Quads in Dramaha (3 Viewers)

[Jimulacrum]

Quad nines, to be exact, and more specifically, Route 66 was the game (6-card Dramaha with a 3-2-1 board).

Checked around the flop, I drew 6 to a 9-9-Q board and caught 99 in the hole (but nothing else). Board ran out 10-10-10.

The only opponent left on the end was a guy who drew 1 on the flop. He made a ~2/3 pot bet on the river as the third 10 came off. This is someone who makes plays at me sometimes and can bluff on the end, but of course I've also caught him at it several times, including at least once this session.

I chatted with him a bit. He outright said he didn't have the 10, but he seemed fairly confident. I don't remember his exact words, but his chatter had an inviting character to it, like he wanted a call.

It's a straightforward spot, in terms of the betting. Call or fold?

 

[Jimulacrum]

If you're wondering why I drew 6, it was a bomb pot, so play started on the flop. I had 23458K (guessing those last two) in my hand and an opponent had just drawn 1, so drawing to the minimum straight was a losing proposition. Decided to just reroll the whole thing instead.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I fold. Maybe getting half, maybe getting nothing.

 

[springbox]

Well, if you had the T in your starting hand it's definitely a call.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

If you're wondering why I drew 6, it was a bomb pot, so play started on the flop. I had 23458T (guessing those last two) in my hand and an opponent had just drawn 1, so drawing to the minimum straight was a losing proposition. Decided to just reroll the whole thing instead.

Just a guess? That last card is kind of important.

 

[JMC9389]

Fold if you didn't think your mitted hand was good. Brutal runout.

 

[KHarp1]

Unless I misread something, I'm calling.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Just a guess? That last card is kind of important.

Hahahahahahaha, terrible guess, then.

It was not a ten. I forgot while making those up that the ten was such an important card.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Well, if you had the T in your starting hand it's definitely a call.

Amended to reflect that it was something other than a ten. My mistake.

 

[DrStrange]

Missing data -
How did villain draw?
How much dead money in the pot?
Is there any action on the turn - if so what was it?
What is Hero's draw hand - can he hope to be winning that half of the pot?
Is there a straight-flush possibility?
How skilled is villain? Does he know what a "good" hand is for this game?

Can't say which way I lean being too ignorant of the situation to evaluate it.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

is there a potential straight flush? He could have you scooped that way

 

[Jimulacrum]

The questions I've left out are answered in the OP. As to the rest:

How much dead money in the pot?

Not much. IIRC it was 4 in antes, plus bets from me and Villain on the turn. I believe someone called and folded later, but I don't recall exactly. He bet 30 on the end and it was a little less than pot-sized.

Is there any action on the turn - if so what was it?

I don't recall the exact action, but I put in the last aggression. There may have been a third player (who, if in, folded immediately to the 30 on the end).

Is there a straight-flush possibility?

@Chippy McChiperson asked the same thing. No straight flush available.

How skilled is villain? Does he know what a "good" hand is for this game?

I don't think he's overall net +, but he's not a total fish either. He holds his own at a long list of variants, including Scarney (with board kill). I taught him Dramaha a couple months ago, and he's played maybe < 20 hands of Dramaha or Dramaha variants with me. He makes some moves from time to time but understands hand values and wouldn't just be betting nonsense here. A bluff is not impossible but didn't strike me as likely in this spot (especially since he held 5 in the draw, which is part of why I didn't draw to the wheel).

 

[WedgeRock]

Not much. IIRC it was 4 in antes, plus bets from me and Villain on the turn. I believe someone called and folded later, but I don't recall exactly. He bet 30 on the end and it was a little less than pot-sized.

Wasn't this a bomb pot?

 

[ArielVer18]

How many players dealt in? Is draw 6 even allowed? When I was introduced traditional dramaha, draw 5 is allowed only when 4 or less players are dealt in. 5 players is draw max 4, 6 is draw max 3, and 7 is max 2.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Wasn't this a bomb pot?

Yes. Base game is 0.25/0.50. Bomb pot is ante of 1 from everyone, and we were 4-handed.

How many players dealt in? Is draw 6 even allowed? When I was introduced traditional dramaha, draw 5 is allowed only when 4 or less players are dealt in. 5 players is draw max 4, 6 is draw max 3, and 7 is max 2.

As I said above, 4-handed. We generally observe roughly those max draws you mention. Allowing draw 6 cuts it a little close, but it's unlikely to become an issue unless nearly everyone draws 6.

 

[DrStrange]

Thanks for the data. I vote call. Its a thin call. risking 2x to win roughly half of 7x. Hero must have some small chance to win the draw side, but I can't even give hero a 10% chance. Maybe the one card draw was some sort of flush/straight draw that missed - - it could happen that way.

This is a small pot. Hero isn't risking his stack. In other words, this isn't the hand that will define Hero's session. It is easier for most villains to take aggressive action for smaller amounts. < though we know more than a few people here who get feisty for big bets in absolute dollar terms.

Hero drew six cards. His hand is totally random. Not quite sure how villain is going to credit hero with much of anything.

Villain is a novice at this game. About an hour lifetime expertise. This cuts both ways - he could easily misread the relative value of his hand. But perhaps the villain isn't able to make more sophisticated river plays.

Villain might well think an Omaha hand like AATTT is worth a value bet (more so if his draw hand is aces up or better.) Even some other nice looking, but weaker full houses. Villain could be bluffing but that seems unlikely.

Villain could be betting the draw side of the hand. Or even betting a reasonable two-way hand. There are plenty of situations, like this one, where Hero will consider folding a one-way hand.

Villain could easily think he is good both ways and value betting with a lot less than a nutted hand.

Not folding. I'll take my chances only hoping to win half the pot for this price. Let's see villain's hand and learn something -=- DrStrange

 

[WedgeRock]

he could easily misread the relative value of his hand. But perhaps the villain isn't able to make more sophisticated river plays.

Drawing 1 could mean he has a playable mitt hand already. If he had an OESD or 4-to-a-flush, he draws 2, usually. If that made mitt hand included a T, OP gets scooped.

 

[krafticus]

I think I am calling off. He was probably dealt a monster in the hand (maybe a FH/Straight/Flush), and just took another card because why not. Maybe his draw paired his holding, thus giving him 10's full with a made hand.

I'm just not good enough to fold there

 

[WedgeRock]

I think I'm calling $30. Quads is too strong to fold. He said he doesn't have a T, but yet he seems confident. Sounds like a made mitt hand, probably a flush with a pair that made a boat with that runout.

Even if you get scooped, $30 is not going to break your night.

 

[Frogzilla]

If no circus bad beat in play:

Suits matter a lot here I think. Worst configuration is if there is a possible straight flush…that 3/8 boards. Snap folding those

Another bad configuration is if the Q and a 9 are same suit, and that’s the case 10. A lot more likely for someone to hold that 10. I’m folding that one too. 1/8 of the boards.

Other ones I think it’s a marginal spot, could go either way, neither decision seems bad or good. Flip a coin or call or whatever.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I'm folding, and honestly it's a pretty easy one for me. You're hoping to chop at best, and he only needs 1 card to beat your quads. Just because said he didn't have the 10 doesn't mean he's not lying.

 

[WedgeRock]

Just because said he didn't have the 10 doesn't mean he's not lying.

Lying it a situation like that is pretty shitty.

It's worth $30 to see if Villain is a shithead.

 

[krafticus]

I'm folding, and honestly it's a pretty easy one for me. You're hoping to chop at best, and he only needs 1 card to beat your quads. Just because said he didn't have the 10 doesn't mean he's not lying.

Seeing the villain not betting the turn leads to me liking a call better...
I'd also have to see stack sizes, complete betting action, and how things have been going that night (how that player has been playing) to really make an educated decision

 

[Highli99]

Lying it a situation like that is pretty shitty.

It's worth $30 to see if Villain is a shithead.

 

[JMC9389]

I'm with Chippy here. I still say fold. Would a player with 10's or queens full on the turn really lead out on a board like this? They're going to let their opponent do the betting and set the trap. The case 10 hitting on the river is just gravy.

Good chance 9's in the mitt is beat too. Fold and wait for a better spot.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Result: I folded.

I was more or less planning to fold when he bet/called the turn and then bet out the river (where, if he had a naked 10, it would have just improved from weak trips to a mandatory value hand).

I fully expected him to have a pair of nines beaten in the hole, based not just on him drawing 1 but on the simple fact that it's Route 66 and a pair of nines is not even a bluff catcher. So if I'm calling, it's at best to split the pot on the board quads.

Part of why I started verbally prodding him after he bet was to see, if I folded, if I could get him to show the 10. Mainly for psychological satisfaction.

After I asked if he had the 10 and he said no, he kept talking, and it really seemed like he wanted a call. That sealed it for me.

He showed the 10 after I folded, but nothing else.

It's remotely possible my nines were good, but I doubt it. I'm counting this as a good fold.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Lying it a situation like that is pretty shitty.

It's worth $30 to see if Villain is a shithead.

Personally, I consider it fair game to lie when confronted so directly about the contents of your hand. Poker players have no obligation to truthfully answer such questions.

It's actually better policy to always give ambiguous statements, or to reply with a mix of true and false statements, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Personally, I consider it fair game to lie when confronted so directly about the contents of your hand. Poker players have no obligation to truthfully answer such questions.

It's actually better policy to always give ambiguous statements, or to reply with a mix of true and false statements, but that's a whole other discussion.

When players ask me what I have/had, I always answer, "Quads" even if it's not possible. On rare occasions like this one, I'm not lying.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

This is completely different.

In a regular home game I play in with one particular maniac and a few other gambly players, we often play hands where one or more are calling blind or raising. Usually just pre-flop. It's one thing to not be totally honest when asked about the contents of your hand. But it's totally inappropriate (in our game) to lie about whether or not you've looked at your hand. We may be playing poker, but even poker players have to have some integrity.

 

[Jimulacrum]

When players ask me what I have/had, I always answer, "Quads" even if it's not possible. On rare occasions like this one, I'm not lying.

My default response to specific questions like "Do you have the 10?" is "Probably."

If the person asks what I have, I remind him that there is a price on that information and point to my bet.