Need help with a poker couple that's destroying my games (1 Viewer)

[Godzilla28]

Here is background. I play mostly home games and host regularly. Here are the different games I host:

1) Yearly Oktoberfest Donkament - $20 buyin 2000 chips. Alcohol is flowing, chips are flying and everyone has a fun time.

2) Weekly .50/$1 NL Cash game $50-$150 buyin. People bring some beers, music and I have different promotions like 7 Deuce, Bad Beat Jackpot, etc. People still enjoy the game but a little more serious. Most buyin for $200-$300 and average win is like $200 profit.

3) Monthly $1/$1 Deep Stack Cash game $200-$800 buyin. This is for the serious players. We still have pizza, drinks and music but people concentrate on the poker much more in this game. People buyin around $500 and average profit is $600.

I started inviting this couple about a year and half ago and they play in all three of my different games. They are very serious about poker and win regularly in all the games. I started seeing some regulars not show up anymore. And then I had a handful of people tell me they were losing too much and that they were uncomfortable playing with the two of them on the table. And because when they win they win big...for instance, at least one of them would profit $400 in my weekly cash game and sometimes both. So even though nobody has blatantly accused them, I have received subtle hints that people think there is some collusion or slowplay going on. There is nothing blatant going on and nothing that would be easy to prove.

I have lost around 5 players already due to them and I see a few more cracking due to the mounting losses. I dont have a problem with playing against better players for my own education and they are great people off the table. But how would you guys handle this situation? And should we really penalize people for being good poker players?

Thanks in advance for any help or your thoughts.

 

[stocky]

Will your game survive with them still playing?

 

[lnlver]

That's why casinos don't allow couples to play at the same table. Sometimes even the possibility of collusion is enough to tilt the other players. You could just invite one to play at a time.

 

[stocky]

Possibly invite them to the monthly big stack game. And politely let them know the weekly game is more about having fun for the rest of the guys and are put off by their skill level.

 

[jbutler]

That's why casinos don't allow couples to play at the same table.

I don't know what casinos you have been to but none I have played in impose any limitation on where couples sit. Neither does the WSOP as evidenced by Doc Sands and his fiancé sitting at the same featured table very deep in the main event a few years ago.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Here is background. I play mostly home games and host regularly. Here are the different games I host:

1) Yearly Oktoberfest Donkament - $20 buyin 2000 chips. Alcohol is flowing, chips are flying and everyone has a fun time.

2) Weekly .50/$1 NL Cash game $50-$150 buyin. People bring some beers, music and I have different promotions like 7 Deuce, Bad Beat Jackpot, etc. People still enjoy the game but a little more serious. Most buyin for $200-$300 and average win is like $200 profit.

3) Monthly $1/$1 Deep Stack Cash game $200-$800 buyin. This is for the serious players. We still have pizza, drinks and music but people concentrate on the poker much more in this game. People buyin around $500 and average profit is $600.

I started inviting this couple about a year and half ago and they play in all three of my different games. They are very serious about poker and win regularly in all the games. I started seeing some regulars not show up anymore. And then I had a handful of people tell me they were losing too much and that they were uncomfortable playing with the two of them on the table. And because when they win they win big...for instance, at least one of them would profit $400 in my weekly cash game and sometimes both. So even though nobody has blatantly accused them, I have received subtle hints that people think there is some collusion or slowplay going on. There is nothing blatant going on and nothing that would be easy to prove.

I have lost around 5 players already due to them and I see a few more cracking due to the mounting losses. I dont have a problem with playing against better players for my own education and they are great people off the table. But how would you guys handle this situation? And should we really penalize people for being good poker players?

Thanks in advance for any help or your thoughts.

Is it possible that some of these people are just losing players, and are using the couple as an excuse to back out of playing, while not having to admit that they just aren't very good? Without multiple specific examples, I'd be very hesitant to accuse the couple of anything. If you feel they are too serious for the smaller stakes games, why don't you just explain that to them like Stocky suggested? Or conversley, tell the people complaining about them that you have no evidence of collusion at all, and until you do, you're not going to uninvite people just because they are winning players. Honestly it sounds like the old players maybe have a little chip stack envy, and need to tighten their game up a little bit.

 

[pltrgyst]

How do you handle seating? Is it by random draw?

 

[Mesnik44]

Do what I did with a couple at my home game. After a few complaints about gamesmanship, and chip dumping by the wife, I stopped inviting them, and put a password on my website that is also my reservation site.

It's not worth it. My regulars have been coming over to my house since 2007, and I value them over the couple who are new.

 

[RowdyRawhide]

How are your numbers any way to do two tables. If not do you think random seating would help. do they always sit in the same positions form each other.

 

[moose]

Losing players are eventually going to wise up and quit regardless of who they lose to. I have found over the years that to keep any cash game running you need a minimum of two new regulars and one semi-regular every year to replace those that fade away.

 

[slisk250]

moose makes some sense. If it is cash games, I'm less worried. I play a regular game and there are two players I don't often engage. They are good and dangerous. I'm patient. The other donkeys give them all the chips. If I get in a good spot I'll take them on but I think they know my play well enough that when I come after them I got the nutz.

 

[NiceShot]

Give them my address. They can play in my game. My crew is a tough crowd to play against.

To your dilemna, what do you value more? Good players or bad players? The point may be moot if you have no players left so I get your predicament, but honestly the challenging players help me up my game which helps me to play in live games outside the home. If your goal is a non-serious more mediocre or lower skilled crowd then maybe your invite list becomes tailored to the type of players you want there.

I actually run different games depending on my invite list. Low stakes with couples and low skilled players where we drink, eat, and be merry is one kind where no one cares. Then I have a much higher buy in game where the guys are serious and a higher skill level invite list. Lastly, I have a middle of road game with the neighbors won't get pissed if they lose a couple buy ins.

 

[Godzilla28]

I get about 10-15 people and I'll split to 2 tables when I have 13. But lately with all the dropouts, I am getting 8-10 only.

We draw for seats so it is random where they sit. The complaints center around how they are in a lot of pots together with a lone raiser. And we all know it is harder to win against a few opponents versus heads up.

I also understand that fish play bad and will eventually give up because of losses. But I think the fish will survive longer if the losses are gradual with an occasional lucky win night. Right now at my weekly and monthly game, they are losing 2-3 buyins every time. It's like killing the goose that lays the golden egg kinda thingy if you dont mind the mixed analogies.

NiceShot - where are you located in California? My game is in San Jose. I kinda wanted to do the different game level events but since players at games have become scarce, it ends up to be a similar makeup at all 3 games. This couple loves to win and they are winning players at all 3 of my games. I was thinking about talking to them that they might've outgrown our games and they should play higher stakes and competition at casinos or other home games. And maybe I'll invite them occasionally to the higher level game.

Thanks for all the great responses so far.

 

[grandgnu]

So even though nobody has blatantly accused them, I have received subtle hints that people think there is some collusion or slowplay going on. There is nothing blatant going on and nothing that would be easy to prove.

I have lost around 5 players already due to them and I see a few more cracking due to the mounting losses.

This sounds like the problem will get worse before it gets better. Cheating is a serious accusation, and while it may be unfounded, such accusations spread quickly and losing players are quick to assume that MUST be the reason they are losing because they don't always recognize their bad play.

Is this couple winning EVERY session they play? Because that might be suspicious if both of them NEVER lose.

Whatever the case, it sounds like keeping them in the game may cause your game to crumble, and then everyone loses. You might take them aside and explain that you've been losing attendees because they feel greatly outclassed by the couples skill level. This way you're paying them a compliment, while also presenting what a difficult situation this puts you in. Let them know that you don't personally have any problem with them, but that you're concerned the entire game will dissolve because they're just so good.

Then ask them if they were you, how would they handle the situation? I guess my go-to would be to plan to limit them to the once-a-month game and exclude them from the weekly game in an effort to lessen the impact they are having on your player base (and to try and recoup the lost players). Losing once/month to a couple is going to have a vastly different psychological aspect than losing every single week to them methinks.

 

[<°)))><)]

Even without collusion it seems obvious from what you're writing that their soft playing each other most surely harms the game's balance.
I would invite them to the big game only, and it would be a one-person invite.
Most importantly, you're home they seem to cause a trouble. Leave the troubles out of home ) Unlike a casino, you can choose who you play with and won't attract dozens of new customers, don't let your games go dry.

 

[QuiQuog]

I don't know who this couple is to you, but if they're close friends you should talk to them and let them know why they shouldn't come. If they're as good as you say, then they didn't get that way at your house. They obviously have games elsewhere to play. They will understand. If they don't understand and come off as offended, then it would seem that they're there for the fishing and they don't belong there. If you don't know them that well then you have the option to either talk to them with the same assumptions of them having other games to play, or just not invite them.

The guys in my neighborhood, myself included, are not strong players. I'm sure they wouldn't want to play a game that they have no hope of winning sometimes due to a couple of ringers. They want to have a good time and visit. Having a poker pro at the table scooping up all of our money wouldn't be fun. Especially with the appearance of collusion, justified or not.

 

[Mental Nomad]

The complaints center around how they are in a lot of pots together with a lone raiser.

If this is a reality, and not just a false perception, you have a problem. Even if not fully intentional, if they're going even a little more aggressively when they're both involved in a pot, it makes a big difference and is definitely collusion.

If.

You should feel OK telling them something like:
"A lot of my players have told me they're uncomfortable with the two of you at our friendly games. You're doing very well, and they're not, and it's causing the game to slowly but steadily break up. Some people suspect that the two of you are colluding, but I know you're better poker players than most of them. But regardless the reason, too many people are uncomfortable playing against two people who routinely do so well against them. I don't want to be in the business of recruiting fish; I want to play poker with friends. I'm going to ask that you limit your attendance to the <so-and-so> game, because if you keep attending the other games, I've become convinced those games will just die for everyone."

 

[Gear]

Are they ever in heads-up pots against each other? How do those play out?

I regularly play in the same tournaments as Wifey, often at the same table, and we have never colluded. (That is, no more than anyone else, e.g. implicit collusion when a short stack is all-in.)

Occasionally someone will make a joke about it at the beginning of a tournament, or if we end up seated next to each other, but no one ever seriously thinks there is collusion between us -- ESPECIALLY after they've seen us play heads-up against each other.

If they are regularly in 3-way pots with one other player, that's a huge red flag in my book.

 

[slisk250]

I like except for mentioning the collusion. Do it like a casino would if they suspected a small time card counter. That person would probably be told, "Sir, your game is just to good for us."

Nothing to gain accusing them of something your could never prove or provide evidence for.

 

[grandgnu]

Yeah, don't mention the colluding, in doing so it may come across as you suspecting it too. Just say that players are leaving and listing their attendance and success as the reason, they just feel they can't compete against those two and that they're too good. You're paying them a compliment rather than accusing them of wrongdoing that is unproven, and still giving them an option to attend, just with a reduced frequency.

 

[guinness]

The solution is simple.

Fuck the colluding theories, fuck any investigation, fuck the speculations. Contact your 5 friends and ask if they would come back if the couple didn't play. If yes, tell the couple they can't play anymore because people think they are too good and have stopped coming. If you think its rare for good players to be banned from games for winning too much you are wrong. In NO WAY am I an exceptional poker player but I'm banned from all the husband games in my town due to perception and it doesn't bother me a bit. If the couple players are good (you should know this from playing with them), they're good because they play in other games on top of yours. Hacking them off for the honest reasons stated will give them a story at whatever other games they attend.

LOL casinos barring couples from playing at the same table. Doesn't happen.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I mean that of course is another option, but just because someone says they'll come back doesn't mean that they will, and if they don't you are out even two more people. Obviously do what's best for the game, and if disinviting the two really will help your game grow then you gotta do what you gotta do.

I too have been banned from a couple low stakes games with friends because I kept winning too much, and I will say I must have thinner skin, because it did hurt my feelings a little. I understood the reasoning, but that didn't mean I liked it.

 

[QuiQuog]

I feel so fortunate that I've never been accused of being too good.

 

[guinness]

I mean that of course is another option, but just because someone says they'll come back doesn't mean that they will, and if they don't you are out even two more people.

Sure, but the OP knows that answer better than us in order to move ahead with that decision or not. Clearly the Degen EcoSystem is suffering due to a couple of good players.

FYI, I lost many players because my game was extremely aggro with nlhe and high variance games (PLO, SOHE, TAHOE). The .25/.50 game played more like 2/5+. I addressed this issue by having two tables: A dedicated NLHE .25/.50 table with $100 max buy and another .25/.50 table that played uncapped with mix games. Maybe OP can introduce two games, one .25/.50 table with max $60 and another 1/1 table with max watever. I'm apt to believe the couple would play where the bigger stacks are located.

 

[Godzilla28]

I feel so fortunate that I've never been accused of being too good.

Me too. LOL. People are fighting to get this fish into their weekend games. Some Fridays, I get 4 invitations to different games.

 

[Godzilla28]

Sure, but the OP knows that answer better than us in order to move ahead with that decision or not. Clearly the Degen EcoSystem is suffering due to a couple of good players.

FYI, I lost many players because my game was extremely aggro with nlhe and high variance games (PLO, SOHE, TAHOE). The .25/.50 game played more like 2/5+. I addressed this issue by having two tables: A dedicated NLHE .25/.50 table with $100 max buy and another .25/.50 table that played uncapped with mix games. Maybe OP can introduce two games, one .25/.50 table with max $60 and another 1/1 table with max watever. I'm apt to believe the couple would play where the bigger stacks are located.

I like the idea of 2 different levels and stakes. Now I just need to build the poker player base to get to two tables maybe 6-7 handed each.

 

[Godzilla28]

I like the idea of 2 different levels and stakes. Now I just need to build the poker player base to get to two tables maybe 6-7 handed each.

But what if the couple follows the fish to the lower tables. Would you guys ban people for fish hunting or whatever it's called in poker-speak? There's this Rocker guy (plays in a local band) that is atrociously bad and hasnt won significantly since last winter. And when we used to split to two tables and Rocker guy would be at Table #2, I have noticed that Guy Villain from the couple would volunteer to go to Table #2 also. Is this grounds for banning? What is to prevent Villain Guy from following the fish around and stating that he wants to play lower stakes?

 

[QuiQuog]

But what if the couple follows the fish to the lower tables. Would you guys ban people for fish hunting or whatever it's called in poker-speak? There's this Rocker guy (plays in a local band) that is atrociously bad and hasnt won significantly since last winter. And when we used to split to two tables and Rocker guy would be at Table #2, I have noticed that Guy Villain from the couple would volunteer to go to Table #2 also. Is this grounds for banning? What is to prevent Villain Guy from following the fish around and stating that he wants to play lower stakes?

I think you don't want them there, correct? It's clear that they're there for the fishing. You don't want your friendly game to be preyed upon. Explain it to them in whatever words you want. They have other games to play at.

 

[Trihonda]

I agree, it's apparent you think they're going to kill your game. Your regs are complaining, you've made observations that trouble you, and you're even hinting at potential for collusion.

Ultimately, you're going through all the trouble of hosting (which is enough work as it is), and though I don't like banning people, I've disinvited people for just not fitting in. For me, I care more about "fit" than skill level (though skill can factor into "fit"). If someone is over the top skilled, and then they're introducing their sig-other into the equation, and it's affecting my attendance, I'd for sure leave them off the invite list. If they questioned it, explain like has been already said, that your regs are in full revolt due to the difference in skill levels. Offer to host an occasional super-degen fest of very skilled players and tell them they'll certainly get an invite for that.

And to the idea you could invite one and not the other, I ran into that, where I had a reg player invite his wife to one game... she made a huge display of her newness to the game, even bringing out a hand-ranking sheet, (it was later learned she regularly wins local tourneys)... then she tried to take advantage of people who were cutting her slack for being new... Afterwards, I told my buddy that my friendly game regulars (and I) were not overly impressed and refused to play with her again, as she was not really a good fit for my game any more... A few months go by, and my buddy is a last minute add to a relatively full game (he snags the last remaining open seat, and knows he's done so). However, he shows up... with his wife (unannounced), who expects to play...

I posted the situation here, and the consensus on the forum was that it was not possible to invite one spouse and exclude the other. I somewhat disagree, but whatever. Either way, my games are not open, they're rsvp. And there's a waitlist, so if you're not on the list as having a seat locked up, then you don't have a seat, regardless if you're a spouse or not. Now, I often get neighbors and players show up unannounced, in order to hang out, wait for a seat, which is fine.

 

[BiGGyT]

I can only imagine the stress of hosting a regular game, and I think many here have made a good case of pros and cons. If I am playing with my brother, I make sure everyone knows we are brothers when I sit, and the way he and I play against each other, most people instantly know there is no collusion, but I have been at a game watching a couple playing and know that they were signaling each other with chip positioning and hand gestures, so I can see both sides of it. Honestly, if someone asked me to not play at the same table or game as my brother, I am not butt hurt about it, because I play for fun. If I were hosting and players were leaving because of a new couple, the new couple goes to the serious only game, and I try and split them as much as possible, or make a rule, no related players/couples at the same table. If they don't like your rules, they will go to another game. My brother hosted a friendly game that one or two players just contantly beat up on the weak to the point where the game died because it was no longer fun, just a small paycheck for the villans.

Fish will come to place where they might get fed, until you eat all the fish.

I don't understand the desire to host a game other than for friends or pure fun, but I thank those of you who do and try to be a gracious guest. If I were a host, I would get so frustrated with it I would probably just sell all my chips and go to other people's games. Avoid the headaches, bitching, and constant cleaning.

Let us know what you decide to do, curious how it works out.

BiGGyT