PAHWM: 2-7 Triple Draw

Legend5555

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Only moderately interesting hand to come out of our .50/1 mixed game on Saturday.

For those not familiar with Triple Draw, it's 5 card draw low-ball game where the hand rankings are completely reversed from normal poker. The best hand is 75432 with no flush. Straights and flushes are bad, and A is always high. So A5432 is A-5 high, not a straight.

Limit Triple Draw
5 handed
Stacks irrelevant as no one is so short they are likely to get all in in a limit game. UTG+1 is not relevant to the hand.

UTG - losing player. Loves to play and learn, but doesn't put in any study time. Loose and very passive. Just a fun recreational player. Lost his ass in triple draw last time we played months back. Chose this game for the round to get "revenge."

BUTTON - hero. Is solid, somewhere between TAG and LAG in his own mind. Rates Triple Draw as one of his better games.

SB - hero's wife. Solid Triple Draw player. Little more Laggy than Hero. Likes to mix it up with Hero.

BB - SUPER LAG. Probably a 80% vpip in most games. Mostly plays for fun. Knows all the games well and just likes to be aggressive for aggressive's sake. Losing overall, but his aggression keeps him afloat against the lesser players. Knows how to use his image to get paid. Has been known to open the pot and draw 4 cards.

UTG limps.
UTG+2 folds.
HERO (button) Q7643

HERO?
 

Eriks

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I suck at this game, but raise seems prudent
 

upNdown

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Out of position, I’d fold this hand. I don’t much care to vpip without a deuce. With the button and the weak UTG in the pot, I guess I can see flatting and taking a cheap draw.
Is this limit or no limit?
I mean, you’re really drawing to an 8 or a deuce here. I guess a 9 gets you to showdown. I think smart money folds here.
EDIT: So it's limit, thanks, should have seen that. You've got your laggy wife and the super lag in the blinds, so it's probably going to cost you two bets, to draw one card, with 8 or 12 outs? Unless you feel like mixing it up with them because you've got the button and you can snow or whatever, I think it's an easy fold.
 
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Legend5555

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Out of position, I’d fold this hand. I don’t much care to vpip without a deuce. With the button and the weak UTG in the pot, I guess I can see flatting and taking a cheap draw.
Is this limit or no limit?
I mean, you’re really drawing to an 8 or a deuce here. I guess a 9 gets you to showdown. I think smart money folds here.
Limit. It's in the OP.
 

JustinInMN

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On the button against one limper and a credible two card draw, automatic raise.

Now I say this is a two card draw hand because this is deuce-to-seven where straights are bad, you actually need to throw the 6 (and the Q) away so drawing a 5 helps you instead of hurting you. (And if you happen to draw exactly 5-6, then you pitch the 6 again.) Drawing one to 7643 means you are drawing for exactly a deuce or a pretty weak 8 or 9. But 7-4-3 is more than good enough to raise from the button against a loose limper in this game. If you get 3-bet just flat and you are still drawing okay.
 

DrStrange

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The better the field, the more hero needs to raise. How many cards you draw plus the betting decision is strongly hand defining. Limping the button and then drawing one card says a lot about hero's hand.

This is not a two card drawing hand, Hero should be drawing one or folding. Hero needs to catch a two. He can live { and perhaps suffer} with an eight, but it is a pretty awful eight. Let's say we pitch the six and draw two. Well, now Hero still needs a two and then get a five or a six on the second card. Hero made his draw ~ six times harder. And all he got out of it was a draw to a better "eight".

Hero should raise. And if 3-bet, call. Draw one & evaluate the field's draw plus betting action.

Note the button is extra powerful in triple draw. Hero is going to see four betting rounds, but also three drawing rounds. Aside from the first bet, hero gets to act last. I hope Hero is going to benefit from button's power this hand. He will get good information about drawing to a "nine" or even an "eight" that he wouldn't have playing from the blinds.

As a general rule, @upNdown 's guide not to play a hand without a deuce is good idea. I might bend the rule in this hand. But I also might be sorry. Hero could as easily make a terrible "eight" as the third nut and end up paying in full to find out it is a loser.

Hero or goat? Let's see how this plays out -=- DrStrange
 

Legend5555

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Continuing...

HERO raises. This is an ugly drawing hand in Triple Draw no doubt. But the limper is a very weak player and passive. And the BB tends to call and draw too many cards. So HERO feels a 2, 8, 9 are all decent improvements to play against these players if HERO draws only 1. And with position, HERO can gain a lot of info from the draws.

In general HERO wants a 2 in a raising hand, and wants to avoid having a 6 in the opening hand. But again this lineup in this position, this seems like a decent spot to play a bit of a loose hand.

For those that don't play much Triple Draw, you generally want to be drawing to 8 lows or better from the initial deal, especially if action tends to be in multiway. And you want a 2, as without a 2 you can't make a 7. As the hand develops and you see the opponents' draws, you can make a decision on when a 9 might be good enough. And with position against a single opponent drawing 1 on the 3rd draw, you are going to pat all Ts or better, and usually a J. Though patting a J gives you very little value betting propositions on the river. But a J is a 52-55% favorite against a 1 card draw.

Limit Triple Draw
5 handed

UTG limps.
UTG+2 folds.
HERO (button) Q7643

HERO raises.
SB calls.
BB calls.
UTG folds (quite surprising)

SB draws 3.
BB draws 2.

HERO?
 

JustinInMN

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This is not a two card drawing hand, Hero should be drawing one or folding. Hero needs to catch a two. He can live { and perhaps suffer} with an eight, but it is a pretty awful eight. Let's say we pitch the six and draw two. Well, now Hero still needs a two and then get a five or a six on the second card. Hero made his draw ~ six times harder. And all he got out of it was a draw to a better "eight".

8-7-6-4-3 can only beat nines and three combos 8-7-6-5-x. It is #16 on the overall ranking. 8-7-5-4-3 and 8-7-5-4-2 give us the potential to move our hand to #13 and #12 respectively on the ranking, not to mention drawing two gives us more ways to make any of the sevens, including the nuts. Yes, no denying drawing two is harder, but the upside is worth it, and we should be willing to draw more aggressively in position. The villains may still give us the chance to go pat on a 9 or 10 later in the hand depending on how the draws pan out as well.

As a general rule, @upNdown 's guide not to play a hand without a deuce is good idea. I might bend the rule in this hand. But I also might be sorry. Hero could as easily make a terrible "eight" as the third nut and end up paying in full to find out it is a loser.

Agreed, this is pretty good advice as a general rule, and worth pointing out if hero holds both a 7 and a 2 here, he does not have to consider the dilemma of pitching the 6.

That said we are short handed against a weak opponent here. I think raising and drawing to 7-4-3 is sound. All of that said, this would be my default play, but after seeing what villains' draw, I might consider drawing just one to this if opponents are drawing 3+. Anyone drawing this big early is going to have a hard time making an 8 anyway.
 

JustinInMN

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HERO raises.
SB calls.
BB calls.
UTG folds (quite surprising)

SB draws 3.
BB draws 2.

HERO?

Whoa, that is surprising. This is a close call, if either player were taking one or if both were taking two, I would surely toss the 6 as I said above. Against these draws, I might just take one here and keep the six, but that would lead to playing the final round carefully unless we make our seven by then. (And remember, we are essentially drawing to a gutshot here.) I am hoping I can go pat with an 8 or a 9 going into the final draw as well if both players are still drawing. Position is so awesome in this game! But I am getting ahead here.

I think there's a case for either play, but I think taking one let's you take the initiative against two big draws here.
 

JustinInMN

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As played, I'm patting. And raising or reraising.

This is an interesting line, trying to snow with the queen. My only problem with this is we don't hold a deuce, so villains can still make better eights and sevens. I might just draw one and consider snowing wider on the second draw, especially if both villains are drawing multiples.
 

upNdown

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This is an interesting line, trying to snow with the queen. My only problem with this is we don't hold a deuce, so villains can still make better eights and sevens. I might just draw one and consider snowing wider on the second draw, especially if both villains are drawing multiples.
I know your odds are really good against one opponent who's drawing 2 or 3. Not sure how those odds look against two opomemts. I was hoping we'd lose one.
 

DrStrange

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Snowing < bluffing > vs weak players doesn't work as often as one might hope. I make money off of weak players by starting a tighter range of hands and value betting. Players tend to take all three of their draws since one big bet doesn't seem like so much money. And then they look at a pot with a dozen big bets in it vs just one more big bet - just in case you are bluffing and their ten low is best - and call.

No snowing for me until I know most of the field will fold for one bet. I vote draw one and proceed from there.
 

Legend5555

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Continued...

Looks like the SB is feeling very frisky and BB is playing pretty standard for a change. HERO decides to draw 1 and just see what develops. Best result obviously is a deuce or 8, but it's quite likely SB has a deuce drawing 3.

Snowing is not an option vs the BB, but would be against SB. BB will draw all the way to river and will most likely pay off with any 9 if HERO's read on him is correct. Though sometimes he can be surprising and lay down good hands.

Limit Triple Draw
5 handed

UTG limps.
UTG+2 folds.
HERO (button) Q7643

HERO raises.
SB calls.
BB calls.
UTG folds (quite surprising)

SB draws 3.
BB draws 2.
HERO discards Q drawing one.

Pot: 7 small bets
HERO: Q7643 (catches another Q)

SB checks.
BB checks.

HERO, bet or check?
 

Kain8

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Hero (and all other players in drawing games such as this) needs to first take the stub, physically rip up all duplicate cards from your discard so not to get the SAME FUCKING GODDAMN BULLSHIT CARD AS I JUST THREW AWAY, THIS IS HORSESHIT!!!!

If that sort of thing is "frowned upon" or it's viewed as "willful destruction of property" then you just keep on betting. You only drew 1 and the LAGs drew more. Hammer the pot until they're at least drawing equally with you.
 

BEANO52

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Call pre
chance of a 976-- being drawn slim, being good at showdown worse.
Check 1st draw
 

Legend5555

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Continued...

The general rule of Triple Draw, if you are drawing less cards then your opponent(s), you bet. Though my hand is a little on the sketchy side in terms of value. But in triple draw I definitely err on the aggressive side. It is possible we don't have the best draw now, but we have position. And position is HUGE in draw games.

Limit Triple Draw
5 handed

UTG limps.
UTG+2 folds.
HERO (button) Q7643

HERO raises.
SB calls.
BB calls.
UTG folds (quite surprising)

SB draws 3.
BB draws 2.
HERO discards Q drawing one.

Pot: 7 small bets
HERO: Q7643 (catches another Q)

SB checks.
BB checks.
HERO bets.
SB calls.
BB calls.

SB draws 1.
BB draws 2.
HERO discards Q drawing one.

Pot: 5 big bets
HERO: 76543 (catches 5)

SB checks.
BB checks.

HERO action? And presumed draw?
 

upNdown

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If you KNOW one of those guys will go all the way to the 3rd draw, I don't think there's much of a reason to throw in a big bet now, since you presently have zero showdown value. Unless you think there's a chance you can bet now and pat bluff next time.
I sadly check and wave the white flag unless I catch a miracle draw.
 

Bmeister51

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This is an auto fold for me probably let it go preflop honestly. I don’t like playing multi way pots without a deuce. Also with your draw You have more outs that make you a straight then make the nuts. Additionally you’re probably up against players with deuces so even if you make an 8 youre getting scooped. Just my opinion and I’m more of a holder player but I play pretty regularly in a 20-40 mix game with professionals. I’ve been studying mixed a lot and I think the one rule of thumb in mix is play tight tight tight.
 

Bmeister51

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This is an auto fold for me probably let it go preflop honestly. I don’t like playing multi way pots without a deuce. Also with your draw You have more outs that make you a straight then make the nuts. Additionally you’re probably up against players with deuces so even if you make an 8 youre getting scooped. Just my opinion and I’m more of a holder player but I play pretty regularly in a 20-40 mix game with professionals. I’ve been studying mixed a lot and I think the one rule of thumb in mix is play tight tight tight.
One more thing to note here on the third draw you’re in a three way pot and early position who made their hand could be trying a check raise. Given the way the hand played out betting here is burning money IMO
 

Legend5555

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This is an auto fold for me probably let it go preflop honestly. I don’t like playing multi way pots without a deuce. Also with your draw You have more outs that make you a straight then make the nuts. Additionally you’re probably up against players with deuces so even if you make an 8 youre getting scooped. Just my opinion and I’m more of a holder player but I play pretty regularly in a 20-40 mix game with professionals. I’ve been studying mixed a lot and I think the one rule of thumb in mix is play tight tight tight.
It definitely is not a hand I recommend playing by any stretch usually. But I reasonably thought I'd get heads up against BB or UTG, or at worst multiway with BB and UTG, both whom I think are bad. And I have position. Plus the only player truly capable of punishing my play is my wife. Granted, I got into pretty much the worst situation, other than my wife being out on a limb drawing 3.

The BB is not sophisticated enough to check raise and pat trying to force me to break. If he check raises, he just has it and I fold. And my wife isn't about to try anything funny in a multiway pot with him in-between.

And of course the hand would have been much less interesting to talk about if I wasn't playing a fairly trashy hand. ;)

But yeah. In case it's not clear to any non-deuce players out there, you shouldn't really play the 7643 draw.
 

Rhodeman77

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I agree with the others, it is time to check back here and hope for a great 3rd draw
 

FDLmold

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Good thread. I make more in my game from bad Badugi players than bad triple draw players, but my guys are terrible at both. I like seeing strategy other than nlhe and plo.
 

upNdown

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It definitely is not a hand I recommend playing by any stretch usually. But I reasonably thought I'd get heads up against BB or UTG, or at worst multiway with BB and UTG, both whom I think are bad
This sounds good until you think about it. Because you’ve also said that BB is kind of a station who will take all three draws, and maybe show down a loser.
You usually won’t beat a guy like that, in a fixed limit game, when you have lousy cards.
 

Legend5555

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This sounds good until you think about it. Because you’ve also said that BB is kind of a station who will take all three draws, and maybe show down a loser.
You usually won’t beat a guy like that, in a fixed limit game, when you have lousy cards.
Yeah, but when the guy is drawing 3-4 all the time, 7643 can't be that bad.
 

Legend5555

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FINALE...

Yes, betting here is torching money. Especially given that SB only drew 1. Seems like a clear check back discard the 6.

In situations where two players are drawing one against each other, the equities run pretty close. But a lot of times you don't want to bet with the lead unless you improved. It's easy to get check raised by the other one card draw. This is especially true when out of position going into the last draw. If you bet and your opponent in position raises, you are in a horrible spot unless you have a good 8 or better. You have to draw first, and your opponent can make a nearly perfect play against you based on your draw.

In position, it's not quite as painful, but can still suck. You get check raised, you call, your opponent pats, and now you have to figure out if you need to break or not. And you know another bet is almost assuredly coming. The reason it doesn't suck quite as much in position is that you can always make it 3 bets and put the pressure back on them. Or you have the chance to raise the river if you improve after drawing one.

Anyway....

Limit Triple Draw
5 handed

UTG limps.
UTG+2 folds.
HERO (button) Q7643

HERO raises.
SB calls.
BB calls.
UTG folds (quite surprising)

SB draws 3.
BB draws 2.
HERO discards Q drawing one.

Pot: 7 small bets
HERO: Q7643 (catches another Q)

SB checks.
BB checks.
HERO bets.
SB calls.
BB calls.

SB draws 1.
BB draws 2.
HERO discards Q drawing one.

Pot: 5 big bets
HERO: 76543 (catches 5)

SB checks.
BB checks.
HERO checks.

All draw 1. HERO discards 6.

Pot: 5 big bets
HERO: 97543

SB checks
BB bets.
HERO calls.
SB folds.

BB shows J7542. HERO wins.

Pretty standard call on the end. Both players were still drawing 1. A 9 rates to be best in that spot and HERO is getting 6 to 1 on a call. Raising seems optimistic as the SB could still check raise, and BB as loose as he is, is not crazy enough to pay off a raise with worse than HEROs hand.
 
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