PAHWM: $2/5/10 QQ (1 Viewer)

[Payback]

This is a $2/5 uncapped game. Straddle isn't mandatory, but is on about 90% so the game is playing like $5/10 especially given the uncapped buy ins. There is probably 30-40k on the table in total.

Stacks
Hero 2.4k.
Button 4k
CO 4.5k
MP 2k

Player Notes
Button hasn't played too many hands. Bets big when he is in hands and has the lead. He has been checking back about 50% of flops as the PFR. Several other players at the previous table commented about how button is the best player in this room by far and usually crushes the game. Several comments were made about how they avoid playing OOP vs. him.

MP is a neurosurgeon at one of the most prestigious hospitals in the country. Smart as a whip and one of the nicest guys you will meet, but a terrible poker player. He donked off about 7 buy ins the previous night and hasn't slowed down much this evening. Definitely the "spot" for this game.

CO appears to be playing bigger than usual and seems nervous about it. Therefore he has been playing tighter than most of the table.

Hero image is solid at this point. Recently moved to this table from another table and hasn't shown down any hands yet. Has 3 bet once or twice previously PF and won the pot immediately or with a flop Cbet.

Previous important hand
One hand of note with BU and CO. CO raised PF to $20, BU 3bets to $70, flop 3 rags w/2 diamond, CO donk bets $60, BU raises $225, CO calls, turn 3rd diamond CO checks, Button bets $450, CO raises all in for $1700, button almost beats him into the pot. River blanks CO shows AJdd and button mucks. Button then reloads for 3k more.


The hand
Hero has black Qs in the Small Blind.

**The button is talking with the chip runner who is bringing him his 3k in chips so he misses his straddle. This is the only time all night he doesn't.

Preflop:
MP limp, CO makes it $15, button flats, Hero ???

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

$70.

 

[WedgeRock]

 

[Kain8]

A flat would be very tricky but probably not the way to go in this case. A 3-bet looks like you're just trying to squeeze the button out and could lead to more pre-flop shenanigans.

@Chippy McChiperson says $70 and I'd have to agree with that sizing.

 

[DrStrange]

Playing this deep and in horrible position, I think a flat is a fine play. Hero is close to 500bb deep at an active table.

Raising is certainly the conventional line with pocket queens. Once hero catches up, there will be $55 in the pot - so a raise to $70 is a full pot sized bet. Let's go with that.

In my view flatting is better than raising. Position matters more and more as the game gets deeper and deeper. If I were in Hero's shoes, it would be just fine to treat the queens as a pure set mining operation.

DrStrange

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I get not wanting to play a big hand out of position with marginal holdings, but I think turning queens into a set mining operation is just a little too nitty. Raise, hopefully get the riff raff out, and hope for a favorable flop.

 

[Payback]

Playing this deep and in horrible position, I think a flat is a fine play. Hero is close to 500bb deep at an active table.

Raising is certainly the conventional line with pocket queens. Once hero catches up, there will be $55 in the pot - so a raise to $70 is a full pot sized bet. Let's go with that.

In my view flatting is better than raising. Position matters more and more as the game gets deeper and deeper. If I were in Hero's shoes, it would be just fine to treat the queens as a pure set mining operation.

DrStrange

So what's our SB 3 betting range if we end up flatting here with QQ. AA, KK and AKs?

 

[DrStrange]

This is a casino game, so no reason to aim for balance. I could go for a zero percent 3-bet range from the small blind playing so deep, but I think AA is worth a raise hoping to catch CO with his own big pair hand.

Why so nitty? The SPR will be ~15 and Hero is playing a "one pair" type hand from the small blind. The RIO risks are substantial. If someone is getting stacked, it is mostly going to be Hero. The bright spot is the villain raising looks not to be the sort who will blast off his stack without having a hand so Hero might not be put to the test.

 

[Frogzilla]

I think I go $75 here. Hope we get to trap quads. I love trapping quads.

 

[Payback]

The hand
Hero has black Qs in the Small Blind.

**The button is talking with the chip runner who is bringing him his 3k in chips so he misses his straddle. This is the only time all night he doesn't.

Preflop:
MP limp, CO makes it $15, button flats, Hero makes it $70 to go, CO folds, Button calls.

Flop ($165):
Hero ???

 

[Kain8]

Check/Call any flop bet.

 

[Changster]

Bet 75%ish pot.

 

[Frogzilla]

We’re likely ahead but I don’t think we have much fold equity on that board and I suspect a strong button is going to raise us at a high frequency. I check/call for pot control.

 

[colter ripton]

I'm betting. This is a pretty good flop for us. I think I bet somewhere around 100 dollars

 

[Payback]

2 checks
2 bets

This is why poker is awesome.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I'd lead out for about 2/3 pot, or $110.

 

[DrStrange]

This is not a good flop for Hero. Perhaps not bad, but Hero is going to be in a world of hurt vs an aggressive villain. This hand sounds exactly like what the table avoids vs this villain.

Here is Hero's table read: "Button hasn't played too many hands. Bets big when he is in hands and has the lead. He has been checking back about 50% of flops as the PFR. Several other players at the previous table commented about how button is the best player in this room by far and usually crushes the game. Several comments were made about how they avoid playing OOP vs. him."

Yes, Hero is likely ahead of villain's range. Barely. Let's think about what sorts of hands button could hold where he flats the raise and then flats the 3-bet. The top end of button's range is far stronger than the top end of Hero's range while the bottom end of villain's range is far weaker. Hero only holds top set, one pair hands and a few flush draws while villain potentially holds all the sets, the made straight, a sizeable number of combo draws and a pile of total misses. A really good villain knows this and might crush hero with nothing but pure aggression. Hero's queens are quite vulnerable to a deep thinking villain, it is just a question of villain's actual skills and willingness to try and put Hero to the test.

Villain might have missed and be willing to give up to a c-bet. Parts of villain's range absolutely whiffed and have little equity beyond a multi-street bluff. Let's try a $100 bet and see what happens. But I do not advocate hero putting any more chips in the pot unimproved.

I don't hate a check/fold line but I think that is a bit too weak/tight even for me. I do hate a big bet aggressive line. That is the path to a RIO disaster. Hero might take such a line, win a medium sized victory and pat himself on the back, but it takes a lot of $250 winnings to cover a $2,400 loss.

Warning Will Robinson!!! -=- DrStrange

 

[Changster]

Sorry @DrStrange I don’t quite agree with your analysis.

Villain’s preflop flat then cold call is likely 22-TT, AXs, all Broadway combos, and some suited connectors and one gappers. It’s still quite wide and by definition much weaker than hero’s range. The top end of the button’s range is definitely not far stronger than the SB’s range. The SB is the worst position and its continue range vs a CO open is strong.

I don’t know what kind of SB strategy hero usually plays but personally I like a 3 bet or fold strategy. I’m 3betting my entire “SB vs cutoff RFI” range.

On the flop, hero’s bet is for protection and value against so many combos.

Sure villain could wake up with a monster like sets or two pair or that QT combo despite hero’s QQ massive blocker. But it doesn’t matter.

This is deep stack poker. You live for moments like this.

 

[colter ripton]

Sorry @DrStrange I don’t quite agree with your analysis.

Villain’s preflop flat then cold call is likely 22-TT, AXs, all Broadway combos, and some suited connectors and one gappers. It’s still quite wide and by definition much weaker than hero’s range. The top end of the button’s range is definitely not far stronger than the SB’s range. The SB is the worst position and its continue range vs a CO open is strong.

I don’t know what kind of SB strategy hero usually plays but personally I like a 3 bet or fold strategy. I’m 3betting my entire “SB vs cutoff RFI” range.

On the flop, hero’s bet is for protection and value against so many combos.

Sure villain could wake up with a monster like sets or two pair or that QT combo despite hero’s QQ massive blocker. But it doesn’t matter.

This is deep stack poker. You live for moments like this.

^^ this exactly

Of course he could have a set. Any time your in a pot your opponent could have a set. He could also have two pair. Playing this deep and recently losing a big pot I expect villains range to be pretty wide here.

I think a flopped straight is super unlikley given your q blockers.

Flatting preflop is way too soft and if you take a check fold line here on the flop you might as well just cash out and go home.

I'm certainly not arguing for going crazy and trying to play for stacks at this point, but you are very likley ahead and you have to try and get some value from this hand. Even out of position.

 

[Payback]

The hand
Hero has black Qs in the Small Blind.

**The button is talking with the chip runner who is bringing him his 3k in chips so he misses his straddle. This is the only time all night he doesn't.

Preflop:
MP limp, CO makes it $15, button flats, Hero makes it $70 to go, CO folds, Button calls.

Flop ($165):
Hero checks, Button Bets $175, Hero ???

 

[Frogzilla]

I think Button shows up with enough sets and combo draws with this huge sizing that raising is out of the question.

Fold to the overbet is on the table, but we have the gutterball and double block the QTs that would do this for protection.

I call.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Call. We are ahead so much of the time. We don’t want to blow him off of his bluffs/semi bluffs and don’t want to put in a lot more money with a check raise for the times we are crushed.

Plan on checking just about any turn except for a 10. Then I’m value betting for potential sets and flush draws that won’t call on the river if they don’t improve.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Call. Order whiskey for planned kick in balls.

 

[DrStrange]

When Hero is ahead, he is basically on the fat end of a flip when villain wants to risk a pile of chips. When Hero is behind, he is drawing to six outs or less. Of course, villain could always be bluffing with air . . . .

Coordinated flops are bad for over-pair type hands. Ten times worse out-of-position and deep stacked.

My question for hero: Are you willing to stack off 500bb on an over-pair? If not 500bb, how many bets are you willing to risk? Best to consider these questions now rather than after a bunch of chips are in the pot.

Call me chicken, but I would be done with this hand -=- DrStrange

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I'm calling. Sets are in his range, sure, but so are many more combos of pocket pairs, plus flush draws and air, and we have two blockers to the nuts.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I'm calling. Sets are in his range, sure, but so are many more combos of pocket pairs, plus flush draws and air, and we have two blockers to the nuts.

Yeah, next card could get me to fold, but there is enough here to see what's coming up.

 

[JustinInMN]

Okay just catching up here.

Pre, from the small blind if I have a 3- betting range, QQ just has to be there and we're only against a late button open. I tend to favor bigger sizing from the blinds than other position, I am thinking at least 4x and I like hero's sizing here.

On the flop I get the argument that the best bat of villian's raise and call 3 bet range contains sets. But I think a lot of his range contains one pair hands or overcards that are Broadway gutters. I think it is to hero's advantage to bet to collect value in the first case and deny free cards in the second.

I am not going to worry much about sets, as @colter ripon said, villian can have sets on almost any board. He has a lot of other stuff too. We'll take our lumps when the sets happen.

In general, I am probably c-betting 80% of flops here against the preflop flatter. This flop is still good enough.

Checking is tough because now we can't interpret villian's bet. Is villian really nutty or just trying to exploit a weak action. If it's the latter we are playing this hand to station when the board is fairly wet. That seems like a tall order.

 

[Frogzilla]

But I think a lot of his range contains one pair hands or overcards that are Broadway gutters. I think it is to hero's advantage to bet to collect value in the first case and deny free cards in the second.

I am not going to worry much about sets, as @colter ripon said, villian can have sets on almost any board. He has a lot of other stuff too. We'll take our lumps when the sets happen.

In general, I am probably c-betting 80% of flops here against the preflop flatter. This flop is still good enough.

He flatted the open, and is a good player, so I’d discount the top of the range since those are usually in a 3-bet range. He flatted a fairly large 3-bet (though we are really deep and he is in position so this flat is wide) so I’d discount the bottom of the range. I think this board smacks what’s left over pretty hard, and villain is going to show with an unusually large frequency of sets.

 

[BGinGA]

I keep going back to these two things in the OP:

Button hasn't played too many hands. Bets big when he is in hands and has the lead. He has been checking back about 50% of flops as the PFR. Several other players at the previous table commented about how button is the best player in this room by far and usually crushes the game. Several comments were made about how they avoid playing OOP vs. him.

One hand of note with BU and CO. CO raised PF to $20, BU 3bets to $70, flop 3 rags w/2 diamond, CO donk bets $60, BU raises $225, CO calls, turn 3rd diamond CO checks, Button bets $450, CO raises all in for $1700, button almost beats him into the pot. River blanks CO shows AJdd and button mucks. Button then reloads for 3k more.

Mostly because the first part seems true (Button bets big when he is in hands), but the latter part sure seems to indicate he gets married to his big starting hands and doesn't pay enough attention to board texture... I certainly wouldn't characterize him as the best player in the room based on his play vs the CO. Seems more of a tight bully than a skilled player, to me.

I would have led out on the flop with a pot-size bet. But as played, I'm calling his (not surprising) overbet, and relatively sure that QQ is ahead. And I expect to get his entire stack if a 10 hits, and I may not even need it.

 

[Payback]

I keep going back to these two things in the OP:




Mostly because the first part seems true (Button bets big when he is in hands), but the latter part sure seems to indicate he gets married to his big starting hands and doesn't pay enough attention to board texture... I certainly wouldn't characterize him as the best player in the room based on his play vs the CO. Seems more of a tight bully than a skilled player, to me.

I would have led out on the flop with a pot-size bet. But as played, I'm calling his (not surprising) overbet, and relatively sure that QQ is ahead. And I expect to get his entire stack if a 10 hits, and I may not even need it.

Obviously they were all wrong, Hero is the best player in the room