cause any issues or slow down the game, and it does indeed look cool. Maybe I just need to learn how to count (when drunk)

 

[BGinGA]

Two last points from me:

It is ALWAYS a requirement that a player make a physical action regarding his bet/raise (ie push chips towards the pot). It is NOT a requirement that a player make ANY kind of verbal statement regarding that action, either beforehand or afterwards. Those are the rules of poker. If a player chooses to make a verbal statement, it is binding, unless it occurs AFTER the physical action, in which case the physical action stands as-is. If done simultaneously, the verbal action is binding regardless of physical action. Some players avoid verbal actions for this exact reason -- they know what they want to do, and may mess it up by also verbalizing it. Others may wish to avoid giving away any information via speech patterns, inflection, etc., and it is their right to do so and remain silent.

It is the dealer's job to announce all raises and the amount of the raise, not the player. Even in self-dealt games, the dealer should embrace this part of the job as enthusiastically as all of the other responsibilities of dealing (proper shuffling, cutting, dealing, burning, controlling the action, bet collection, killing hands, protecting the deck stub and muck pile, awarding the pot, etc.). Just because a game doesn't have a dedicated dealer does not release the host or the players from the responsibility of having a well-run and well-dealt game. Players who agree to participate in a self-dealt game also agree to deal in accordance with the rules of poker, same as their implicit agreement to play in accordance with those rules.

 

[upNdown]

It is the dealer's job to announce all raises and the amount of the raise, not the player.

What do you think about the habit I mentioned earlier, of some dealers merely announcing "raise" and not announcing an amount until the action player requests it?

 

[BGinGA]

What do you think about the habit I mentioned earlier, of some dealers merely announcing "raise" and not announcing an amount until the action player requests it?

Sounds like a lazy dealer who isn't doing his job.

The only time it is acceptable is if a player bets/raises all-in, in which case the dealer may announce "bet/raise all-in" but wait until asked by another player on their action to specify/confirm the amount of the all-in wager. And other players at the table -- with live hands or not -- should remain silent regarding the bet size.

 

[JustinInMN]

Thanks all. I appreciate the input.

Oh PCF will give you more input whether you want it or not .