Murdering IOC $25 House Mold (2 Viewers)

[BearMetal]

So I'm hot off the heels of my JACK Cincy murder project. Although it was hard to start it, once I found a good technique and the right tools, it went very smoothly.

I turned my eyes to my mixed house mold project. I need to do the exact same thing here, mainly to turn the IOC $25 chips into fracs.

I tried one last night... And it was an epic failure. If I thought those JACK Cincinnati chips were difficult, I don't know what I'm going to do about these IOC 25's. If I didn't know any better I would say its label is paper or something. It did not come off at all.

Has anyone tried murdering an IOC $25?

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

I murdered a rack of IOC snappers and 40x IOC $100s and none of them were particularly difficult... what kind of npr are you using?

 

[BearMetal]

I murdered the a rack of IOC snappers and 40x IOC $100s and none of them were particularly difficult... what kind of npr are you using?

My prior Jack Cincinnati project showed me the benefits of using isopropyl alcohol over NPR. I tried NPR on the one chip after the isopropyl failed miserably, and it made no difference. But just for reference, I have the non-acetone NPR.

The laminates were stupid crazy hard to remove too... On one side it took part of the material off as I lifted it up.

 

[Nanook]

.......I tried one last night... And it was an epic failure. If I thought those JACK Cincinnati chips were difficult, I don't know what I'm going to do about these IOC 25's. If I didn't know any better I would say its label is paper or something. It did not come off at all.

Has anyone tried murdering an IOC $25?.....

I haven't, but I doubt they are paper. How long are letting the non acetone nail polish remover (nanpr) sit on the vinyl?

My experience (and I have a lot) tells me that when you are struggling, the best solution is more nanpr & for a longer amount of time. You can leave that stuff puddled in the middle of the chip for 20 or even 30 minutes. Try one first just to make sure you aren't destroying your chips, but assuming it goes well, put more on there and leave it on longer

 

[BearMetal]

I haven't, but I doubt they are paper. How long are letting the non acetone nail polish remover (nanpr) sit on the vinyl?

My experience (and I have a lot) tells me that when you are struggling, the best solution is more nanpr & for a longer amount of time. You can leave that stuff puddled in the middle of the chip for 20 or even 30 minutes. Try one first just to make sure you aren't destroying your chips, but assuming it goes well, put more on there and leave it on longer

Yeah, I don't think they are paper because some of the pieces that I'm able to get off do have a slight bit of stretch to them before they rip. But still, it's unlike any other label I've ever seen on a Paulson chip.

I'm only letting the NPR sit on there for about 20 seconds. In the past, that's all that I have needed and they've just lifted right off. With the jack Cincinnati chips, even letting it soak overnight didn't help, I needed to do a special process where I lifted from the middle and then pulled from the edge. But I can't even get that to work on these chips. There's just no give.

I'll try letting the NPR sit on it for longer tonight and see what happens. It's like every time I try a different ship it gets harder. Just to make sure I wasn't going completely insane, I tried a few HSI snappers that I have lying around and I was able to get through the chip in about 30 seconds with a clean pull. The ones that did require a little bit of alcohol came off within an extra 10 seconds of letting the alcohol do its job.

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

I agree, make a little puddle on the vynil and let it sit for 30s. I've never had npr soak longer than that on non paper-lables and they always came off easily at some point.

 

[BearMetal]

I agree, make a little puddle on the vynil and let it sit for 30s. I've never had npr soak longer than that on non paper-lables and they always came off easily at some point.

Yep, that's exactly what I did. I did about 25 seconds give or take after I noticed it was being difficult. Didn't make a difference.

 

[Nanook]

Yep, that's exactly what I did. I did about 25 seconds give or take after I noticed it was being difficult. Didn't make a difference.

25 seconds is no where near enough time with some chips. The solvent has to penetrate the vinyl & if the vinyl didn't rip or pull up at all when you removed the laminate, or for some other reason the solvent isn't penetrating the vinyl, then you are just going to have to let it sit a while.

I usually do a bunch of chips at once. As I go through them removing the vinyl if one is particularly stubborn I don't spend much time on it at all, I just put some more nanpr on it and move on to the next chip. I'll wait on that chip while doing others and just come back to that one 5 or 10 minutes later.

This method has yet to fail me. I have now done at least 100 or more chips of each denom from HSI $1's, $5's, $25's, '$100's, JACK Cinci $1's, $5's, $25 primary, $25 secondary, $100 secondary, HS Cincinnati $1's, Sycuan $1, Lady Luck Caruthersville $25, Lucky Lady $1's etc, etc + a bunch more. My experience tells me that when you are having trouble, you need more solvent and/or more time for the solvent to do its job

 

[BearMetal]

Okay, so I'm completely stumped here. Let me see if I can just list the facts and see if anyone can come to a conclusion that makes sense.

• In the past I've always removed the laminate, and used NPR on the label. It used to lift right up and slide right off.
• With the JACK Cincinnati chips, the laminate basically just popped off without any force, but the label was very stubborn. NPR didn't seem to do anything on it. However isopropyl alcohol did.
• On the IOC house mold $25 chips, I can't even get the laminate off without some of the chip coming off with it. That sucker is on there. In fact it takes me a full minute just to get the laminate off. And that's with pulling with pliers from the outer edge while the chip is gripped like a vise in my hands.
• Once the laminate is off of the IOC chip, I tried both isopropyl alcohol and NPR each for 5 minutes. The isopropyl alcohol does next to nothing. However the NPR does eventually loosen parts of the label. I can get about 75% of it off without scraping, but there's 25% that remains that needs to be scraped.

Check out this picture of the laminate coming off. You can clearly see that it's taking bits of chip with it as it gets pulled off. I've never seen this before. These laminates are the toughest that I've ever had to pull off.

This is a completed chip. I used NPR on it for about 5 minutes and was able to get about 75% of the label off. But there were some spots of that label, especially toward the center, that just would not budge. Even gentle scraping and lifting while the NPR was on there did absolutely nothing.

 

[Nanook]

Okay, so I'm completely stumped here. Let me see if I can just list the facts and see if anyone can come to a conclusion that makes sense.

• In the past I've always removed the laminate, and used NPR on the label. It used to lift right up and slide right off.
• With the JACK Cincinnati chips, the laminate basically just popped off without any force, but the label was very stubborn. NPR didn't seem to do anything on it. However isopropyl alcohol did.
• On the IOC house mold $25 chips, I can't even get the laminate off without some of the chip coming off with it. That sucker is on there. In fact it takes me a full minute just to get the laminate off. And that's with pulling with pliers from the outer edge while the chip is gripped like a vise in my hands.
• Once the laminate is off of the IOC chip, I tried both isopropyl alcohol and NPR each for 5 minutes. The isopropyl alcohol does next to nothing. However the NPR does eventually loosen parts of the label. I can get about 75% of it off without scraping, but there's 25% that remains that needs to be scraped.

Check out this picture of the laminate coming off. You can clearly see that it's taking bits of chip with it as it gets pulled off. I've never seen this before. These laminates are the toughest that I've ever had to pull off.

View attachment 697078

This is a completed chip. I used NPR on it for about 5 minutes and was able to get about 75% of the label off. But there were some spots of that label, especially toward the center, that just would not budge. Even gentle scraping and lifting while the NPR was on there did absolutely nothing.

View attachment 697079

Yep, that is not that uncommon at all. HS Cinci are just like that with the laminate being really stubborn. I've had a few others like that too....

As for the vinyl, I'll reiterate once again, more nanpr for a longer amount of time. You are being WAY too timid with the amount and time you are leaving it on. Sure, if the vinyl comes right off easily with only a short time then, by all means just leave it in there for a short time, but if the vinyl is stubborn you NEED to put MORE on there & leave it on there LONGER!

 

[BearMetal]

As for the vinyl, I'll reiterate once again, more nanpr for a longer amount of time. You are being WAY too timid with the amount and time you are leaving it on. Sure, if the vinyl comes right off easily with only a short time then, by all means just leave it in there for a short time, but if the vinyl is stubborn you NEED to put MORE on there & leave it on there LONGER!

OK, but I'm scared

So, I fell in love with the isopropyl alcohol on the JACK cincy chips b/c it didn't discolor them at all. The NPR absolutely causes fading on the green chips. I use a dropper to be as precise as possible, but leaving it on there still discolors them.

I guess that's my price for these IOC chips; I have to use more NPR for longer and just deal with oiling after to try to restore the color. F-ing Paulson

Edit: Also, what's about that damn laminate. My god, pulling it up causes pieces to come off. Like, WTF!

 

[CrazyEddie]

Try using heat to soften the laminate. No idea if it'll work, but it's worth a try.

You don't need to get the chip perfectly clean. You just need to remove enough material so that whatever's left doesn't cause any adhesion problems for the new label or leave an uneven texture that can be felt through the new label. If what's left is stuck firmly to the chip, and the new label can be stuck firmly to that, then you'll be fine.

 

[Nanook]

OK, but I'm scared

Man up dude... Gotta get over it. I think you are overthinking this and thinking that these things are more fragile than they actually are.

So, I fell in love with the isopropyl alcohol on the JACK cincy chips b/c it didn't discolor them at all. The NPR absolutely causes fading on the green chips. I use a dropper to be as precise as possible, but leaving it on there still discolors them.

You are right. When the alcohol works it is great because it dries so fast, & no discoloration at all. All color variations seem to disappear once you oil them though.

I guess that's my price for these IOC chips; I have to use more NPR for longer and just deal with oiling after to try to restore the color. F-ing Paulson

Yea, just oil them. They most likely need it anyway.

Edit: Also, what's about that damn laminate. My god, pulling it up causes pieces to come off. Like, WTF!

I am 100% sure that over time Paulson has changed their procedure many times in regard to the whole manufacturing process. They have used different type of materials and adhesives for sure as there is just no way there would be such a difference in how they come apart.

 

[Nanook]

Try using heat to soften the laminate. No idea if it'll work, but it's worth a try.

You don't need to get the chip perfectly clean. You just need to remove enough material so that whatever's left doesn't cause any adhesion problems for the new label or leave an uneven texture that can be felt through the new label. If what's left is stuck firmly to the chip, and the new label can be stuck firmly to that, then you'll be fine.

I would caution against this. Heat can warp the chips. They can be flattened again so I guess that is no big deal, but I'm not sure it is going to help much anyway unless you get them hotter than you probably should. A much better & proven solution is to just leave the nanpr on there a bit longer. Stop worrying about discoloration or somehow ruining the chip. They are pretty tough and will be fine.

I guarantee you with a 100% refund policy that if you do as I say the all the vinyl will come off easily.

 

[Marius L]

Try using heat to soften the laminate. No idea if it'll work, but it's worth a try.

You don't need to get the chip perfectly clean. You just need to remove enough material so that whatever's left doesn't cause any adhesion problems for the new label or leave an uneven texture that can be felt through the new label. If what's left is stuck firmly to the chip, and the new label can be stuck firmly to that, then you'll be fine.

Careful with not removing all of the material as well. I left some pieces of the paper inlay on a small handful of chips to test when I did my relabel set. It was visible on some chips, and could be felt on some others. Both cases are less than ideal obviously.

I also had trouble with getting the labels of perfectly on all chops with NPR. Honestly about 95% of mine were done without NPR, because the two versions I tested both dissolved /discolored the chips. I ended up just scraping the leftovers of the inlays off with my knife. Although time consuming, it worked very well.

 

[BearMetal]

You don't need to get the chip perfectly clean. You just need to remove enough material so that whatever's left doesn't cause any adhesion problems for the new label or leave an uneven texture that can be felt through the new label. If what's left is stuck firmly to the chip, and the new label can be stuck firmly to that, then you'll be fine.

I've definitely felt paper left over under a laminated/smooth Gear label. And I've also felt scrape marks. I think I just need to deal with the NPR and get over it and resign to the fact that I'll need to oil.

Man up dude... Gotta get over it.

Hah, I know I know ... it's just that when you find something that works easier/better and you get used to it, then you feel entitled to easy removal.

I also had trouble with getting the labels of perfectly on all chops with NPR. Honestly about 95% of mine were done without NPR, because the two versions I tested both dissolved /discolored the chips.

They dissolved the chips! The NPR I used on my JACK Detroit didn't dissolved them - just discolored the green. You've had it dissolve Paulson chips? Tell me they were like 40 years old or something.

So, yeah, I think the way forward here is NPR + time + rinsing + oiling. The laminate sucks; I wish it would come up nicely; I do think that heat would warp the chips and I would spend more time heating, and then re-flattening them than I would if I just went stupid slow.

 

[Nanook]

I've definitely felt paper left over under a laminated/smooth Gear label. And I've also felt scrape marks. I think I just need to deal with the NPR and get over it and resign to the fact that I'll need to oil.

Yea, I would be careful not to leave anything and also be a little careful not to cut too deep (if cutting the laminate) as you sometimes can feel/see the after effects of murder if you are too careless

Hah, I know I know ... it's just that when you find something that works easier/better and you get used to it, then you feel entitled to easy removal.

Yea, I get this, but the more of these you do, the more you will realize that they just are not all the same. Different chemicals in the adhesive and the chip and the inlay all react differently to different solvents. Sometimes you just have to experiment a little and see what works best as they there really isn't a 1 size fits all perfect solution here.

They dissolved the chips! The NPR I used on my JACK Detroit didn't dissolved them - just discolored the green. You've had it dissolve Paulson chips? Tell me they were like 40 years old or something.

I have had this happen using acetone & acetone based nail polish remover would do the same. If this happens you are going to know right away that something is wrong. The entire chip just sort of starts to melt and the colors melt together. It is a big mess that you want to avoid. Best practice is to do whatever you are doing on 1 or 2 chips 1st as a trial run and make sure everything is going to work out. Only after successful completion of a murder or 2 proceed to mass murder.

So, yeah, I think the way forward here is NPR + time + rinsing + oiling.

Yes

 

[BearMetal]

Yea, I get this, but the more of these you do, the more you will realize that they just are not all the same. Different chemicals in the adhesive and the chip and the inlay all react differently to different solvents. Sometimes you just have to experiment a little and see what works best as they there really isn't a 1 size fits all perfect solution here.

Yup, I'm definitely finding that out. I had thought that chips produced around the same time (RHCs from the past 10 years) would all be similar, but that's not the case. Like, if I could sum up some of the ones I've done:

JACK Detroit $25 Secondary RHC

• Laminate: medium
• Label: easy with NPR, medium with isopropyl

JACK Detroit $100 RHC

• Laminate: medium
• Label: medium with NPR, easy with isopropyl

IOC $25 House Mold

• Laminate: extremely hard
• Label: hard with NPR, impossible with isopropyl

JACK Cincy $25 Secondary RHC:

• Laminate: easy
• Label: hard with NPR, medium with isopropyl

HSI $2.50 Secondary RHC:

• Laminate: easy
• Label: easy (isopropyl if needed)

... like wow - such a different for chips made around the same time.

I think the takeaway is this: if you plan on a murder project, you might want to try a sample chip first before buying 2 racks of them. Or reach out and ask someone who might have done that EXACT CHIP before.

 

[Marius L]

They dissolved the chips! The NPR I used on my JACK Detroit didn't dissolved them - just discolored the green. You've had it dissolve Paulson chips? Tell me they were like 40 years old or something.

So, yeah, I think the way forward here is NPR + time + rinsing + oiling. The laminate sucks; I wish it would come up nicely; I do think that heat would warp the chips and I would spend more time heating, and then re-flattening them than I would if I just went stupid slow.

Yeah, I was pretty sure I wasn't using acetone based npr, but I must be wrong.

I obviously stopped and washed it as soon as I realized, so it didn't end up crazy bad, bit definitely did something with the chip material. It got all mushy when I put pressure on it with my thumb.

 

[BearMetal]

Well, it's done. It sucked. Like, REALLY sucked. These were the hardest inlays I've ever had to remove. Some notes:

• I needed to do an almost parallel slice of the laminate in order to get it raised up enough to pull it.
• The laminate was really bolted on; even pulling carefully seemed to caused chip material to come off at the edges of where the laminate met the chip.
• Alcohol did nothing; NPR was required. Some labels came off with no problems after about 1 minute of NPR. Others required serious scraping even after 5 minutes

 

[allforcharity]

Well, it's done. It sucked. Like, REALLY sucked. These were the hardest inlays I've ever had to remove. Some notes:

• I needed to do an almost parallel slice of the laminate in order to get it raised up enough to pull it.
• The laminate was really bolted on; even pulling carefully seemed to caused chip material to come off at the edges of where the laminate met the chip.
• Alcohol did nothing; NPR was required. Some labels came off with no problems after about 1 minute of NPR. Others required serious scraping even after 5 minutes

View attachment 711664

View attachment 711665

Welcome to the harsh side of chip murder.

 

[BearMetal]

Welcome to the harsh side of chip murder.

Indeed. Lessons learned, which is always a good thing. Hopefully a n00B finds this thread so they understand that not all murder is equal.

 

[joker80]

I wonder if the metallic flake makes it harder? I had some Aztar Evansvillle RHC with silver flake in them and the inlay adhered to the flake

 

[allforcharity]

I wonder if the metallic flake makes it harder?

No, I don't think so.

 

[grantc54]

Yup, I'm definitely finding that out. I had thought that chips produced around the same time (RHCs from the past 10 years) would all be similar, but that's not the case. Like, if I could sum up some of the ones I've done:

JACK Detroit $25 Secondary RHC

• Laminate: medium
• Label: easy with NPR, medium with isopropyl

JACK Detroit $100 RHC

• Laminate: medium
• Label: medium with NPR, easy with isopropyl

IOC $25 House Mold

• Laminate: extremely hard
• Label: hard with NPR, impossible with isopropyl

JACK Cincy $25 Secondary RHC:

• Laminate: easy
• Label: hard with NPR, medium with isopropyl

HSI $2.50 Secondary RHC:

• Laminate: easy
• Label: easy (isopropyl if needed)

... like wow - such a different for chips made around the same time.

I think the takeaway is this: if you plan on a murder project, you might want to try a sample chip first before buying 2 racks of them. Or reach out and ask someone who might have done that EXACT CHIP before.

Great breakdown. One thing to add, I have found that when using NPR the best application time varies chip by chip. I think the label/glue used react differently.

For example, I find Paradice $25s (a total pain) can require a longer application time whereas some newer chips actually are easier to do after less time (the NPR dissipates quickly?).

Just another factor to consider.

 

[BearMetal]

Great breakdown. One thing to add, I have found that when using NPR the best application time varies chip by chip. I think the label/glue used react differently.

For example, I find Paradice $25s (a total pain) can require a longer application time whereas some newer chips actually are easier to do after less time (the NPR dissipates quickly?).

Just another factor to consider.

Absolutely! NPR seems to require various times compared to isopropyl. With alcohol, it's either going to dissolve it almost immediately or not at all.

But I found that with NPR it can go from anywhere between 30 seconds and several minutes depending on the chip. The trick for me has been with those longer soaks to try to prevent any of the NPR from touching the clay. I seem to have lots of bad luck with discoloration.

 

[Pinkdan]

I have so many RHC chips to murder… I’m scared

 

[BearMetal]

I just realized that I don't think I ever posted a picture of the final product!

 

[BearMetal]

I have so many RHC chips to murder… I’m scared

I was scared too. But, sitting there on those cold winter nights in my murder room, I began to feel a certain closeness to the chips. They looked up at me and almost asked to be murdered. Their stupid, horribly designed inlays just begging to be set free... Those ridiculous $25 labels aching to be turned into something that my loser friends would be willing to put on the table...

 

[Pinkdan]

I just realized that I don't think I ever posted a picture of the final product!

View attachment 908143

Where did you get that chip holder? @Tommy? I need one of those in my life