My Journey As A Professional Poker Player (29 Viewers)

[Legend5555]

35-40bb I believe I had

Hmmm... A back raise jam? Not sure I'd be able to fold after committing 11 of our 35bb. I even think you can make a case for just jamming as your squeeze to begin with. I think 22k might even be a little small of a 3bet. I just can't imagine 3 bet folding on this stack in this configuration.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Hmmm... A back raise jam? Not sure I'd be able to fold after committing 11 of our 35bb. I even think you can make a case for just jamming as your squeeze to begin with. I think 22k might even be a little small of a 3bet. I just can't imagine 3 bet folding on this stack in this configuration.

Good point, its hard to put SB on jacks or better when they just flat the COs raise, once CO folds I think you gotta call here.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Hmmm... A back raise jam? Not sure I'd be able to fold after committing 11 of our 35bb. I even think you can make a case for just jamming as your squeeze to begin with. I think 22k might even be a little small of a 3bet. I just can't imagine 3 bet folding on this stack in this configuration.

With the bb at 2k I felt my 50k'ish remaining stack was important to preserve, and also felt my best case scenario was a coinflip given how the action played out

I was ranging villain on JJ/AQ+ and didn't think he'd be as light as KQ suited there, given he wasn't the initial raiser

 

[Anthony Martino]

Good point, its hard to put SB on jacks or better when they just flat the COs raise, once CO folds I think you gotta call here.

But if I believe my opponent is competent and views my raise as one where I will commit, and he shoves expecting me to call....shouldn't I fold and do the opposite of what I expect he expects me to do?

It wasn't a snap fold, I thought for awhile trying to puzzle out his range, as the play was kinda odd and something I don't usually see

 

[Beakertwang]

But if I believe my opponent is competent and views my raise as one where I will commit, and he shoves expecting me to call....shouldn't I fold and do the opposite of what I expect he expects me to do?

It wasn't a snap fold, I thought for awhile trying to puzzle out his range, as the play was kinda odd and something I don't usually see

But what if he knows you believe he is competent, and and he was making you think he expects you to call, but he actually expects you to fold, so he shoved because he knows you're the type of player to do the opposite of what he expects?

I'm confused.

 

[Anthony Martino]

But what if he knows you believe he is competent, and and he was making you think he expects you to call, but he actually expects you to fold, so he shoved because he knows you're the type of player to do the opposite of what he expects?

I'm confused.

 

[JustinInMN]

75k at break, made me buy all the black chips since I was biggest stack

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At a home game I would do that no problem.

In a casino? NO WAY NO HOW. All chip exchanges go through the dealer. PERIOD. They have staff for that. Not my job. Leaves room for mistakes, collusion etc etc.

Pretty customary thing in my experience. Speeds up color ups. I do get your concern though.

Tournament dealers in US will almost never have tournament chips in their tray during a tourney, except possibly at the beginning.

the Td usually comes by at break with high value chips. Having one player buy all the colored up denomination speeds things up. I guess someone could object but I’ve never seen that occur.

+1 This is standard where I play. But they do bring out the racks a couple hands before the actual break so all the chips are consolidated before the actual break.

FWIW, all chip exchanges do go through the dealer still, they just get funneled to one player. Though sometimes the neighbors of the chip collector will just do quick exchanges.

But I imagine a TD will never insist if a player doesn't want to do it. There are usually 2 or 3 sufficient stacks.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Well, looks like the world continues to grow madder by the day. Had been facebook friends (and friendly in person) with the tournament director at the Tampa Hard Rock, we talked tech, etc.

But he just unfriended and blocked me on Facebook over my comments (which weren't even attacks in the post, I pointed out a lot of great things I commended him for, and my disappointment at some changes in the latest event I played).

One of the dealers there (Michael Laake) started chiming in and many of us were responding to him. He used to be a sponsored pro for Hollywood Hard Rock (has almost $1 million in cashes) but is now a dealer in Tampa and has two small tourney cashes in the past 2-3 years)

They took their standard tourney format which used to give you 30K chips and start at 100/100 and bumped it down to 20K chips and yanked out the first two levels, starting you off at 100/200 with a 200 BB ante instead

 

[Kain8]

Michael is not seeing the forest for the trees here. He either takes ownership of the blind levels and stack sizes and declares it was HIS decision. Or, he states that this change came from higher-ups than him and he has no influence on the matter. At the very least then, he could take the concerns of the players to the brass to discuss it further.

I think given how he's communicating with you, he doesn't give two shits if people complain. If some people don't play the tournament as a result of the structure change, that's the cost that the poker room / casino are willing to take to implement this.

I guess, after all said is done, cash games once again are proven to be superior.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Anthony you made some good points, but what he didn't say (for obvious reasons) are that shallower stack tourneys are better for the casino. More rake in less time means more profit for them.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Michael is not seeing the forest for the trees here. He either takes ownership of the blind levels and stack sizes and declares it was HIS decision. Or, he states that this change came from higher-ups than him and he has no influence on the matter. At the very least then, he could take the concerns of the players to the brass to discuss it further.

I think given how he's communicating with you, he doesn't give two shits if people complain. If some people don't play the tournament as a result of the structure change, that's the cost that the poker room / casino are willing to take to implement this.

I guess, after all said is done, cash games once again are proven to be superior.

Michael is a dealer, Yi Li is the tourney director who didn't respond to the lengthy thread, but just started unfriending and blocking people instead

Anthony you made some good points, but what he didn't say (for obvious reasons) are that shallower stack tourneys are better for the casino. More rake in less time means more profit for them.

It was already mentioned by others in the thread, that the change was facilitated to end tournaments sooner. This multi-day $400 buyin I just played saw the house take close to $26,000 for themselves (not counting any money players spent elsewhere on property). The tourney was chopped 7-handed and each player (including one of my friends) walked away with a little over 13K (first was originally around 33k I believe, just slightly more than what the house "won")

 

[Kain8]

Michael's just a dealer? Not for very long if a casino executive catches wind of what he says on social media to paying customers. That reflects HORRIBLY on the establishment itself.

As for Yi Li, current points still stand. If they're blocking everyone then players should start confronting him in person at the venue. If he still tries to duck or evade the issue altogether, then you have your answer on why it changed in the first place.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Not to disagree with you, Anthony, your point on the structure is 100% valid, and would be enough to keep me away. Just posting the structure has lost my potential business.

Where I am a little shocked is your statement: "...telling us to adapt or pound sand is a pretty shitty way to treat people who support your livelihood."

Isn't Michael/the Casino also supporting your livelihood? If you compare the % of your income that is derived from the Seminole Hard Rock's facilities and the % that the cardroom manager makes from regulars playing in tournaments... I strongly suspect that they are doing more for you (the royal you, including other regular tournament players) than you are doing for him in this symbiotic relationship.

 

[MatB]

Do you fold for 7hrs waiting for AA?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Well, looks like the world continues to grow madder by the day. Had been facebook friends (and friendly in person) with the tournament director at the Tampa Hard Rock, we talked tech, etc.

But he just unfriended and blocked me on Facebook over my comments (which weren't even attacks in the post, I pointed out a lot of great things I commended him for, and my disappointment at some changes in the latest event I played).

One of the dealers there (Michael Laake) started chiming in and many of us were responding to him. He used to be a sponsored pro for Hollywood Hard Rock (has almost $1 million in cashes) but is now a dealer in Tampa and has two small tourney cashes in the past 2-3 years)

They took their standard tourney format which used to give you 30K chips and start at 100/100 and bumped it down to 20K chips and yanked out the first two levels, starting you off at 100/200 with a 200 BB ante instead

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That "whiner" comment should be enough to tell you that this is the kind of person you just gotta walk away from.

I know it's tempting to try to defeat every argument and every troll out there, but you're never getting anywhere with a prick like this. He thinks he's got everyone clocked, knows everything there is to know, and owes zero respect to anyone.

 

[Coyote]

With this you are dead against top set and in trouble against overpairs with flush draws or top 2/top and bottom. With the action you would have to think you are in trouble.

yep. and maybe i reload. this makes me think i should continue to steer clear of live omaha games.

Don't ever play that crap against any people you share feelings with

 

[Anthony Martino]

Not to disagree with you, Anthony, your point on the structure is 100% valid, and would be enough to keep me away. Just posting the structure has lost my potential business.

Where I am a little shocked is your statement: "...telling us to adapt or pound sand is a pretty shitty way to treat people who support your livelihood."

Isn't Michael/the Casino also supporting your livelihood? If you compare the % of your income that is derived from the Seminole Hard Rock's facilities and the % that the cardroom manager makes from regulars playing in tournaments... I strongly suspect that they are doing more for you (the royal you, including other regular tournament players) than you are doing for him in this symbiotic relationship.

Gotta disagree with you on this one, you've got it misunderstood.

I am a customer of the Casinos. Their staff are there to provide ME with service, which I pay a hefty rake for.

The fish at the tables are my customers, my job is to make sure they are having fun while they lose their money to me.

Do you fold for 7hrs waiting for AA?

I mean, that's the perception he must have of my play, which is fine, gives me some bluffing opportunities.

That "whiner" comment should be enough to tell you that this is the kind of person you just gotta walk away from.

I know it's tempting to try to defeat every argument and every troll out there, but you're never getting anywhere with a prick like this. He thinks he's got everyone clocked, knows everything there is to know, and owes zero respect to anyone.

Are you a carpenter sir, cause you just hit the nail on the head!

 

[JustinInMN]

I am a customer of the Casinos. Their staff are there to provide ME with service, which I pay a hefty rake for.

The fish at the tables are my customers, my job is to make sure they are having fun while they lose their money to me.

I mean there is some truth here, but at the same time casinos are doing the work to get the players in the door with how they run their room, promotions, etc. So in that sense you are actually sharing the labor with the casino with relationship to the fish. If the casino doesn't get them in the door, you can't entertain them. They can still get them in the door whether or not you are there.

I guess, after all said is done, cash games once again are proven to be superior.

^ this 100%. I am pretty cynical about casino tournaments as it is. Even pre-covid I might play 2-3 in a year. (And I actually have a pretty decent number of cashes for how few I have played in the last decade.)

But yes, most poker players are not PCFers that have put tireless thought into blind structures and recognize the things we all see as casino shortcuts. If they squeeze us out, they probably don't care if it means they can bust players out looking for cash games quicker.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Gotta disagree with you on this one, you've got it misunderstood.

I am a customer of the Casinos. Their staff are there to provide ME with service, which I pay a hefty rake for.

The fish at the tables are my customers, my job is to make sure they are having fun while they lose their money to me.



I mean, that's the perception he must have of my play, which is fine, gives me some bluffing opportunities.



Are you a carpenter sir, cause you just hit the nail on the head!

If your job is to make sure "the fish have fun" why have you alienated 3 of them so far lol

 

[raynmanas]

If your job is to make sure "the fish have fun" why have you alienated 3 of them so far lol

just because it's his job, that doesn't make him good at it

 

[tabletalker7]

just because it's his job, that doesn't make him good at it

I thought his job was the parking lot strip shows

 

[JustinInMN]

I thought his job was the parking lot strip shows

Not yet. He is apparently just collecting enough pots from the fish to avoid this fate.

 

[Legend5555]

It's interesting reading the opinions on the tournament structures. From a money making POV, you generally want slightly faster structures that truncate early levels IMO. From a play/fun POV, I get wanting slower structures. I think both have merit, but from a money making POV, faster (within reason) is better.

 

[tabletalker7]

Not yet. He is apparently just collecting enough pots from the fish to avoid this fate.

So small children don't need to hide in the basement yet?

 

[JustinInMN]

It's interesting reading the opinions on the tournament structures. From a money making POV, you generally want slightly faster structures that truncate early levels IMO. From a play/fun POV, I get wanting slower structures. I think both have merit, but from a money making POV, faster (within reason) is better.

This is actually a really good point. If you are a knowledgeable tournament player you probably have an advantage in understanding the adjustments needed for faster structure to avoid the hopeless 2BB spots fish find themselves in. For as few tournaments as I play, I know I have this edge if I enter one that would be a 20BB starting stack on level 4, other players haven't figured out what's happening to them yet.

 

[Anthony Martino]

It's interesting reading the opinions on the tournament structures. From a money making POV, you generally want slightly faster structures that truncate early levels IMO. From a play/fun POV, I get wanting slower structures. I think both have merit, but from a money making POV, faster (within reason) is better.

This is actually a really good point. If you are a knowledgeable tournament player you probably have an advantage in understanding the adjustments needed for faster structure to avoid the hopeless 2BB spots fish find themselves in. For as few tournaments as I play, I know I have this edge if I enter one that would be a 20BB starting stack on level 4, other players haven't figured out what's happening to them yet.

There is certainly a fine line to balance. Deeper structures favor players who are more skilled with post-flop play. You can lose a pot or two and still have a healthy enough stack to mount a comeback. Shallower structures mean you're going to be relying on luck more often than skill and having your tourney life on the line more frequently.

The weaker players are going to make much larger mistakes 300bb deep than they will 100bb deep, as a for instance. When you factor in not only yanking out two levels, but reducing the starting stack by a third (and then charging more for this tourney than their usual Saturday event and marketing it as a special tourney that draws in traveling players) to me it's just moving in the wrong direction.

If we don't speak up about our concerns, the next time they make changes it'll be even less favorable for the players, since they've started moving in that direction.

 

[Legend5555]

This is actually a really good point. If you are a knowledgeable tournament player you probably have an advantage in understanding the adjustments needed for faster structure to avoid the hopeless 2BB spots fish find themselves in. For as few tournaments as I play, I know I have this edge if I enter one that would be a 20BB starting stack on level 4, other players haven't figured out what's happening to them yet.

Tournament players are generally awful. While you can capitalize on them while deep for sure, and while shorter stacks tend to equalize skill to a degree, doubling from 20k to 40k early in a tourney is not nearly as important as doubling from 50k to 100k or even the same 20k to 40k later in a tournament. The early levels are generally meaningless as most tournament play when money matters is at less than 50bb.

 

[Kain8]

The early levels are generally meaningless as most tournament play when money matters is at less than 50bb.

Which basically devolves most single day MTTs into one maybe two crucial hands for all players.

 

[Legend5555]

Which basically devolves most single day MTTs into one maybe two crucial hands for all players.

Live tournaments below 1k to 1.5k buy in are generally just not worth the time off you are concerned about hourly rate. Online you can grind a million tournaments at once making it easier to realize your overall equity. Live tournaments for most of us are just about having fun because it's a fun change of pace from cash.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Only one guy was agreeing with him in the threads and everyone else wasn't happy with the structure, so if he can't win the fight he's going to end it I guess, lol. Passive-aggressive much?