Mixed Games? Help with blinds/antes/limits (3 Viewers)

mconn116

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I host a cash game that is almost exclusively NLHE right now but I’ve been thinking of throwing in some new games to have a little variety. @SeanGecko gave me the idea of incorporating a spin the wheel app which I think will be a lot of fun. Our group is diverse and consist of ages from 21 up to 70. Everyone pretty much enjoys NLHE, the younger guys have been open to trying other flop games, while the older guys have been wanting to play more stud games like they use to “back in the day” . So I came up with this wheel (NLHE heavy since we all enjoy it and are comfortable with it). What do y’all think of the game choices?
Secondly, the next game on the 27th was set to be a .10/.25 game with $50 max buy in. How would y’all translate similar stakes for antes/limits on some of these new games?
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I wouldn't play 5 card stud, I would play 7S8O.

Low Chicago is meh, put derailment in there! Trade one of the NLHE to BigO
I put 5 stud in there per a request from one of the old timers (my father in law) and figured it’s an easy enough to understand game it could be picked up quick by the others. I do actually like low Chicago though, never heard of derailment I’ll have to look that one up
 
I put 5 stud in there per a request from one of the old timers (my father in law) and figured it’s an easy enough to understand game it could be picked up quick by the others. I do actually like low Chicago though, never heard of derailment I’ll have to look that one up
Stud games play slower, If you get the chance, try to make it out to one of the meetups, you'll learn it =)
 
Yeah I’d love to hit up one of the meetups, maybe at some point I’ll be able to make it to one and learn some more of these games . I know more games than most of my group but have quickly figured out I don’t know nothing
 
5 card stud is a fun one, I like it because it makes older fish feel at home lol, rather they feel comfortable.

Sounds fun, good luck! I wouldnt overcomplicate the blinds/bringins/antes. If your NLHE limits is .10/.25, I like making the ante atleast .50 if not $1. Its a slower game with less big swings, fine to build a pot on 3rd street. This usually makes the NL people happier because they're not limited to a relatively small BB.
 
That’s why I included 5 stud, it was a request and I’m happy to play it if the others are game! For the antes that’s about what I was thinking was .50, I feel like a $1 ante may not be received as well just cause we’re so used to playing lower stakes with blinds
 
So here’s what I’m thinking, kinda want to get it to just a few games for our first time since some of the guys haven’t ever played anything besides nlhe:

.10/.25 nlhe and crazy pineapple
.50/1 low chicago and 5 stud (.10 ante & .25 bring in)

May add in some plo or hi/lo depending how the group does with these. May also up the stakes on the stud games to 1/2 (.25 ante & .50 bring in) if it’s playing too small starting out

NOW, any other ideas on how to introduce these? I like the idea of using the spin the wheel, maybe the winner (or high hand winner for low chicago) gets to spin the wheel? Round of each? Dealers choice? Another fun idea?
 
So here’s what I’m thinking, kinda want to get it to just a few games for our first time since some of the guys haven’t ever played anything besides nlhe:

.10/.25 nlhe and crazy pineapple
.50/1 low chicago and 5 stud (.10 ante & .25 bring in)

May add in some plo or hi/lo depending how the group does with these. May also up the stakes on the stud games to 1/2 (.25 ante & .50 bring in) if it’s playing too small starting out

NOW, any other ideas on how to introduce these? I like the idea of using the spin the wheel, maybe the winner (or high hand winner for low chicago) gets to spin the wheel? Round of each? Dealers choice? Another fun idea?
I think the ratio between NLHE to a any limit game should be 4x min. Spin the wheel but dont play games again and again if already played and set a timer 20-30 minutes. One Orbit is not enough to introduce a game.
Regarding PLO I have zero live experience but I read a couple of time to lower stakes. Maybe in your case to 10c/10c blinds.
 
I like dealers choice round of each. So if I pick it, everyone deals 7 card stud, then when it gets to the guy to my left again they pick a game. This allows people to get used to a game instead of having to explain new rules every hand. Repetition helps shore up understanding.
This is kinda along the lines of what I was thinking, dealer choice (they can either choose a game or spin the wheel) and then a full rotation and so on so forth.
 
This is kinda along the lines of what I was thinking, dealer choice (they can either choose a game or spin the wheel) and then a full rotation and so on so forth.
Good ideas. One word of caution, make sure the new games are played limit/pot limit. Players end up with a good sense of where they're at in Hold'Em but fish lose money very quickly in split pot games with lots of streets. I play in a very soft 50c/50c game with players that prefer the stud/draw games but don't realize that when they win a pot its usually around $4 but when I win a pot playing the same game I'm aiming for $15+.

Just a warning. Whenever I host I'm actively protecting my newbies because the game is usually half brand-new players.
 
Good ideas. One word of caution, make sure the new games are played limit/pot limit. Players end up with a good sense of where they're at in Hold'Em but fish lose money very quickly in split pot games with lots of streets. I play in a very soft 50c/50c game with players that prefer the stud/draw games but don't realize that when they win a pot its usually around $4 but when I win a pot playing the same game I'm aiming for $15+.

Just a warning. Whenever I host I'm actively protecting my newbies because the game is usually half brand-new players.
This is a good point, for the new games (especially the new stud games) I’m definitely going to be playing fixed limits. PROBABLY going to start at .50/1 limit for studs games so it’ll stay reasonably small while we adjust to it which seems about in line for our $50 max buy in. May bump it to 1/2 limit if it’s playing too small
 
We play .50/.50 for NL/PL. When I started introducing fixed limit games I went with .50 ante, $1 bring in, $2/$4 fixed and it felt pretty equivalent so 8x the big blind for a big bet. Pots don't get as big obviously but they were getting close to a small/moderate NL pot, $40-$60 range usually.
 
I like dealers choice round of each. So if I pick it, everyone deals 7 card stud, then when it gets to the guy to my left again they pick a game. This allows people to get used to a game instead of having to explain new rules every hand. Repetition helps shore up understanding.
This is the way. You may also want to consider bringing in the new games slowly. I don't know how often you play, but I have a group of NLHE players that I'm going to start adding different games into. My plan is to start with flop games to make the transition easier, so next session will be NLHE and I'll be adding PLO and maybe Crazy Pineapple. Then the next session I may introduce 7 Stud, then at that point I can introduce 8 or better to the games once they are comfortable with them. Then maybe we'll add 2-7 draw games.
 
thanks for the input, sounds like for stud games 1/2 limit with .25 ante and .50 bring in may be the way to go. I still think the first couple rounds I may stick to .50/1 with .10 ante/.25 bring in just let everyone get acclimated to the different structure. I agree introducing the games slowly is going to be the way to go
 
Secondly, the next game on the 27th was set to be a .10/.25 game with $50 max buy in. How would y’all translate similar stakes for antes/limits on some of these new games?

To get on the original question, this looks to be a mix of limit and no limit games. Just to be clear, I do assume limit structures have an early limit and a later limit that is twice the early limit. The early limit is in use for the first two rounds of all forms, and then the later limit for all rounds after that.

My rule of thumb is that when mixing limit and no limit games, the limit games should have an early limit that's double the big blind for the no-limit games to keep the risk factor similar. The later limit of course becomes twice the early limit (or 4x the NL big blind.)

So since you stated a big blind of 25c, the limit games would have stakes of 50c/1.

Now that we have set the stakes, we will break down the other amounts needed to structure each game by form.

In button games (hold'em-type), we need to figure out the blinds. The big blind should always be the same as the early limit, that's straight forward. The small blind would typically be half of the big blind, but really it could be any fraction convenient for the chip set including being the same as the big blind. In your case, I imagine quarters are in play and doing a 25c small blind for limit button games would be straight forward.

In stud games, we need to figure out the ante and bring-in. Most stud structures will have the bring-in be some amount between 25-50% of the low limit, and the ante would be between 25-50% of the bring in. For your game, I would see using a 10c ante and 25c bring in as an option as being a fairly natural choice.

So this is what I would post in your invite.
NL Blinds 10c-25c
Limit Stakes: 50c/$1 (blinds 25c-50c, stud ante 10c, bring in 25c)

I think the above would be very easily understood for your players. However, I will throw in a couple alternatives depending on what denominations you may want to use.

Alternative #1 - eliminates nickel chips.

If you change the NL blinds to 25c-25c and introduce a table ante for stud, you can eliminate nickel chips from play and still play limit games with 50c/$1 stakes.

So you could put this in your invite:

NL blinds: 25c-25c
Limit Stakes: 50c/$1 (blinds 25c-50c, stud rotating table ante* 75c, bring in 25c)

A rotating ante pretty much requires a round of every game is played. (Which is something I whole-heartedly agree with @NotRealNameNoSir about doing so time is not lost explaining a new game every hand) The other tricky thing about rotating ante is that it requires use of a "button" which stud does not otherwise require (typically in a mixed game, the button would "freeze" during a rotation of stud until the next button game is played), and the rules need to be understood if someone is away when the ante is due. My suggestions.

Rule A) Seated players that are dealt in for at least one stud hand will pay the table ante in turn, whether or not they are present for the actual hand when their seat is due for the table ante. Players away from the table and have not yet been dealt been dealt in this round will not pay the table ante if they are away when their seat is due the rotation. If such a player returns before the end of the round, he will have the option to pay the table ante immediately to be dealt in (instead of the player that was otherwise due to pay the table ante, and that player will instead pay on the next hand and the normal rotation will resume at the point) or sit out the remainder of the stud round with no additional penalty.

OR Rule B) During a stud round, all players post the table ante in turn whether or not they are present when their seat is due.

Rule A is more in spirit of the cash game where people missing hands to smoke, take phone calls, or whatnot is certainly permissible. Rule B, has the simplicity of a tournament rule, where all forced posting happen in turn no matter what.

Alternative #2 - Dime-Half chips

Another option would be to consider playing with dimes and halves instead of quarters. The invite could look like this

NL blinds: 10c-20c
Limit Stakes: 40c/80c (blinds 10c-20c, stud ante 10c, bring-in 20c)

(FWIW, this is what we do in my micro dealers' choice game, since my set uses dimes and halves.)

So just a few thoughts. I really wanted to mostly lay out how to apply good calculation on antes and bring-ins for any limit stake.

Hope this helps,
 
I prefer playing full orbits with the game changing whenever the button reaches one designated person (e.g., the dealer of the first hand of the session). Players rotate choosing the game. When playing orbit+1, the chooser deals two hands of the same game. Taking positional advantage into account, thinking players would be unlikely to call stud games unless choices are random (e.g., a die or wheel). An alternate approach is to create a list of games and playing an orbit of each.

Pineapple might be a better transition game, and introducing Omaha 8 before PLO is almost imperative with players branching out from NLHE only.

Mixed games are fantastic. Have fun!
 
I prefer playing full orbits with the game changing whenever the button reaches one designated person (e.g., the dealer of the first hand of the session). Players rotate choosing the game. When playing orbit+1, the chooser deals two hands of the same game. Taking positional advantage into account, thinking players would be unlikely to call stud games unless choices are random (e.g., a die or wheel). An alternate approach is to create a list of games and playing an orbit of each.

Pineapple might be a better transition game, and introducing Omaha 8 before PLO is almost imperative with players branching out from NLHE only.

Mixed games are fantastic. Have fun!

Pineapple was for sure the gateway drug my group needed! PLO, 3 handed Holdem, 2 or 5, five card double board, and sohe all followed. Then I started mixing in stud games.

I'm interested to hear you say O8 before PLO though? Maybe it's group specific. Most of my guys didn't know what a low was so I started mixing in razz before any hi/lo games.
 
thanks for the input, sounds like for stud games 1/2 limit with .25 ante and .50 bring in may be the way to go. I still think the first couple rounds I may stick to .50/1 with .10 ante/.25 bring in just let everyone get acclimated to the different structure. I agree introducing the games slowly is going to be the way to go
My concern with this is, if you have 8 players at the table, you already have $2.50 in the pot by the time the first player can voluntarily put money in the pot. 5 to 1 odds will make it tough to fold for a lot of folks which will start a chain reaction of having a lot of players in the pot for 4th st. IMO, the total amount of antes should be between the bring-in and the small bet. If you play with dimes you could do a $.10 ante. We don't, hence the button ante.
 
I'm interested to hear you say O8 before PLO though?
Oops, I meant to say Omaha Hi before PLO, and Omaha8 before PLO8. My apologies.

I do think that learning a new game is easier if the new game can be explained with a simple "It's just like XXX except for YYY." In other words, it works well to add one new concept at a time. @inca911 developed a list of games, Game Evolution, that builds on this idea: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/cash-game-idea-limiting-losses.73344/#post-1528284
 
I do think that learning a new game is easier if the new game can be explained with a simple "It's just like XXX except for YYY."

Yes I totally agree. I tried to throw PLO at my Holdem crew and it was a total mutiny :LOL: :laugh:

I shifted gears and went to pineapple instead and everything just clicked from there. I hate pineapple but I love what doors it opened!
 
Man lots of good ideas here. Here is what I think I’m going to go with to at least start the night:
-Start with 1 round of .10/.25 nlhe
-After the first full rotation well the dealers choice or “spin the wheel” which will be probably 3 other game choices (still thinking pineapple/crazy pineapple, 5 stud, and low chicago)
And then probably back to nlhe for a round and so on so forth
Nlhe- .10/.25
Crazy pineapple- .10/.25 blinds maybe pot limit?
Stud games- .50/1 limit .10 ante .25 bring in

for my game selection: crazy pineapple is similar enough to nlhe it should be an easy transition, 5 stud was an old times request, a couple others said they just want to play more stud games and since 5 stud was already included I wanted to include low chicago to introduce split pot possibilities
The other guys who haven’t expressed opinions either way are mostly just happy to get the invite and come have a fun night and just go with the flow

I gotta say, all this info for mixed games makes me realize how popular it really is to include mixed games and it’s making me real excited for the next game… gonna be a blast
 
Man lots of good ideas here. Here is what I think I’m going to go with to at least start the night:
-Start with 1 round of .10/.25 nlhe
-After the first full rotation well the dealers choice or “spin the wheel” which will be probably 3 other game choices (still thinking pineapple/crazy pineapple, 5 stud, and low chicago)
And then probably back to nlhe for a round and so on so forth
Nlhe- .10/.25
Crazy pineapple- .10/.25 blinds maybe pot limit?
Stud games- .50/1 limit .10 ante .25 bring in

for my game selection: crazy pineapple is similar enough to nlhe it should be an easy transition, 5 stud was an old times request, a couple others said they just want to play more stud games and since 5 stud was already included I wanted to include low chicago to introduce split pot possibilities
The other guys who haven’t expressed opinions either way are mostly just happy to get the invite and come have a fun night and just go with the flow

I gotta say, all this info for mixed games makes me realize how popular it really is to include mixed games and it’s making me real excited for the next game… gonna be a blast

I'm not sure how others do it but my take is if it's a Holdem variant it's NL, if it's an Omaha variant it's PL, and if it's a stud variant it's fixed limit. We haven't really delved much into the draw games but what few we have played we just did NL.
 
That’s why I included 5 stud, it was a request and I’m happy to play it if the others are game! For the antes that’s about what I was thinking was .50, I feel like a $1 ante may not be received as well just cause we’re so used to playing lower stakes with blinds
When I was playing with the old timers they had a 5 card stud wrinkle where every street is dealt down and the player decides which card to turn over before betting. it seemed to create more action than the standard version.
 
When I was playing with the old timers they had a 5 card stud wrinkle where every street is dealt down and the player decides which card to turn over before betting. it seemed to create more action than the standard version.
That’s actually a pretty cool idea, may be a fun way to mix it up if 5 stud is a game that sticks with the group
 

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