Poker rulings opinions (1 Viewer)

AcesUp907

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#1 - Setting = $50 Re-buy tournament, 20 players. - SB, BB, UTG calls, player A raises all-in, next player B says call and throws 1 chip in. Then realizes that player A before went all in and says he didnt mean to call the all-in. I gave player B a warning and made him leave the chip that he threw in the pot and let him fold his hand. The table was upset that I let him slide and they complained that he has had that issue in the past. Past rulings from dealers forced players to call the all-in and it was the first time that I was aware of this after I had already made the call. I understand if players were upset because no warnings were given before but I feel like for the "spirit of the game" a warning was suffice and is if it happens in the future but not to repeat offenders. What do you think about being lenient with certain rules vs being strict with no warnings? Are there normal situations were warnings are more appropriate? I had lots of pushback on this call.

#2 - Setting = $3/5 Pot Limit Omaha, SB discovers he has an extra card when the action is completed back to him. I pronounce his hand dead and tell the dealer to Burn and put a flop out as normal. The question, Is it proper to use one of the extra cards that was dealt to the SB as one of the burn cards? Again, at this point its unclear if the card was dealt as a 5th card, if the card stuck to another card as it was pitched, or if the card was left there accidentally from the previous hand. 1 player who always complains who was in the hand made a stink about it because he thought that one of the SB cards should have been the burn card. I know normally if a card is exposed or flipped during the deal, then that becomes the new burn card.
 

Rieguy

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On #1, I just defer to whoever is running the tourney. People will go by the letter of the law, but you would know better than us if it was an honest mistake. If not, I would enforce. I would always recommend being consistent as to past rulings.

On #2, I would probably have just called the entire hand dead and deal again. Less discretion here IMO.
 

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1) depends a little on situation, whether it was a verbal all-in and announced by the dealer, whether calling player got any reaction or was potentially looking for reaction, etc. If it was a quiet all-in with one chip and action was not announced by dealer then there’s a chance the floor will not rule the call as binding. Generally it’s binding

2) uh I probably burn a card. Seems like it doesn’t really matter
 

AcesUp907

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1) depends a little on situation, whether it was a verbal all-in and announced by the dealer, whether calling player got any reaction or was potentially looking for reaction, etc. If it was a quiet all-in with one chip and action was not announced by dealer then there’s a chance the floor will not rule the call as binding. Generally it’s binding

2) uh I probably burn a card. Seems like it doesn’t really matter
I would say the dealer didn’t announce it but Player B just wasn’t paying attention
 

ArielVer18

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#1 - Are you the floor in this game? Are these not your usual players or not your game? How can the players on the table complain that he has "had that issue in the past" if you've never seen it before? The book says Player B has to call the all in, but a decisionmaker can err on the side of caution and give a warning like what you did. The floor's ruling, whatever it may be, is final.

#2 - SB's hand is dead. SB is responsible for making sure he has the correct number of cards and he let almost an entire orbit go by before saying anything. Likewise, the back of the top card of the stub have been exposed for same duration of time, so the proper procedure should be to burn it for the flop, not grab a random card from the SB to use as a burn card. The purpose of the burn card is to protect the stub, not "preserve card order." Random is random.
 

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#1 - Setting = $50 Re-buy tournament, 20 players. - SB, BB, UTG calls, player A raises all-in, next player B says call and throws 1 chip in. Then realizes that player A before went all in and says he didnt mean to call the all-in. I gave player B a warning and made him leave the chip that he threw in the pot and let him fold his hand. The table was upset that I let him slide and they complained that he has had that issue in the past. Past rulings from dealers forced players to call the all-in and it was the first time that I was aware of this after I had already made the call. I understand if players were upset because no warnings were given before but I feel like for the "spirit of the game" a warning was suffice and is if it happens in the future but not to repeat offenders. What do you think about being lenient with certain rules vs being strict with no warnings? Are there normal situations were warnings are more appropriate? I had lots of pushback on this call.

#2 - Setting = $3/5 Pot Limit Omaha, SB discovers he has an extra card when the action is completed back to him. I pronounce his hand dead and tell the dealer to Burn and put a flop out as normal. The question, Is it proper to use one of the extra cards that was dealt to the SB as one of the burn cards? Again, at this point its unclear if the card was dealt as a 5th card, if the card stuck to another card as it was pitched, or if the card was left there accidentally from the previous hand. 1 player who always complains who was in the hand made a stink about it because he thought that one of the SB cards should have been the burn card. I know normally if a card is exposed or flipped during the deal, then that becomes the new burn card.

#1 - depends on how the action went down, how ambiguous was the all-in? Did other players hear it, could it reasonably have been misinterpreted? Where there all-in chips? was it a single chip followed by 'all-in' announced? Most of the time a call is binding, but there is a small chance I'd give a warning. You could have had a 10 min penalty and ask the player to vacate the seat for the duration.

#2 - I understand players want mistakes to not have an impact on the hand, using a card from the SB would preserve the board.

Having someone else randomly take a card from his hand, exposing it and using it as a burn is viable in my opinion, keeps his hand live, preserves the board, and gives everyone the same amount of information.

If there is a dedicated dealer this would be fine, if it is a self-dealt game, burn off the top of the deck would be more kosher. I would also have counted the deck down after the hand.
 

timinater

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#1 if you believe it’s a gross misunderstanding of the size of the bet he can retract the call and take his chips back. In a $50 friendly tournament with friends, I allow him reneg on the call. Obviously you weren’t aware of past incidents so can’t be faulted for letting it slide once more.

#2 dead hand, burn off the top of the deck, as someone mentioned above who cares about “card order” the point of the burn is to protect the rest of the deck.

These are my gut feelings, so I’m curious to take a peek at RROP and double check. Happy to stand corrected.
 

upNdown

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I would say the dealer didn’t announce it but Player B just wasn’t paying attention
That’s all we need to hear. If you don’t have proper dealers then you need to have a little flexibility. As much as I’d like to punish people for not paying attention, I think you ruled perfectly here. And screw the whiners.

As for the dead hand, I’ve seen it happen at least a few times in NLHE in casino/cardrooms and I’ve never seen anybody do anything different than a normal burn and turn.
 

AcesUp907

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I would say the dealer didn’t announce it but Player B just wasn’t paying attention

On #1, I just defer to whoever is running the tourney. People will go by the letter of the law, but you would know better than us if it was an honest mistake. If not, I would enforce. I would always recommend being consistent as to past rulings.

On #2, I would probably have just called the entire hand dead and deal again. Less discretion here IMO.
Im running the tourney in this case. I was made aware after the fact that dealers had been making the call in the past for players to have to call the all in. This was news to me that i wasnt aware of. It was an honest mistake but a repeat offender from prior days.

#2 action was already out, calling a misdeal im pretty sure is not the right move.
 

AcesUp907

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#1 - Are you the floor in this game? Are these not your usual players or not your game? How can the players on the table complain that he has "had that issue in the past" if you've never seen it before? The book says Player B has to call the all in, but a decisionmaker can err on the side of caution and give a warning like what you did. The floor's ruling, whatever it may be, is final.

#2 - SB's hand is dead. SB is responsible for making sure he has the correct number of cards and he let almost an entire orbit go by before saying anything. Likewise, the back of the top card of the stub have been exposed for same duration of time, so the proper procedure should be to burn it for the flop, not grab a random card from the SB to use as a burn card. The purpose of the burn card is to protect the stub, not "preserve card order." Random is random.
#1 I am the floor but I havent been to every tournament. In the past dealers didnt call for a decision, they made it on their own. I found out that they had been doing this without me knowing. Im in favor of a warning but some people prefer to be cut throat about it. Obviously you dont want angle shooting going on. This was just a player not paying attention and it had happened before supposedly.
#2 "not to preserve card order" - complainer didnt see it that way...IE if a turn card is exposed early, you run the river card as the replacement and reshuffle for a new "river"
 

AcesUp907

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#1 - depends on how the action went down, how ambiguous was the all-in? Did other players hear it, could it reasonably have been misinterpreted? Where there all-in chips? was it a single chip followed by 'all-in' announced? Most of the time a call is binding, but there is a small chance I'd give a warning. You could have had a 10 min penalty and ask the player to vacate the seat for the duration.

#2 - I understand players want mistakes to not have an impact on the hand, using a card from the SB would preserve the board.

Having someone else randomly take a card from his hand, exposing it and using it as a burn is viable in my opinion, keeps his hand live, preserves the board, and gives everyone the same amount of information.

If there is a dedicated dealer this would be fine, if it is a self-dealt game, burn off the top of the deck would be more kosher. I would also have counted the deck down after the hand.
#1 player was just not paying attention....
#2 More of a professional setting, hand was definitely called dead. Dedicated dealer
 

AcesUp907

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#1, I guess what I'm hearing is if the dealer doesn't announce a raise or all in, I should be more lenient with the player. If it is clear that there has been a raise then the player is responsible to make the full call.
 

upNdown

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I was made aware after the fact that dealers had been making the call in the past for players to have to call the all in.
So if that’s the house rule or whatever, you obviously should follow it. But as for what’s right? Like I implied before - there’s a reason that professional dealers announce all-ins out loud, and toss and all-in button in front of the player. If that isn’t happening, they might want to re-think their strictness.
 

AcesUp907

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So if that’s the house rule or whatever, you obviously should follow it. But as for what’s right? Like I implied before - there’s a reason that professional dealers announce all-ins out loud, and toss and all-in button in front of the player. If that isn’t happening, they might want to re-think their strictness.
All-in buttons are for the cameras right? Thats what a dealer told me in Vegas. In this case I am the house, Player B was not paying attention to the raise, while the dealer might not have said anything, the other players were aware that the raise took place and if player B was looking up he would have also known. If the dealer doesnt annnounce a raise it doesnt mean it didnt happen or its not enforced.
 

Mojo1312

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#1 - Setting = $50 Re-buy tournament, 20 players. - SB, BB, UTG calls, player A raises all-in, next player B says call and throws 1 chip in. Then realizes that player A before went all in and says he didnt mean to call the all-in. I gave player B a warning and made him leave the chip that he threw in the pot and let him fold his hand. The table was upset that I let him slide and they complained that he has had that issue in the past. Past rulings from dealers forced players to call the all-in and it was the first time that I was aware of this after I had already made the call. I understand if players were upset because no warnings were given before but I feel like for the "spirit of the game" a warning was suffice and is if it happens in the future but not to repeat offenders. What do you think about being lenient with certain rules vs being strict with no warnings? Are there normal situations were warnings are more appropriate? I had lots of pushback on this call.

#2 - Setting = $3/5 Pot Limit Omaha, SB discovers he has an extra card when the action is completed back to him. I pronounce his hand dead and tell the dealer to Burn and put a flop out as normal. The question, Is it proper to use one of the extra cards that was dealt to the SB as one of the burn cards? Again, at this point its unclear if the card was dealt as a 5th card, if the card stuck to another card as it was pitched, or if the card was left there accidentally from the previous hand. 1 player who always complains who was in the hand made a stink about it because he thought that one of the SB cards should have been the burn card. I know normally if a card is exposed or flipped during the deal, then that becomes the new burn card.

There are only two reasons why Hero would have a lot of pushback in scenario #1. Either Villain is not liked, or the players in your group have enough experience to understand that a single chip tossed over the betting line qualifies as a call. More importantly, Villain announced "Call." It is up to each player to pay attention to the action behind them. Curious aside, did this occur during or after the re-buy period?

Scenario #2 is easy. Re-deal. Scrolled up and saw your post that action had already occurred, which by the description in your post could have easily been corrected by telling the players involved in the hand to pull back their bets. Re-deal.
 

Mojo1312

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All-in buttons are for the cameras right? Thats what a dealer told me in Vegas. In this case I am the house, Player B was not paying attention to the raise, while the dealer might not have said anything, the other players were aware that the raise took place and if player B was looking up he would have also known. If the dealer doesnt annnounce a raise it doesnt mean it didnt happen or its not enforced.

Aren't you making a case against your own ruling here?
 

tabletalker7

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Situation #1
next player B says call
Verbal bets are binding. No excuses. He said call then he calls. About time he learned that lesson. If he had just thrown the one chip in and said nothing he could have forfeited that chip and folded, but verbal bets are binding.

Situation #2
at this point its unclear if the card was dealt as a 5th card
When the card in question is unknown, you burn and turn. If it is known then you put it back in the stub, shuffle the stub, and then burn and turn. I would also be happy with declaring a misdeal and starting from scratch here.
 

AcesUp907

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There are only two reasons why Hero would have a lot of pushback in scenario #1. Either Villain is not liked, or the players in your group have enough experience to understand that a single chip tossed over the betting line qualifies as a call. More importantly, Villain announced "Call." It is up to each player to pay attention to the action behind them. Curious aside, did this occur during or after the re-buy period?

Scenario #2 is easy. Re-deal. Scrolled up and saw your post that action had already occurred, which by the description in your post could have easily been corrected by telling the players involved in the hand to pull back their bets. Re-deal.
#1 The official ruling would be that they have to make the full call but I elected to give a warning. I feel if its by accident then a warning can be a sufficient action. Like I had a deaf guy do the same thing and I gave him a warning. He was unaware of the raise and I gave him a warning. Some places/people like to be cut throat about it. I heard multiple people saying "when I was at a different tournament they made me put my chips in" as if I was subject to making the same call. I made a judgement call and I thought it was a lenient call myself.

I do believe it was before the rebuy period was over.

#2 I dont think anywhere legit calls that a misdeal especially after action is out.
 

AcesUp907

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Situation #1

Verbal bets are binding. No excuses. He said call then he calls. About time he learned that lesson. If he had just thrown the one chip in and said nothing he could have forfeited that chip and folded, but verbal bets are binding.

Situation #2

When the card in question is unknown, you burn and turn. If it is known then you put it back in the stub, shuffle the stub, and then burn and turn. I would also be happy with declaring a misdeal and starting from scratch here.
#1, so u are the on the side of being more strict about it.
#2, I dont think anywhere legit calls that a misdeal after action is out. Maybe before theres action it can be a misdeal.
 

upNdown

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#1 The official ruling would be that they have to make the full call
For what it’s worth, I’ve seen similar situations in plenty of cardrooms and casinos and more often than not, exactly what you ruled is what happens.
If the dealer stops the action and it’s clear the caller didn’t realize there was a raise, they’re given the choice of calling the full amount or folding and forfeiting their calling chips.
I don’t know which official rules say what, but in the real world, people usually aren’t looking to screw people over, over a harmless mistake.
 

AcesUp907

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I don’t know which official rules say what, but in the real world, people usually aren’t looking to screw people over, over a harmless mistake.
I feel like most of the blowback was caused from the dealers making that call in the past with no warning maybe. Ive have also been to the Aria were they made me put my chips in when I made a similar mistake. So im thinking its house discretion but also, I have to be aware if it changed action at the table or if any angle was being played.
 

Mojo1312

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In case one, it is the responsibility of every player to keep track of the action, especially in a tournament. If it is a loud or rowdy game, then the house needs to do a better job by incorporating all-in buttons to eliminate a player's inattention from being excused.

In case two, the SB having an extra card means every player's hand is irretrievably altered. The pre-flop bets are identifiable and should have been pulled back and the hand re-dealt. Period.

Seems like the O.P. is seeking assurance regarding his rulings. Won't be found here. Furthermore, the term lenient is incorrect. The correct term is loosey-goosey, which would also be a good name for your poker room.
 

upNdown

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On #2, I would probably have just called the entire hand dead and deal again. Less discretion here IMO.
Scenario #2 is easy. Re-deal. Scrolled up and saw your post that action had already occurred, which by the description in your post could have easily been corrected by telling the players involved in the hand to pull back their bets. Re-deal.
The rules are crystal clear on this one. Once action takes place, small blind hand is dead and the hand continues.
I’ll go find a link
 

tabletalker7

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#2, I dont think anywhere legit calls that a misdeal after action is out. Maybe before theres action it can be a misdeal.
Most places I have played in would call it a misdeal, and this guy is exactly why
In case two, the SB having an extra card means every player's hand is irretrievably altered. The pre-flop bets are identifiable and should have been pulled back and the hand re-dealt. Period.
Action may have started, but it didn't finish. Once that player had action onto him, he noticed the extra card. Action had not completed, therefore a misdeal could easily be called.
 

BGinGA

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#1 - Setting = $50 Re-buy tournament, 20 players. - SB, BB, UTG calls, player A raises all-in, next player B says call and throws 1 chip in. Then realizes that player A before went all in and says he didnt mean to call the all-in. I gave player B a warning and made him leave the chip that he threw in the pot and let him fold his hand. The table was upset that I let him slide and they complained that he has had that issue in the past. Past rulings from dealers forced players to call the all-in and it was the first time that I was aware of this after I had already made the call. I understand if players were upset because no warnings were given before but I feel like for the "spirit of the game" a warning was suffice and is if it happens in the future but not to repeat offenders. What do you think about being lenient with certain rules vs being strict with no warnings? Are there normal situations were warnings are more appropriate? I had lots of pushback on this call.

#2 - Setting = $3/5 Pot Limit Omaha, SB discovers he has an extra card when the action is completed back to him. I pronounce his hand dead and tell the dealer to Burn and put a flop out as normal. The question, Is it proper to use one of the extra cards that was dealt to the SB as one of the burn cards? Again, at this point its unclear if the card was dealt as a 5th card, if the card stuck to another card as it was pitched, or if the card was left there accidentally from the previous hand. 1 player who always complains who was in the hand made a stink about it because he thought that one of the SB cards should have been the burn card. I know normally if a card is exposed or flipped during the deal, then that becomes the new burn card.
Both of these situations are clear-cut if the event is using the RRoP or TDA rules, and especially so if a dedicated dealer is in place (who has clear verbal and/or physical responsibilities to ensure an orderly game).

#1 --
Both rule sets state that the Player B's verbal call and physical action are binding, while the ruling authority has some leeway in negating Player B's call under certain conditions. My three questions ~to the dealer~ as the floor/TD responding to a ruling request would be:
a) did the dealer announce or otherwise indicate the all-in raise to the table (as required)?,
b) did the all-in Player A physically move any or all of his chips forward when raising all-in, or simply announce "all-in" with no physical action?, and
c) when Player B announced "call', what was the value of the single chip he tossed forward in relation to the BB (and to the all-in amount chips moved forward, if any)?

If dealer announced or othwise indicated an all-in raise to the table, then Player B's call is binding. If Player A moved all of his chips forward while announcing his all-in raise, then Player B's call is binding. If Player B's physical single-chip toss covered the all-in raise amount, his call is binding. In those situations, it is Player B's responsibility to pay attention and understand the ramifications of his verbal and physical actions.

But if there was no obvious-to-the-table verbal or physical action(s) made by the dealer or Player A that indicated that an all-in raise had been made, ~and~ Player B's calling chip size merely covered the BB, then the ruling party (dealer, floor, TD) may optionally negate Player B's call action and return his calling chip to him, based on his gross misunderstanding of the current bet size amount. However, in no circumstances is Player B required to leave any errant chips in a tournament pot where he is allowed to choose to fold to a misunderstood bet size -- he either calls the all-in raise amount, or folds while putting no chips in the pot.

#2 --
SB's hand is ruled dead once discovered to contain an incorrect number of cards, and is mucked by the dealer. Upon completion of all pre-flop action, the dealer burns the top card of the deck stub and deals the flop. The entire hand is NEVER ruled dead, since significant action has occurred by the time the illegal SB hand is identified.

To those nay-sayers who think one of the SB's 'extra' cards should be used as the burn card, you are overlooking that the burn card's purpose is to protect the deck stub, nothing more. Consider what dealer action is correct if SB's hand is found to contain only one, two, or three cards, or to contain six or more cards -- in all cases, the hand is ruled dead, mucked by the dealer, and play continues on normally.
 
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AcesUp907

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Both of these situations are clear-cut if the event is using the RRoP or TDA rules, and especially so if a dedicated dealer is in place (who has clear verbal and/or physical responsibilities to ensure an orderly game).

#1 --
Both rule sets state that the Player B's verbal call and physical action are binding, while the ruling authority has some leeway in negating Player B's call under certain conditions. My three questions ~to the dealer~ as the floor/TD responding to a ruling request would be:
a) did the dealer announce or otherwise indicate the all-in raise to the table (as required)?,
b) did the all-in Player A physically move any or all of his chips forward when raising all-in, or simply announce "all-in" with no physical action?, and
c) when Player B announced "call', what was the value of the single chip he tossed forward in relation to the BB (and to the all-in amount chips moved forward, if any)?

If dealer announced or othwise indicated an all-in raise to the table, then Player B's call is binding. If Player A moved all of his chips forward while announcing his all-in raise, hen Player B's call is binding. If Player B's physical single-chip toss covered the all-in raise amount, his call is binding. In those situations, it is Player B's responsibility to pay attention and understand the ramifications of his verbal and physical actions.

But if there was no obvious-to-the-table verbal or physical action(s) made by the dealer or Player A that indicated that an all-in raise had been made, ~and~ Player B's calling chip size merely covered the BB, then the ruling party (dealer, floor, TD) may optionally negate Player B's call action and return his calling chip to him, based on his gross misunderstanding of the current bet size amount. However, in no circumstances is Player B required to leave any errant chips in a tournament pot where he is allowed to choose to fold to a misunderstood bet size -- he either calls the all-in raise amount, or folds while putting no chips in the pot.

#2 --
SB's hand is ruled dead once discovered to contain an incorrect number of cards, and is mucked by the dealer. Upon completion of all pre-flop action, the dealer burns the top card of the deck stub and deals the flop. The entire hand is NEVER ruled dead, since significant action has occurred by the time the illegal SB hand is identified.

To those nay-sayers who think one of the SB's 'extra' cards should be used as the burn card, you are overlooking that the burn card's purpose is to protect the deck stub, nothing more. Consider what dealer action is correct if SB's hand is found to contain only one, two, or three cards, or to contain six or more cards -- in all cases, the hand is ruled dead, mucked by the dealer, and play continues on normally.
#1A/B/C great points. :tup: IS it "required" for the dealer to announce a raise?
#1 I have been in many tournament situations where once the chips go in the middle they have to stay. This happened to me personally at the Aria. I had threw chips in to call the first raiser but I didn't see that someone between us had re-raised. They told me I could either call the full or amount or fold with the chips in the middle staying. Not sure if this was the right call or not but it seems to be the case in many situations that Ive heard of.
#2 :tup:
 

BGinGA

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IS it "required" for the dealer to announce a raise?
There are a number of things that dealers are required to verbalize (and a few that they are not allowed to verbally state).

Announcing all raises and the raise amount is one of those requirements. Dealer may announce "raise all-in" in lieu of the actual amount, but is required to verbally verify the actual all-in amount if subsequently asked by a player.
 

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