Questionable dealing at Las Vegas Red Rock Casino?

Jordan Downs

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During two recent trips to Red Rock Casino, I experienced some questionable dealing that raised the notion players are possibly being taken advantage of by the dealers. Both situations were similar, and the dealers made the same error (by saying error I’m being polite).

Setting: I was playing 2/4 limit and we were five handed. The table was comprised of four other players, two women and two men with whom all appeared to be very familiar with each other and the dealers as well. They all addressed each other by first names and spoke of topics from previous sessions with one another. Obviously, all locals. At 52, I was the youngest player at the table with the second youngest being in their 70’s.

The first hand: I was in the BB for $4 with J10o. UTG raised to $8, CO, BTN, SB and I all called. Pot $40. Flop was 789 rainbow. I flopped the joint and looked down at my cards and confirmed my hand J10. SB checked, and this is relevant IMO, I asked the dealer, “Can I raise?” Dealer said yes, max $8. So, I raised to $8. UTG and CO folded. BTN announced raise and made it $16. SB folded, and I asked the dealer again, “Can I raise?” She informed me I can make it $24, which I did. BTN called. I again checked my cards and the board and confirmed I had J10 and the board was 789. The turn was an off suit 2, all four suits were on the board. I bet $8 and the BTN raised all in to $15. I called the additional $7. The river was a 10.

I flipped over my hand and the dealer immediately announced, “10’s with a Jack kicker.” BTN tabled her hand J9 and the dealer announced “Straight” and began to push the chips to the BTN. Confused I looked at the board and fixated on the river 10. The dealer then scooped up the cards and turned them over. I readily admit it was my fault for not saying I have a straight. I had driven to Vegas from LA that evening, been playing for 5 hours and was going to drive home right after this session, so my attention was lacking to say the least. I initially chalked this up to a simple dealer error and my fault for not speaking up.

The following week I was playing 1/2 limit at Red Rock and on a full table. Again, the table appeared to be all locals with everyone laughing and addressing each other by first names to include the dealers (yes, I know the dealers wear name plates but the dealers all knew the player’s names too). I was the youngest player at the table by decades.

The second hand: I was in MP with pocket 8’s an EP player raised to $4 and seven of us called (Pot $32) and saw a flop of Js5s3h. The initial EP player C-bet $2 and the BTN raised to $4. I called with my 8’s and the EP player called as well, Pot $44. Turn was the 8s. I hit a set, but the FD came in. EP Player checked, and the BTN bet $4. Again, I believe this was key in the situation, I asked the dealer if I could raise and he said yes to $6. So, I raised to $6. The EP player folded, and the BTN called (Pot $56). The river was a Jc, I filled up. I checked with hopes of check raising and the BTN checked behind.

We tabled our hands, my 8’s full of Jacks and the BTN’s Q10s for a Queen high flush. The dealer announced Queen high flush and began to push the chips to the BTN. I looked at the dealer and said hey I have a full house and without looking back at the board the dealer said, “oh, 8’s full of Jacks” and he pushed me the chips. So, he clearly knew I had a full house.

During both hands IMO what was relevant was my asking each dealer about raising. I believe both dealers took that as I wasn’t familiar with poker. Truth being I’m a NL player and just don’t understand the structure of limit betting and raising. IMO, I don’t believe these hands were dealer errors; however, my opinion could be argued that I'm biased based on it happened to me. I’m interested in your thoughts on this situation. Coincidence? Honest dealer error? Or something unethical?
 

Frogzilla

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My gut says honest dealer mistakes. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if the other players may have noticed and chosen not to get involved because they are more familiar with the reg.

On the first hand if you have a straight, say so before dealer pushes the pot. Dealers mess up.
 

ekricket

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You might try announcing your hand when you reveal. Simply sitting there like a rock and turning your cards over for others to interpret leaves you wide open for mistakes. Typically losers flip their hand over without saying anything just to show how close they were or the incredible lay down they are making.
There seems to be a trend everywhere of not verbalizing hands or actions. Nobody can read minds, and silence, unintelligible grunts, incomplete sentences, and random hand motions can easily be misinterpreted. If you have a straight then say “straight” when revealing your cards. If someone checked in front of you and your unsure what they did, ask “has it been checked to me”? Or “is the action on me”?
Way too many of these “dealer messed up” threads that can be chalked up to player inattentiveness or just being lazy.
 

surfik

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As I hear from poker community there are cases of questionable behavior from casino and poker clubs employees. I am not sure that this is a case but mayby, just maybe dealers acted in favor of the regs that tip them heavily. That behavior was spotted and commented on 2+2 and Poker Texas websites. You may look internet for details.
What you can do is to talk to poker room directors and ask for investigation. Poker rooms are heavily monitored so it's easy to establish if that was isolated incident or frequent occurrence. You will not get your split pot money back but casino are likely to sweet up your loose with some freebies.
Key thing is to never be afraid to call for a supervisor in poker room.
 

FordPickup92

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I've no idea how you kept your cool and didnt announce your straight. I'd have been off my rocker... but then again these things happen so quickly and once the dealer turns the cards it's all erased I guess
 

Jordan Downs

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Yes I completely agree with the just tabling hands. As a result of these two hands I’ve made it a practice to announce my hand when I turn it over now. I’ve always practiced “the cards speak for themselves” thought. But now having had two hands in casinos where just tabling is clearly not the right thing to do. I’m gonna abandon that practice and go to announcing my hands.

Point we’ll taken @ekricket
 

surfik

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You might try announcing your hand when you reveal. Simply sitting there like a rock and turning your cards over for others to interpret leaves you wide open for mistakes. Typically losers flip their hand over without saying anything just to show how close they were or the incredible lay down they are making.
There seems to be a trend everywhere of not verbalizing hands or actions. Nobody can read minds, and silence, unintelligible grunts, incomplete sentences, and random hand motions can easily be misinterpreted. If you have a straight then say “straight” when revealing your cards. If someone checked in front of you and your unsure what they did, ask “has it been checked to me”? Or “is the action on me”?
Way too many of these “dealer messed up” threads that can be chalked up to player inattentiveness or just being lazy.
I do not agree in spirit. Casinos and poker rooms are expected to provide professional floor staff. That above all refers to dealers and tournament directors.
Cases like that one should be reported and investigated to remove any shadow of doubt about possible collusion between players and casino/poker room employees.
 

APatHand

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I don't turn loose of my cards until I am satisfied that the pot has been awarded correctly.
The winning hand should be the last one mucked. If the dealer announces someone the winner and then mucks that hand when I think I still have a legitimate winner the floor will be called.
This is a procedural point as much as anything else - only a live hand can be awarded the pot - muck all losing hands, award the pot, muck the winner(s).
 

JMC9389

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OP should have spoken up about the first hand, but the second hand sounds like an honest mistake. That said, as others have said, the same reg being awarded the pots does sound a bit coincidental to me.
 

Highli99

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When you ask the dealer each round of each hand if you can raise, it identifies you as an inexperienced player and makes you a mark for someone looking to pull as fast one. When in doubt protect your hand and ask for the floor.
 

nezara

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Can you not call over the supervisor immediately and have them review what happened on cameras to get it rectified? It seems like if it was a dealer error they would make it right. I thought cards speak for themselves if you do not announce something wrong?
 

Jordan Downs

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Learn the rules of the game before you play. The mechanics of limit play are simple and easy to learn.
I agree @BGinGA I should’ve done so. This most likely would not have happened had I not came off like my first time playing poker with my basic questions :tup:
 
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Jordan Downs

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Can you not call over the supervisor immediately and have them review what happened on cameras to get it rectified? It seems like if it was a dealer error they would make it right. I thought cards speak for themselves if you do not announce something wrong?
I could’ve called the floor man to review but I had two barrels of some really good $1’s set aside that I had planned on stuffing in my pockets and didn’t want the added attention.

I took the first time it happened as a learning lesson. That’s why I was quick to say something when it happened to me again the following week. In the future I will use the advice given from previous posts of holding onto my cards until the best hand is correctly declared and also announcing my hand as I turn my cards over. Both seem very practical and either one would’ve prevented me from losing the chop pot in the first hand.
 

moose

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FYI the game you are playing is named by the small bet and big bet, not the blinds, so you were playing $2/4 limit and $4/8 limit.

Also Red Rock is one of the few casinos I have played where I was certain I was being colluded against by the players and yes I found the dealers were extremely friendly with the locals. I never felt a ruling would ever go my way so I left.

Another time I was playing at TI and felt I was being cheated. When a player borrowed a smoke off the dealer - while he was in the chair dealing! - I had enough and cashed out.
 

Jordan Downs

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FYI the game you are playing is named by the small bet and big bet, not the blinds, so you were playing $2/4 limit and $4/8 limit.
Thanks. I really need to learn the game. I actually don’t like limit poker and only played because it was the easiest game to harvest 1’s while playing.

Also Red Rock is one of the few casinos I have played where I was certain I was being colluded against by the players and yes I found the dealers were extremely friendly with the locals. I never felt a ruling would ever go my way so I left.
Wow, so you had a similar experience too at Red Rock. That’s too bad.
 

Legend5555

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The bet sizing during both hands makes no sense. In the first hand they said the flop plays for the big bet ($8) and in the 2nd hand facing one big bet ($4) on the turn they said you could raise to $6? Both of those are incorrect sizings.
 

Jordan Downs

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The bet sizing during both hands makes no sense. In the first hand they said the flop plays for the big bet ($8) and in the 2nd hand facing one big bet ($4) on the turn they said you could raise to $6? Both of those are incorrect sizings.
Yeah, I have no idea about the bet sizing, that’s why I asked and bet what the dealers said I could bet. Outside of harvesting I’ll never play limit poker.
 
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I find limit confusing, I would have been asking as well. Just do both. Let the cards speak for themselves, announce the hand, and those cards don’t leave your kung fu grip until you’re satisfied that you lost.
 

ruskba

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The bet sizing during both hands makes no sense. In the first hand they said the flop plays for the big bet ($8) and in the 2nd hand facing one big bet ($4) on the turn they said you could raise to $6? Both of those are incorrect sizings.
Given OPs inexperience, I wouldn’t treat any of the recalled bet amounts as fact. Don’t get hung up since those details aren’t really relevant.

I think the OPs general timidness combined with less than stellar dealers caused a couple situations. Lesson learned, announce your hand.
 

Psypher1000

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Red Rock is one of the few casinos I have played where I was certain I was being colluded against by the players...
I felt similarly on a double-points day at South Point. I was there early for the chip show and sat down at 2/4 to kill some time. Didn't know it was double points day and I sat down at a table of geriatric locals who were there to rack up the points towards their monthly free roll. Almost no action was present so I started playing pretty aggressively at which point the attitude of the table turned sour (the dealer even announced after the second hand where I was raising as much as I could, "Oh, they're not going to like that...") and the players, in order around the table, would start reraising everything to the max. I thought for sure I was going to take a cane to the ear before I got out of there.
 
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