Mid to end tournament three way spot (1 Viewer)

[JMC9389]

Only posting this late because it's fresh on my mind and I want to make sure I get the details correct. Game is a five handed progressive bounty game in which bounties worth cash are the focal point of the game rather than a prize pool for a standard tournament.

Pertinent cast of characters are below:

Small blind is short stacked at 8100 left. He has a $100 bounty on his head, the highest at the table. Hero's impression of this player is that he's loose and passive but hero has less hands played against him than anyone else remaining.

BB is @sgago84 that has bought in for a third time but has been on a warpath since. His stack is over 60K. His bounty is worth $80 though not important here.

Hero is me on the button with 31K behind with a bounty worth $60.

Blinds are 800/1600 and hero and BB are pretty deep with SB with the small stack. Top 3 pay but the prize pool is inconsequential relative to the bounty values.

Preflop: UTG+ 1 and cutoff fold. Hero looks down at

Hero?

 

[sgago84]

I’m a little hazy on details on this hand. I don’t think you were wrong to call Pre-flop.

 

[Eriks]

I’m a little hazy on details on this hand. I don’t think you were wrong to call Pre-flop. I do remember that I had A9 and didnt raise pre-flop so felt My hand was under represented. After flop SB checked and I bet pretty small with TPTK. At this point I think you jammed? I could be wrong, can’t remember. Since there wasn’t much pre-flop action I figured best you had was 2 pair and I would just pay you off. If you only had 1 pair then I was good. If I was wrong I’d still have half my stack to play with. So the only thing I would say is not to jam all in there. Blinds were high but you had some room to play with a raise.

*spoiler alert*

 

[upNdown]

Without reading the apparent spoiler above,
I think K9 suited is generally a raising hand, 5-handed, even if you’re not in the best position. Small blind is down to 5bb; so you have to assume he’ll jam it in at any point, so a small raise is silly. And the big stack is likely to re-shove to isolate that small blind’s big bounty.
So I think to get involved in this hand, you need to be ready to commit your stack. You never mentioned how much this tournament cost you, or how much those inconsequential payouts actually are, so it’s tough to make a decision without that information. But I think I’m leaving toward a fold here. If you are opening, I think you need to make it for at least 8100, to show strength and hopefully make the big stack’s decision tougher?

 

[grebe]

I dont know the specifics of how to play a progressive bounty tournament. In a regular tournament 5 handed in position, this is in my raising range. We are just under 20 BB's. Raise 2X and look to play a flop.

EDIT: scratch anything I said. upNdown seems to be on top of it.

 

[sgago84]

I redacted my post. Wasn’t aware we were going to play this out.

 

[JMC9389]

Without reading the apparent spoiler above,
I think K9 suited is generally a raising hand, 5-handed, even if you’re not in the best position. Small blind is down to 5bb; so you have to assume he’ll jam it in at any point, so a small raise is silly. And the big stack is likely to re-shove to isolate that small blind’s big bounty.
So I think to get involved in this hand, you need to be ready to commit your stack. You never mentioned how much this tournament cost you, or how much those inconsequential payouts actually are, so it’s tough to make a decision without that information. But I think I’m leaving toward a fold here. If you are opening, I think you need to make it for at least 8100, to show strength and hopefully make the big stack’s decision tougher?

Buy in was $50, $10 towards the prize pool, $40 per buy in towards the bounty. We were 10 handed to start with 5 or 6 rebuys on the night for a total of about $600 or so in bounties on the table, with 1st paying $75, 2nd $45, and 3rd $35 (I think?) out of the prize pool.

I agree with this. I had the button, so I was in position, and can more or less dictate how I want to play this postflop. However, right now, I still have the short stack in the small blind and BB still to worry about.

So this is what was going through my mind.

I think there's definitely merit to folding here. K9 suited is a good, but not great hand five handed, but do I want to commit my entire stack on it?

Flatting is ok but probably not ideal. It lets hero see what SB and BB are going to do before deciding on how much to commit.

Min raising is an absolute disaster. If SB jams and BB wakes up with a hand and rejams, I burned 2 BB's for nothing. K9 suited would be live against most holdings.

On the other hand, I don't think this hand is quite good enough to raise here to put SB all in. If BB calls or rejams, again, total nightmare scenario.

With all this in mind, I've seen this particular villain in the small blind jam with worse hands than K9 suited in my limited game experience against him, so I opt to limp the 1600 and let SB and BB bet my hand for me.

Further action below:

SB of course jams all in for his remaining 8100. BB thinks for about 10 seconds before announcing that he is calling the 8100 bet. Pot is now 17800.

Hero?

 

[Eriks]

I think a minraise and calling it off if sb shoves and bb folds is fine. Obv fold if bb reshoves and overcall if he calls and smack that flop.

As played, it’s either a fold or a shove. Most likely a fold imo.

I don’t play tournaments though so what do I know

 

[sgago84]

@JMC9389 now I remember the hand. Clearly the only thing worse than my poker play is my poker memory.

 

[upNdown]

Just to clarify the format - you said sb has a $100 bounty on his head. If you take him out, does $100 go in your pocket, or does $50 go in your pocket and the other $50 goes on your head?

 

[JMC9389]

Just to clarify the format - you said sb has a $100 bounty on his head. If you take him out, does $100 go in your pocket, or does $50 go in your pocket and the other $50 goes on your head?

The latter is correct.

If I win this hand, $50 goes into my pocket and the remaining $50 is added to my bounty. That $50 is what I'm in for and I already won a $20 bounty earlier, so this would allow me to be up on the night no matter what if I win the hand regardless of where I place.

 

[JMC9389]

Also will ping @DrStrange and @Senzrock for their thoughts before I post the rest.

 

[upNdown]

Buy in was $50, $10 towards the prize pool, $40 per buy in towards the bounty. We were 10 handed to start with 5 or 6 rebuys on the night for a total of about $600 or so in bounties on the table, with 1st paying $75, 2nd $45, and 3rd $35 (I think?) out of the prize pool.

I agree with this. I had the button, so I was in position, and can more or less dictate how I want to play this postflop. However, right now, I still have the short stack in the small blind and BB still to worry about.

So this is what was going through my mind.

I think there's definitely merit to folding here. K9 suited is a good, but not great hand five handed, but do I want to commit my entire stack on it?

Flatting is ok but probably not ideal. It lets hero see what SB and BB are going to do before deciding on how much to commit.

Min raising is an absolute disaster. If SB jams and BB wakes up with a hand and rejams, I burned 2 BB's for nothing. K9 suited would be live against most holdings.

On the other hand, I don't think this hand is quite good enough to raise here to put SB all in. If BB calls or rejams, again, total nightmare scenario.

With all this in mind, I've seen this particular villain in the small blind jam with worse hands than K9 suited in my limited game experience against him, so I opt to limp the 1600 and let SB and BB bet my hand for me.

Further action below:

SB of course jams all in for his remaining 8100. BB thinks for about 10 seconds before announcing that he is calling the 8100 bet. Pot is now 17800.

Hero?

I’m not used to this format, nor do I play many bounty tournaments at all. But I guess I’d also want to know what the other two stacks are. I feel like I’d be more inclined to fold if I had the other two covered (and so there were two other bounties that I could win in a single hand.)
But regardless, the argument for a flat at this point isn’t bad - if we smash the flop, we’re in good shape to come out ahead on the night, while leaving ourselves the option to fold and have 15bb to keep fighting.

But yeah, I think the other two stacks (and their bounties) are relevant to this decision.

 

[JMC9389]

I’m not used to this format, nor do I play many bounty tournaments at all. But I guess I’d also want to know what the other two stacks are. I feel like I’d be more inclined to fold if I had the other two covered (and so there were two other bounties that I could win in a single hand.)
But regardless, the argument for a flat at this point isn’t bad - if we smash the flop, we’re in good shape to come out ahead on the night, while leaving ourselves the option to fold and have 15bb to keep fighting.

But yeah, I think the other two stacks (and their bounties) are relevant to this decision.

Stack sizes are definitely important here. Blinds are 800/1600 and I have about 31K behind after the 1600 limp with a $60 bounty. SB is short stacked at 8100 with a $100 bounty and BB (@sgago84) has both of us well covered at above 60K. That leaves me at just under 20 BB's and the SB 5 or so. Plenty of room to maneuver post flop if it gets there but the pot size if I call is about a pot size bet. If I call and see something I like, it's an easy shove but if I fold, it still leaves me plenty of room to play another hand and not just shove pre.

 

[upNdown]

Stack sizes are definitely important here. Blinds are 800/1600 and I have about 31K behind after the 1600 limp with a $60 bounty. SB is short stacked at 8100 with a $100 bounty and BB (@sgago84) has both of us well covered at above 60K. That leaves me at just under 20 BB's and the SB 5 or so. Plenty of room to maneuver post flop if it gets there but the pot size if I call is about a pot size bet. If I call and see something I like, it's an easy shove but if I fold, it still leaves me plenty of room to play another hand and not just shove pre.

No, I meant the stack sizes of the two guys not involved in this hand? Are either (or both) shorties, that you’d maybe be able to knock out on a future hand, if you don’t get involved in this one? Do you remember their stack sizes and bounty amounts?

 

[JMC9389]

No, I meant the stack sizes of the two guys not involved in this hand? Are either (or both) shorties, that you’d maybe be able to knock out on a future hand, if you don’t get involved in this one? Do you remember their stack sizes and bounty amounts?

Best I can remember, the other two are at about 35K and 25Kish, respectively. I think I was the middle of the road stack at the time.

 

[Irish]

Best I can remember, the other two are at about 35K and 25Kish, respectively. I think I was the middle of the road stack at the time.

That's about right, each with bounty values of $80.

 

[DrStrange]

Raise > fold > call. This late in the event Hero shouldn't be limping in for 5% of his stack More so knowing on villain is playing a roughly M = 3 sized stack. This player is going to shove a huge range of hands.

Sizing for Hero's raise is an interesting question. Vs observant villains, I am inclined to raise just small enough to allow the short stack shove to reopen the betting. Vs more typical blind villains, hero might make a more "normal" raise - what ever that is for him.

Keep in mind my tournament game is weak. Advice isn't worth so much from me -=- DrStrange

 

[JMC9389]

Raise > fold > call. This late in the event Hero shouldn't be limping in for 5% of his stack More so knowing on villain is playing a roughly M = 3 sized stack. This player is going to shove a huge range of hands.

Sizing for Hero's raise is an interesting question. Vs observant villains, I am inclined to raise just small enough to allow the short stack shove to reopen the betting. Vs more typical blind villains, hero might make a more "normal" raise - what ever that is for him.

Keep in mind my tournament game is weak. Advice isn't worth so much from me -=- DrStrange

Thanks for your input doc. In this scenario, I'm the middle stack at the table with a good chance to cash, but with the format of the game being played, 2nd or 3rd place money is minuscule compared to the cash that can be made by knocking out players from the tournament.

Truth be told, if this is a normal T10,000 base tournament with standard top 3 placing in the money in a pool of ten players, this is probably a groan fold to a call from the big stack following an all in from the short stack and I opt to live another day. With the dynamics of the game being different with the large bounty at stake from the all in player, it changes my thinking of how I approach things. Do I go for broke here and shove to try and get out what I think is a hand that may have a weak to modest ace in it that called the shove to represent something better on a limp/shove, or do I see a flop with two live cards and proceed based on what is seen there? With the thinking that I can either cut bait if I brick it or move in if I pick up a heart draw or see a king or a nine.

I'll wrap this up tonight, but I ended up tanking on this one for over a minute before making a decision.

 

[sgago84]

@JMC9389 it’s interesting that you put it that way. Because of the tournament format when SB shoved I only called for this reason. I’m a normal tournament with my hand I would have leaned toward a re-raise to isolate and give me mediocre hand better odds. But since it was a bounty. I paused for several seconds and decided it was better to have you in the hand. I didn’t know for sure if you would come along. A re-raise shove from you would have made me re-think that strategy of course.

 

[JMC9389]

@JMC9389 it’s interesting that you put it that way. Because of the tournament format when SB shoved I only called for this reason. I’m a normal tournament with my hand I would have leaned toward a re-raise to isolate and give me mediocre hand better odds. But since it was a bounty. I paused for several seconds and decided it was better to have you in the hand. I didn’t know for sure if you would come along. A re-raise shove from you would have made me re-think that strategy of course.

I'll share my final thoughts upon revealing the end result of this hand, but my thought was that you would have shoved just about any pocket pair or Ace King. Nines or better minimum.

I had 3 to 1 odds with a hand that was probably behind, but had equity, plus I was sooted. For this reason, I decided to call, and see a flop.

Pot is 24,300 and hero has a little less than that behind.

Flop comes

BB leads out for 10K.

Hero?

 

[JMC9389]

Just realized I never concluded this. Will post the rest in about four hours, but will bump for any action recommendations at this point!

 

[TheDogg]

I think definitely RFI K9s from all positions 5 handed. Small blind shoving range should be extremely light here. If you fold he should be shoving 90% of his range. The limp shows weakness and he should be shoving very light against you.

You actually want the SB to reshove to get the BB out of the action, K9 should be very strong against the small blind.

Either the way action is described or how it actually goes, you can absolutely take this flop in position with K9s for 5 BBs.

When the flop comes put 966, you shove all in. Theres a bit chance BB has a dumb 6x hand that called SB shove hoping to be heads up but if he has 6x or A9 you just have to take the L