Need a ruling, weird spot (1 Viewer)

[Dugthefish]

Regular at my .25/.50 game, very loose/aggressive, deep pockets, loses a big pot and is down to $20. Asks if she can top off for another $100 (max buy in), I tell her I can give her another $80, so she open shoves next hand. Takes pot down, so now at ~$22.

Next hand I am involved in a fair sized pot. During the hand, she folds, gets up from table, goes over to get money from her purse, and drops five $20 on the table between her and I (we are seated next to each other) and returns to the smoking area. Current hand finishes, I grab 4 of the 5 20s, turn around to get chips, and bring her $80 in chips (just a couple bucks over table max). When I return with chips, she has returned to table and shoved her $22 stack in the pot. I don't recall if she announced all in, maybe @Page remembers any details I missed.

What do I do with the $80 in chips? Are they in play? It's not unusual for people to play on credit while I'm banking/chip running.

 

[JMC9389]

I'm not exactly sure what's going on here, but if she gave you cash to top off before the hand started, the $22 would be counted as a raise in my book, and that the $80 she topped off with is fair game if a player wants to reraise.

 

[FordPickup92]

I would assume they are in play
@Seeking Alpha Social Club may have some insight here.
I would hope she or you announced a reload/rebuy so folks were aware of what she would have behind

 

[LeLe]

As long as she pay the banker the money before the seeing her card, the $80 chip is in play, if she annouced all in it be $102 if not it be a $22 raise bet

Side note, usually a lot of game allowed a full $100 top up as long as their staking is less than $50 (assuming is $100 buyin). It make the host/banker work a lot easier and minimum mistake in handing out the wrong value chip as we only allow top up of $50 or $100 depending on the player choice

 

[upNdown]

As long as she pay the banker the money before the seeing her card, the $80 chip is in play, if she annouced all in it be $102 if not it be a $22 raise bet

This

 

[JMC9389]

As long as she pay the banker the money before the seeing her card, the $80 chip is in play, if she annouced all in it be $102 if not it be a $22 raise bet

Side note, usually a lot of game allowed a full $100 top up as long as their staking is less than $50 (assuming is $100 buyin). It make the host/banker work a lot easier and minimum mistake in handing out the wrong value chip as we only allow top up of $50 or $100 depending on the player choice

This is why a betting line on the felt or a dedicated dealer in a game with any kind of somewhat serious money in play is absolutely necessary.

If the dealer/host is not able to verify verbal action, chips across the betting line talk. Verbal action of "all in" is binding as well, but the player can't be held to it if dealer/host can't verify the verbal action.

 

[Dugthefish]

As long as she pay the banker the money before the seeing her card, the $80 chip is in play, if she annouced all in it be $102 if not it be a $22 raise bet

Side note, usually a lot of game allowed a full $100 top up as long as their staking is less than $50 (assuming is $100 buyin). It make the host/banker work a lot easier and minimum mistake in handing out the wrong value chip as we only allow top up of $50 or $100 depending on the player choice

We've always just allowed topping off up to max buy in, within a few bb. I will add that this particular player almost always verbally asks for a rebuy/top off before getting up to retrieve cash to actually pay for said rebuy.

 

[Eloe2000]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what had happened here, but if the chips aren’t in front of her when action starts then they aren’t in play in my book.

 

[TheDuke]

As described, the $80 is in play for that hand. However, whether it is in the pot or not depends on how the action played.

In the future, advise everyone cash on the table means it is in play. Declaration needs to be made to make everyone aware and cash should be placed in front of player's stack (clearly visible and not behind or under chips).

In terms of exchanges, leave the cash on the table, grab the chips first, then exchange chips for cash, then take cash off the table. Avoid any confusion when you don't have a dedicated dealer in place to control action.

 

[Rhodeman77]

As host/floor/bank if someone asks for a top off I will let the table know the player has additional money behind before the start of the hand even if the chips aren’t in their stack yet so that everyone knows (including the rebuying player) that there is more money behind.

 

[Eloe2000]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what had happened here, but if the chips aren’t in front of her when action starts then they aren’t in play in my book.

To clarify my comment, the reason why I am saying the money isn’t in play is because neither the cash nor the chips were in her stack when action started. Had the cash been in her stack or the chips then I would say in play. But since the cash was put in between you too it is a bit different in my mind. It’s “cash in your stack” is in play, not just on the table. Perhaps I am off base.

 

[CrazyEddie]

To clarify my comment, the reason why I am saying the money isn’t in play is because neither the cash nor the chips were in her stack when action started. Had the cash been in her stack or the chips then I would say in play. But since the cash was put in between you too it is a bit different in my mind. It’s “cash in your stack” is in play, not just on the table. Perhaps I am off base.

I would agree with you, except the OP said "It's not unusual for people to play on credit while I'm banking/chip running" which suggests to me that the rule as practiced in his game is "Money is in play as soon as you say you want to add on".

 

[Dugthefish]

I would agree with you, except the OP said "It's not unusual for people to play on credit while I'm banking/chip running" which suggests to me that the rule as practiced in his game is "Money is in play as soon as you say you want to add on".

This is accurate. As long as the request is made before the deal begins.

 

[Eloe2000]

I would agree with you, except the OP said "It's not unusual for people to play on credit while I'm banking/chip running" which suggests to me that the rule as practiced in his game is "Money is in play as soon as you say you want to add on".

You’re right. This really resolves the whole conflict. I am guessing this is a situation of loose norms created confusion.

 

[upNdown]

To clarify my comment, the reason why I am saying the money isn’t in play is because neither the cash nor the chips were in her stack when action started. Had the cash been in her stack or the chips then I would say in play. But since the cash was put in between you too it is a bit different in my mind. It’s “cash in your stack” is in play, not just on the table. Perhaps I am off base.

I'd say you're off base. From a casino perspective, when you put cash on the table, it's in play. If a runner takes your cash to the cage to get you chips, it's still in play. Of course, people can do whatever they want in their home games.

 

[CrazyEddie]

So then it sounds like the question is not "is the money in play" but rather "is the money in the pot". Yes if the player unambiguously indicated an all-in bet, no otherwise.

It's also possible the player didn't think her money was in play yet, since as noted she didn't have her cash and didn't have her chips, and so was making an all-in bet thinking she was all-in at $22. Probably worth making an announcement reminding everyone of your rule, and making it explicit just in case it wasn't already.

 

[CrazyEddie]

I'd say you're off base. From a casino perspective, when you put cash on the table, it's in play. If a runner takes your cash to the cage to get you chips, it's still in play. Of course, people can do whatever they want in their home games.

How do casinos handle it if you have $200 coming to you but nothing on the table at the moment and want to make or call a $50 bet?

 

[Eloe2000]

I'd say you're off base. From a casino perspective, when you put cash on the table, it's in play. If a runner takes your cash to the cage to get you chips, it's still in play. Of course, people can do whatever they want in their home games.

Understood, and I may be, but this is a self dealt home game. At a casino, the dealer doesn’t take cash off the table, leave the table, and allow action to continue in the mean time. So there are certainly differences.

 

[DoubleEagle]

As host/floor/bank if someone asks for a top off I will let the table know the player has additional money behind before the start of the hand even if the chips aren’t i their stack yet so that everyone knows (including the rebuying player) that there is more money behind.

This is the way it should be done. Simple.

 

[Dugthefish]

It's also possible the player didn't think her money was in play yet, since as noted she didn't have her cash and didn't have her chips, and so was making an all-in bet thinking she was all-in at $22. Probably worth making an announcement reminding everyone of your rule, and making it explicit just in case it wasn't alalready

Based on her reaction when I returned with the chips, this was my assumption.

 

[upNdown]

How do casinos handle it if you have $200 coming to you but nothing on the table at the moment and want to make or call a $50 bet?

They let you do it, "on credit" or whatever. At least that's how I've seen it done everywhere I've played, if the dealer couldn't immediately give you chips from his tray.

 

[TheDuke]

How do casinos handle it if you have $200 coming to you but nothing on the table at the moment and want to make or call a $50 bet?

Every poker room I've been to handles it the same. If the dealer can't give you the chips immediately and you're waiting for the chip runner to bring chips, the dealer keeps track of what you're putting in the pot. Once the chips arrive the player settles up what they owe the pot.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I'd say you're off base. From a casino perspective, when you put cash on the table, it's in play. If a runner takes your cash to the cage to get you chips, it's still in play. Of course, people can do whatever they want in their home games.

This is the not the case in every casino. The local Jack changed the rule that markers don’t play, only chips. So if a player has a marker while a chip runner is getting chips for them the player is dealt out now. I don’t know why they changed to this rule but it has been that way for a while now.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I would assume they are in play
@Seeking Alpha Social Club may have some insight here.
I would hope she or you announced a reload/rebuy so folks were aware of what she would have behind

If she put the money on the table, I would count it in play for the next hand. HOWEVER, if she shoved the $22 in without announcing all in, bet's $22 for a couple reasons. Pretty weird that she would shove all in without making it clear she had $80 coming. If she did, that's a little to back handed for me. Either way, only $22 if no all in declared, and all of it if declared. Just my 2 cents

 

[Dugthefish]

In the end, the floor (my partner handles ruling questions) let her decide if she wanted the additional chips in play or wanted to let the all in ride out.

I think I will be clamping down on people leaving rebuy/tip off cash on the table when it's not in play. I also like the "bring the chips then take the cash" idea.

 

[LeLe]

How do casinos handle it if you have $200 coming to you but nothing on the table at the moment and want to make or call a $50 bet?

usually the runner will give a card with a 200 number on it, indicating you have a $200 chip. you can make changes with the dealer or verbally shout out your bet and the dealer will annouce it a $50 bet

But not all casino use the same rules, so it better to check with the casino dealer first

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

In the end, the floor (my partner handles ruling questions) let her decide if she wanted the additional chips in play or wanted to let the all in ride out.
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I think I will be clamping down on people leaving rebuy/tip off cash on the table when it's not in play. I also like the "bring the chips then take the cash" idea.

All my peeps are close, so if she sincerely forgot about the additional, I suspect her opponent (at my game) would have offered for her to keep it. I would have been fine with that too.

 

[aggie]

The largest live hand I ever won was in Vegas without any chips.

Waiting on a runner to return with my rack(s), I was dealt QQ, flopped AQQ, and chips just started raining from the heavens. Dealer just tracked my verbal commits. When I scooped, a busted player went apesh*t arguing it shouldn't count because I didn't even have chips yet. Man what a great feeling.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

The largest live hand I ever won was in Vegas without any chips.

Waiting on a runner to return with my rack(s), I was dealt QQ, flopped AQQ, and chips just started raining from the heavens. Dealer just tracked my verbal commits. When I scooped, a busted player went apesh*t arguing it shouldn't count because I didn't even have chips yet. Man what a great feeling.

I guaran-damn-tee he would have made you count out the chips you owed him if he had won the pot.

 

[upNdown]

a busted player went apesh*t arguing it shouldn't count because I didn't even have chips yet. Man what a great feeling.

We toss around phrases like “I can’t imagine” all to often. But I can’t imagine being a whiny turd like that. How does he show his face in public?