PLO strat - OESFD (1 Viewer)

[Bradcorn]

admittedly i do not play this game nearly enough (but love it) because the only game the gets spread around me is 5/5 PLO which can play massive...5/5/25 etc etc.

There seems to be some good 1/2 games popping up and I played in one for a few hours yesterday. I was in a spot where I was truly lost and had no clue on what I should do (and think I made a mistake)

I bought in for $300 and built the stack up to $800 or so and get dealt 8c10c10hAh in the big blind with a dealer straddle.

SB calls the straddle (4) and I pretty much pot it and make it 15...5 people to the flop so 75 in.

Flop is 7c9c4d and I lead out $65.

Guy to my left insta pots for $270 and had me covered. Folded around to me.

WWYD?

 

[detroitdad]

Its tough. You have an opened straight flush draw. Outside of the straight flush. There is no guarantees that if you flush it will even be any good. Right now you only have a pair of tens with a shitty redraw. I think I fold here.

Is it common to get 5 callers preflop in this game? If so I don't think I would have potted it pre flop. Keep the pot small with a mediocre pre flop hand.

 

[trever]

Unless you know something about the raiser that you haven't told us (i.e. maniac, or he thinks PLO=NLHE), I'd fold here.
If you were shorter stacked, sure, shove and see what happens, but with $700ish behind, knowing that you're drawing, and not knowing if your flush draw is any good; pick a better spot.

I'd be curious to know why you raised preflop.

 

[DrStrange]

I agree. Hero could be in a world of hurt here, perhaps facing a set plus a better flush draw. That gives Hero 8 outs plus some tiny runner-runner draws and for six of those outs Hero has to fade a monster redraw.

There is almost no way Hero has even 40% of the equity in this hand. Time to quit - I fold

DrStrange

 

[mipevi]

For future strat threads, please list the action as it unfolds. At first it looked like SB and BTN remained, and yet we end up 5-handed on the flop... Also the stacksizes of other players matter, at least list an approximate. (y) :thumbsup:

If SB actually was the only one to call the straddle, you could entertain an isolation raise, but with two in position already showing interest in the pot I would just call. You are OOP and this hand doesn't flop the nuts/nutdraw often, but it does have decent nuts+redraw potential.

As played, on the flop your hand can't really stand a raise from someone in position, so now you need to fold. Instead of cbetting, you could have opted for a check/call line to better realize what equity your hand does have.

 

[thorwilliam]

Don't raise pre. Don't bet flop. As played, fold.

 

[Bradcorn]

Interesting how easy the decision was...I did end up folding and clearly shouldn't have thought that much about it.

Mipevi - I did list the action as it unfolded. Button straddle makes SB first to act preflop.

Raising pre was a mistake but three bets pre-flop were rare if not unheard of...so I was just trying to sweeten the pot with a suited ace and connecting cards. Didn't think it would thin the field much. Could be a leak, and a good lesson learnt

I guess I got caught up on the look of the hand and the real mistake was leading the flop with an almost pot sized bet. My assumption is you guys would call a pot bet on the flop - especially if it closed the action? I.e. I check and UTG pots and it is folded back to me? What if there was one caller with a stack of $300 behind or so?

Glad I folded and didn't convince myself to shove and run it twice...

Fwiw the guy said he had a naked top set, which if I did shove then that would have been the best case scenario?

 

[mipevi]

Fair enough.

Yes I would have called a pot-sized bet, with or without the additional $300 stack.

 

[moose]

Position is far more important in Omaha than holdem. I would never 'sweeten' the pot OOP. If you hit about the only thing you can do is bet the flop to protect your hand. You certainly can't check and take the risk of it being checked around. You will almost never be able to get a c/r in. The only value in raising OOP preflop is if you think you can drive others out of the pot and either TID or get heads up.

However by just calling you are far more likely to be able to get the c/r in or if it is checked around, at least the pot is small and you haven't committed a large portion of your stack.

Pot sweetening time is for late position where a raise will hopefully convince those behind you to fold so that you can be last to act after the flop and have control in the hand.

 

[Bradcorn]

Good tips and reminders

 

[stocky]

I agree. Hero could be in a world of hurt here, perhaps facing a set plus a better flush draw. That gives Hero 8 outs plus some tiny runner-runner draws and for six of those outs Hero has to fade a monster redraw.

There is almost no way Hero has even 40% of the equity in this hand. Time to quit - I fold

DrStrange

The Dr has spoken. I agree with all this.

 

[RainmanTrail]

This should be an easy fold. It will be as you gain more experience in PLO. This hand isn't really that good to be honest. In PLO, you want wraps, not open enders. And you don't want to draw at T high flush draws. You should be drawing to the nuts in this game with backup outs. This is a good hand for LHE or for a semi-bluff in NL, but for PLO, it's not what you're after.

 

[DrStrange]

The naked set is a pure flip vs the combo draw - best case for Hero

 

[onerand]

Preflop raise is fine. Fold flop as played.

 

[Jimulacrum]

An OESFD is strong in hold'em because it's very unlikely your draw will be dominated or duplicated. In PLO, it's a modest draw to a very big hand, but it only really has value if you hit the big hand. Against this much action, you're unlikely to be in a favorable situation. Good PLO players will tend to have backup against the flush and/or straight draw when they shove on you on this kind of flop. You're not even a coin flip against a bare set, and it only gets worse from there if Villain has anything else to go with his set. Fold.

In PLO, 8cTcThAh is not a very good hand. It's not even worth a preflop raise in late position, never mind out of position, especially in a multi-way pot. You can't stand much action with this hand preflop, and you can't stand much action with it on later streets unless you hit perfect one way or the other. See a flop cheaply, and only remain involved if you truly smash it.

Your PLO hole cards—especially your raising hands—should have a premium structure. What you have here are three playable but separate hold'em hands: TT, AhTh, and 8cTc. Notice how hitting one of those three hands typically makes the rest of the cards worthless, as it did in this case. Now you're stuck playing a two-card hand in a game where everyone gets four cards.

Compare your situation to hitting this same flop with a better-structured hand like 6h8cTcJh or 8hTcJhAc, and it should be clear why you don't want to get over-involved with this hand. There are much better opportunities in this game.

 

[BGinGA]

Your PLO hole cards—especially your raising hands—should have a premium structure. What you have here are three playable but separate hold'em hands: TT, AhTh, and 8cTc. Notice how hitting one of those three hands typically makes the rest of the cards worthless, as it did in this case. Now you're stuck playing a two-card hand in a game where everyone gets four cards.

^ Worth the price of admission. PLO veterans know this, and alter play accordingly. Less experienced players should take this advice to heart, and use it to plug leaks in starting hand selection criteria. Unless you're playing where I play, of course, in which case you should always chase ten-high flush draws and the mighty oesd, with no re-draws.

There are, however, at least two other ways to play. One is the Ronoh System, where seeing 100% of all flops is the key to success (as is knowing when to fold on the flop). The other is the Chicken Rob check-call-get-there-on-the-river method, which has the added bonus of usually putting your villains on serious tilt (equates to free money in later orbits). If you can manage to successfully combine both methods, you will usually be rewarded with solar flare intensity run-good, and typically need to worry only if Ben is sitting to your left.

 

[Anthony Martino]

As others have stated, don't bloat the pot OOP here against what will likely be multiple callers, position is SO important in these games. And as played, fold the flop.

 

[Jimulacrum]

As others have stated, don't bloat the pot OOP here against what will likely be multiple callers, position is SO important in these games. And as played, fold the flop.

That preflop raise really did ruin a hand that could've been good. I don't mind seeing flops with this kind of hand if it's a limped pot, and a small pot would allow for some implied odds if stacks are reasonably deep. Instead, since he raised and bet out, it's all-or-nothing on the flop, with a hand that doesn't figure to be a winner at showdown very often.

 

[Anthony Martino]

That preflop raise really did ruin a hand that could've been good. I don't mind seeing flops with this kind of hand if it's a limped pot, and a small pot would allow for some implied odds if stacks are reasonably deep. Instead, since he raised and bet out, it's all-or-nothing on the flop, with a hand that doesn't figure to be a winner at showdown very often.

It's not that I hate his hand, it's that I hate his being OOP. If he was in position I could see an argument for a raise, but from the blinds against multiple callers I just don't like it.

 

[Jimulacrum]

It's not that I hate his hand, it's that I hate his being OOP. If he was in position I could see an argument for a raise, but from the blinds against multiple callers I just don't like it.

I can see an argument for a raise from the cutoff or button if we have no limpers or one limper, i.e., we have good steal potential after the flop.

That's about it, though, and if it looks to go multi-way, a raise hurts more than it helps.

 

[Bradcorn]

Good discussions and agree with what you are all saying.

Clearly leading the flop was pretty dumb but some good advice on hear to read before each session.

Glad I was at least smart enough to limit the mistake and fold to the repot!