Opera house chip mystery

41Pickup

Two Pair
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
252
Reaction score
824
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
IMG_0280.PNG
Many watched and participated in the debate regarding the Opera house casino chips I had posted for sale. The thread locked when I marked it sold. Just after it locked David Spragg weighed in with very relevant info. I figured I would post what David Spragg posted on www.thechipboard.com regarding the unicorn mold also being used for compression clay.
 

justsomedude

Straight Flush
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
8,845
Reaction score
14,515
Location
SoDak
Just saw that too. Certainly helps answer some questions. Although I'm not sure why the same guy said "plastic only" just 4 weeks ago. Perhaps he decided to dig a little deeper...

Whatever, it's water under the bridge at this point, and I'm readying my apologies if the buyers confirm as clay. (y) :thumbsup:

PS: mods - this isn't really a Classified, and should probably be moved to Poker Chip General for ongoing discussion.
 

41Pickup

Two Pair
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
252
Reaction score
824
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
Just saw that too. Certainly helps answer some questions. Although I'm not sure why the same guy said "plastic only" just 4 weeks ago. Perhaps he decided to dig a little deeper...

Whatever, it's water under the bridge at this point, and I'm readying my apologies if the buyers confirm as clay. (y) :thumbsup:

PS: mods - this isn't really a Classified, and should probably be moved to Poker Chip General for ongoing discussion.


Most folks wound just apologize
 

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
15,214
Reaction score
25,548
Location
America's High-Five
I wish I knew more about the process of making chips, both compression clay and injection molded (I think I have a better idea of how this works).

Anyway, nice to see that your chip sacrifice wasn't wasted, as your opinion appears validated, @41Pickup.
 

leo822

Flush
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,099
Reaction score
1,566
Location
...
I expressed confusion a few times about these chips in your first ad, and am happy to admit confusion and wonder again. There's plenty I do not know about these chips, such as: who made them, who owned the mold, whether they are plastic, whether they are clay, whether they are moon-cheese, or perhaps a highly compressed glob of the junk I scrapped out from under my big toenail. Which, come to think of it, might actually weigh more than 7 grams. :p

No dude...sorry..you don't get to rewrite history. You did not just "express confusion". You outright called Lee a shyster.

"When I see Classifies that attempt to abuse that trust, or mislead buyers with crafty wording and tongue-twisting descriptions, I become offended and then downright angry."

Lee explained what he thought these LAS VEGAS CASINO chips were made of and offered them for sale.
They're from an an actual LAS VEGAS CASINO
They are unique in color and mold
They are less than what most pay for obscure RHC chips

No big deal. A unique item for a particular buyer.

But as usual..some had to be the smartest in the room and infer that Lee PURPOSELY MISLEAD people and then say how THEY could prove they were this or that.

Facepalm...really? As long as Lee has been on this forum and this is the amount of trust or even courtesy he has built?

So if you wanna call someone a liar and a crook...stand by your words and don't try to deflect attention off what you said with humor about toe jam and the like. Just man up and say either you're sorry or that we should ban this crook from the forums.
 

justsomedude

Straight Flush
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
8,845
Reaction score
14,515
Location
SoDak
Most folks wound just apologize

You're absolutely right @41Pickup!

I am sorry for side-tracking and "crapping" on your for sale threads. My attempts to clarify the provenance of the chips snowballed into a negative experience had by all, and never should have been done publicly - if at all. Furthermore, I apologize for sabotaging one of your sales. The information now available clearly demonstrates the time frame (and type) of manufacture for these chips, putting them in the "100% clay" classification.

Again, you - and all of PCF - have my sincerest apologies for turning your sales into an ugly info-quest.

Sincerely,
Andrew
justsomedude
 

MegaTon44

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
3,278
Reaction score
9,832
Location
Collegeville, PA
You're absolutely right @41Pickup!

I am sorry for side-tracking and "crapping" on your for sale threads. My attempts to clarify the provenance of the chips snowballed into a negative experience had by all, and never should have been done publicly - if at all. Furthermore, I apologize for sabotaging one of your sales. The information now available clearly demonstrates the time frame (and type) of manufacture for these chips, putting them in the "100% clay" classification.

Again, you - and all of PCF - have my sincerest apologies for turning your sales into an ugly info-quest.

Sincerely,
Andrew
justsomedude
You're an asshole, Andrew. I demand penance.

(I want to name something crazy to do, but I believe you'd actually do it and hurt yourself :p)
 

41Pickup

Two Pair
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
252
Reaction score
824
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
You're absolutely right @41Pickup!

I am sorry for side-tracking and "crapping" on your for sale threads. My attempts to clarify the provenance of the chips snowballed into a negative experience had by all, and never should have been done publicly - if at all. Furthermore, I apologize for sabotaging one of your sales. The information now available clearly demonstrates the time frame (and type) of manufacture for these chips, putting them in the "100% clay" classification.

Again, you - and all of PCF - have my sincerest apologies for turning your sales into an ugly info-quest.

Sincerely,
Andrew
justsomedude


Apology accepted, let's move on
 

One Eyed Dollar

Flush
Site Vendor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
1,872
Reaction score
4,724
Location
Colorado
You're an asshole, Andrew. I demand penance.

(I want to name something crazy to do, but I believe you'd actually do it and hurt yourself :p)
I think he should have to change his avatar to the Phantom of the Opera since he tried to sabotage the other thread. :sneaky:
 

One Eyed Dollar

Flush
Site Vendor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
1,872
Reaction score
4,724
Location
Colorado
On another positive note, I'd never heard of the Opera House Casino before this sale. I'm a fan of opera in addition to poker (that's probably a pretty small overlap in a Venn diagram), so I was especially intrigued by the chips. I went poking around on eBay for samples and found that they also made a bunch of custom holiday and event chips. I bought this awesome one, which is my new favorite card protector:

valkyrie chip.PNG
 

John Conor

3 of a Kind
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
610
Reaction score
1,562
Location
MA
Watched the previous threads with interest but no dog in the fight. I did hope they were clay, but went back and forth in my mind looking at all the pictures I could find online. The cotton candy colors are so sick and if I could have found a use I probably would have made an offer.

Did anyone ask @Spinettis Gaming for an opinion, they seem to be steeped in Vegas casino history?

How cool if these turn out to be one of the rarest clay chip sets ever!
 

justsomedude

Straight Flush
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
8,845
Reaction score
14,515
Location
SoDak
lol...but in all seriousness props for being stand up enough to apologize.

Thank you for the note... but I fucked up. Apologizing is simply the right thing to do. It shouldn't be commended.

I now wear the jackass avatar of shame for 30 days... or perhaps, in perpetuity... since I'm the top pro at putting my foot in my mouth.

I feel like I have to use this graphic often...

upload_2017-8-2_12-4-26.png
 

namsupak

Two Pair
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
474
Reaction score
279
Location
WV
Although, out of all of this - and on a lighter note - I am kind of glad that this fiasco brought the "does it hold a flame test" to the chip verification process. That's a little bit of WTF you don't get to see every day.

So is there going to be a trash/burn your chips thread now?
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,539
Reaction score
39,366
Location
Atlanta
Sorry for the delay in getting this posted here, but Wednesday was a crazy day....


Very glad to see David Spragg provide some definitive information on the subject of the unicorn mold and chips (and reversing his previous stance from a month earlier). I did a lot of extensive research late Tuesday night, and David's latest response backs up everything I dug up.... all of which led to the chips in question having been produced with Burt Co. equipment, but after it had been sold by Alonzo Burt.

Some background info and timelines are included below, along with occasional possible reasons for the confusion and mid-stream changes of opinion by various experts about all this (all pieced together from a variety of sources, and believed to be pretty accurate):

  • The unicorn mold was owned by Marion & Co. in NY, who used it to produce and sell injection-molded chips during the 1980s and beyond (and possibly earlier). I cannot find proof of an earlier ownership, but that does not discount the possibility. There are indeed samples of injection-molded unicorn chips sold by Marion from this time period, as noted by Robert Eisenstadt.
  • John Kendall, a manager at Burt Company, bought the company in 1985. He subsequently started Chipco International, and.sold the Burt Co. molds and other equipment and assets in 1988.
  • Jim Blanchard was the production manager at Burt Company, and using the Burt Company assets purchased from Kendall, founded Atlantic Standard Molding (ASM) in 1988 -- continuing on the long tradition of the old Burt Company and making clay chips.
  • The unicorn mold was not one of those assets, so it makes sense that Jim Blanchard was unaware of any clay chips ever having been produced using that mold (he was the production manager at Burt Co, and certainly would have been aware of it's use had it happened during his time at Burt Co.).
  • The unicorn mold was likely sold (or usage licensed) by Marion & Co. to John Kendall sometime between 1985 and 1988. As David Spragg noted, the mold was used by John Kendall to produce clay chips, prior to being converted back to injection-mold use by Chipco International.
It is my (unconfirmed) belief that Kendall produced clay chips on the unicorn mold while still in possession of the Burt Co assets (1985-1988), and stockpiled those chips to be sold later (with hot-stamping added later as needed). This would explain how hot-stamped clay unicorn cash checks were sold to Opera House in 1991, and much later, hot-stamped clay unicorn tournament chips were supplied to the same casino in 2001 (long after the assets required to produce them had been sold, and also long after the unicorn mold had been converted back to plastic injection-molding used to produce Chipco plastic unicorn chips).

I'm not sure where I can go to verify that last part. It's unlikely that any of the current GOCC employees were at Chipco back then (or more likely, pre-Chipco). Marion Co. rarely provides historical information to outsiders, and unfortunately, John Kendall is not easily available for comment these days.

The unicorn mold is currently offered as an injection-molded plastic chip by Game On Chip Company (founded by ex-employees of now-defunct Chipco International). It has also been offered as a ceramic chip blank relief marking since 2013 by Palm Gaming International, who purchased many of the Chipco assets when the company was dissolved.

Side note: Opera House was a Burt Company customer (HHR chips), and much later, a Chipco customer with many different ceramic designs ordered from 1995-2002. Makes sense that they would have ordered the interim clay unicorn chips from John Kendall, too -- both the 1991 chips and the tourney set in 2001.


* sources for the above include online documentation provided by David Spragg, Jim Blanchard, Allan Myers, Dave Harber, Robert Eisestadt, and content on pokerchipforum.com, and chiptalk.net.
 
Top Bottom