Paulson & the home market: it has been nearly 20yrs (or has it?) (1 Viewer)

[PocketAces]

Copying and pasting my post from another thread.

Not the first time I’m reading that they stopped producing for security reasons. I didn’t quite get the argument and this mng I decided to do some research (from my phone, not ideal) took me 30 minutes but this is what I have found

I checked their 10K filings from the years around the time they communicated to retailers they’d stop selling to the home market (2014). Checked annual reports from 2010 to 2014, and their revenue split by segment made no mention of a non casino chip line, so I thought this looked like either this line was too small to be reported or these guys were selling from inventory and the activity was effectively being run down.

So I picked (randomly) the 10K filing from March 2003 and this is what I find under the “recent developments” section:

Paulson stopped producing fantasy chips in 2003 and it took them 11years to sell that inventory? For that year the company had $20mm revenues of which 10% of that was sold as “Table equipment and other products” with every other segments being Casino oriented products offering. This tells me that the fantasy line had low demand/too small and/or was unprofitable.

So with that in mind. Is Paulson ever going to come back to selling to the home market? I don’t know how that would make sense when the average customer can buy a cheap plastic product for under 10c/chip.

Now If they were to come back…what happens to the “chip market” really depends on what they are offering. Don’t think we see a crash if they were offering RHC solids

Just my 2c.

 

[Colquhoun]

I remember the Pharaohs, Private Cardroom and WTHC being designed and produced on ChipTalk back in 2005-2006ish….

 

[mipevi]

Also Le Noirs most definitely were introduced after I joined the blue wall in spring of 2007. And the hotstamped Apache offerings even later on.

 

[PocketAces]

I remember the Pharaohs, Private Cardroom and WTHC being designed and produced on ChipTalk back in 2005-2006ish….

Also Le Noirs most definitely were introduced after I joined the blue wall in spring of 2007. And the hotstamped Apache offerings even later on.

Interesting. I don’t know you can reconcile that with the “plans to only sell its casino products to licensed casino operations”. Now you mention it…it is also widely accepted that there was a CDI 98 and 05 run. Wonder if they kept a custom offering for a while? Let’s ask @BGinGA?

Also found this:

 

[mipevi]

"...Paul-Son plans to only sell its casino products to licensed casino operations."

Simple answer is that those plans changed.

 

[PocketAces]

"...Paul-Son plans to only sell its casino products to licensed casino operations."

Simple answer is that those plans changed.

Haha I checked that. The following 10Ks just show it operated in one segment “Casino Products”. Also it looks like Authentic Inc was folded into the larger group in 2004. In 2005 it was described as “inactive”. Maybe I am misunderstanding what the terms “fantasy chips” and “casino quality products” really mean in the context of their general offering. Would love to see a retail brochure from the early 2000s.

The 10Ks provide a ton of interesting info. In 2000 they estimated the Mexico facility alone could produce 10mm+ chips! They also disclose the range of how much they sell their chips for…

 

[cpiaaq]

Would love to see a retail brochure from the early 2000s.

The earliest on the wayback machine is 2006. Still a good read. https://web.archive.org/web/20060511220234/http://www.gpigaming.com/usa_products.shtml

 

[PocketAces]

The earliest on the wayback machine is 2006. Still a good read. https://web.archive.org/web/20060511220234/http://www.gpigaming.com/usa_products.shtml

It is. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Marius L]

@gmunny maybe you have some old GPI brochures?

Or other info to share?

 

[Split]

There was a time where you could order poker chips directly from Paulson. I understand that you could even buy some stuff directly from their store in Las Vegas. Their fantasy lines generally used the THC and RHC molds, although some exist on the web mold and possibly others. I suspect that these direct and retail sales are what they discontinued in 2003. Somewhere around this time Paulson also stopped offering the THC and RHC molds for their fantasy chips.

Although Paulson stopped selling directly to the public, they continued selling to resellers. I’m not 100% clear on the arrangement here, but I seem to recall that Trademark Global was their “official” reseller for home products. The minimum order quantity was rumored to be around 100,000 chips. This is how we got fantasy lines on the Paulson home mold (JB/CDI ‘05) and other molds (Pineapple for Noir and Suits for some Apache stuff). I don’t know whether or not Apache had to work with Trademark Global or if they were able to purchase directly from Paulson. Either way, Paulson has since discontinued all sales to the home market. I can’t recall the exact date offhand, but this was discussed over on the blue wall when it happened, so maybe 2012-2014 at the latest.

This is all based on memory and I’m typing it up on my phone, and it almost certainly contains inaccuracies. However, I hope it’s useful as a starting point for those inclined to research further.

 

[PocketAces]

There was a time where you could order poker chips directly from Paulson. I understand that you could even buy some stuff directly from their store in Las Vegas. Their fantasy lines generally used the THC and RHC molds, although some exist on the web mold and possibly others. I suspect that these direct and retail sales are what they discontinued in 2003. Somewhere around this time Paulson also stopped offering the THC and RHC molds for their fantasy chips.

Although Paulson stopped selling directly to the public, they continued selling to resellers. I’m not 100% clear on the arrangement here, but I seem to recall that Trademark Global was their “official” reseller for home products. The minimum order quantity was rumored to be around 100,000 chips. This is how we got fantasy lines on the Paulson home mold (JB/CDI ‘05) and other molds (Pineapple for Noir and Suits for some Apache stuff). I don’t know whether or not Apache had to work with Trademark Global or if they were able to purchase directly from Paulson. Either way, Paulson has since discontinued all sales to the home market. I can’t recall the exact date offhand, but this was discussed over on the blue wall when it happened, so maybe 2012-2014 at the latest.

This is all based on memory and I’m typing it up on my phone, and it almost certainly contains inaccuracies. However, I hope it’s useful as a starting point for those inclined to research further.

Thanks a lot @Split, this clarifies a lot things!

 

[BGinGA]

There was a time where you could order poker chips directly from Paulson. I understand that you could even buy some stuff directly from their store in Las Vegas. Their fantasy lines generally used the THC and RHC molds, although some exist on the web mold and possibly others. I suspect that these direct and retail sales are what they discontinued in 2003. Somewhere around this time Paulson also stopped offering the THC and RHC molds for their fantasy chips.

Although Paulson stopped selling directly to the public, they continued selling to resellers. I’m not 100% clear on the arrangement here, but I seem to recall that Trademark Global was their “official” reseller for home products. The minimum order quantity was rumored to be around 100,000 chips. This is how we got fantasy lines on the Paulson home mold (JB/CDI ‘05) and other molds (Pineapple for Noir and Suits for some Apache stuff). I don’t know whether or not Apache had to work with Trademark Global or if they were able to purchase directly from Paulson. Either way, Paulson has since discontinued all sales to the home market. I can’t recall the exact date offhand, but this was discussed over on the blue wall when it happened, so maybe 2012-2014 at the latest.

This is all based on memory and I’m typing it up on my phone, and it almost certainly contains inaccuracies. However, I hope it’s useful as a starting point for those inclined to research further.

^ Sounds pretty similar to my recollection without digging into past research and posts.

2004-2005 -ish for the PAULSON advertising mold products (THC Classics, CdIC, National Poker Series, CT's Pharaoh's Club, all via Trademark), 2005-2009 -ish for the Paradise and Pips molds (Paulson le Noir via Sidepot, World TH&C, Pharaoh's Club no-denoms, and hot-stamped offerings -- Private Cardroom, Avalon Club, Grand Cardroom -- via Trademark with Apache involvement on the hot-stamped chips).

I think later custom and semi-custom hot-stamped Pip mold chips (spotted and solids) were handled directly by Apache up until GPI called it quits on home market sales in 2013-2014 -ish. GPI also had another reseller who briefly offered several sets with 41mm chips and oversize inlays (white-red-green-black base colors with white 618 spots and 1-5-25-100 denominations only) around 2010-2011, with little success.

 

[TheDuke]

I remember the Pharaohs, Private Cardroom and WTHC being designed and produced on ChipTalk back in 2005-2006ish….

CDI 05 and classics were available before Pharaohs. I think the GB for Pharoahs took place 2006. It wasn't a pure GB in the sense of being just individual consumers. I remember it was a bit of a partnership that involved some retailers - Apache Poker chips and Holdem Poker chips. Likely because the min order was 100k chips. (The Paulson Chips mold was slightly different on the Pharoahs - there was no additional recess larger than the inlay.) But it was what sparked the creation of CT by Ten. The genesis of the Pharaoh GB started on 2+2.

WHTC, Avalons, PCR, etc. came a few years later - 2008ish. And Le Noir a bit later.

Semi customs on the pip mold was available in solids within a select color palette and the same spot patterns as the mass produced chips.

 

[Colquhoun]

CDI 05 and classics were available before Pharaohs. I think the GB for Pharoahs took place 2006. It wasn't a pure GB in the sense of being just individual consumers. I remember it was a bit of a partnership that involved some retailers - Apache Poker chips and Holdem Poker chips. Likely because the min order was 100k chips. (The Paulson Chips mold was slightly different on the Pharoahs - there was no additional recess larger than the inlay.) But it was what sparked the creation of CT by Ten. The genesis of the Pharaoh GB started on 2+2.

WHTC, Avalons, PCR, etc. came a few years later - 2008ish. And Le Noir a bit later.

Semi customs on the pip mold was available in solids within a select color palette and the same spot patterns as the mass produced chips.

Yeah, I realized the CDI and Classics (My first set) were their predecessors. I think the speculation in the OP was that hey were manufactured earlier (2003) and were sold later.
However, its clear they made fantasy and consumer sets far after that.

Maybe Paulson was claiming they stopped making direct-to-consumer sets like they used to from their retail store?

 

[bergs]

The PNY hotstamp fracs were also via Apache via Trademark. A few of us helped get that started in the early 2010s. Might’ve been the last Paulson channel sale to non-casinos unless the GCRs came after (can’t remember).

 

[Okku]

I went back on wayback machine yesterday morning and saw that CDI chips were sold for like .80 cents a chip and "Paulson Chips" mold chips for like $1.3...
I was stunned.

 

[Colquhoun]

I went back on wayback machine yesterday morning and saw that CDI chips were sold for like .80 cents a chip and "Paulson Chips" mold chips for like $1.3...
I was stunned.

I bought my Classics for .90 each from 5stardeal.com (they're long gone).

Ahhh...the good ol' days.

 

[bezerkus]

Yeah, I did that a few months ago, saw the pdf brochure from GPI and then saw these prices ...

 

[Okku]

TAKE US BACK TO THOSE DAYS!!!!!!!!

Us that got into this recently or let's say in the last two years are impressed what could have been bought back then for so cheap

 

[Lil Tuna]

I went back on wayback machine yesterday morning and saw that CDI chips were sold for like .80 cents a chip and "Paulson Chips" mold chips for like $1.3...
I was stunned.

I still have this old invoice Oscar. If I had a crystal ball, I would have ordered much much more.

 

[Okku]

Paulson sellers talking to those buying back then

 

[PocketAces]

We all joke how cheap it was back then but $575 for a 500ct chip set is incredibly expensive even today when you compare that with what the vast majority of consumers will be more than happy to buy on Amazon, eBay etc - or the cards mold! Now this community knows the difference in quality etc but apart from us, nobody cares

I can’t imagine there was enough demand at the time to justify using capacity to produce one or two fantasy casino line…which is potentially why they stopped their retail activities in 2003 after 5yrs and moved to selling « semi-customs » through online retailers. Had it been a profitable business I’m sure they’d still be offering it.

 

[MJpoker]

We all joke how cheap it was back then but $575 for a 500ct chip set is incredibly expensive even today when you compare that with what the vast majority of consumers will be more than happy to buy on Amazon, eBay etc - or the cards mold! Now this community knows the difference in quality etc but apart from us, nobody cares

I can’t imagine there was enough demand at the time to justify using capacity to produce one or two fantasy casino line…which is potentially why they stopped their retail activities in 2003 after 5yrs and moved to selling « semi-customs » through online retailers. Had it been a profitable business I’m sure they’d still be offering it.

Well said @PocketAces. There are too many cheap chips out there that the majority are happy to won for less than 1/10th the cost. Not to mention all the actual casino chips that have made their way out into the market place.

I agree that if they were highly profitable, they could have figured it out, or would have at least by now, this many years later.

 

[LowerBama1714]

ummmm….maybe they would make a profit if they sold them for more money?

I would pay more than the way back when pricing…..much more. Especially if I could be a part of the design process.

Has anyone called them to tell them how much these chips cost these days?

Just sayin….100k chip MOQ @ $2.50 to the wholesaler. That’s like a quarter million dollars!