Limit vs No Limit (2 Viewers)

[Shaggy]

Ed Miller's low stakes hold em book is a great read for this. His advice basically it's play very tight early, but start playing more prospect hands later in position. If you are drawing, try to be drawing to the nuts. Manipulate the pots to give you great odds.



Also realize the rake will chew you up here at low stakes. Break even is beating most the field.

^^^This

also... it does sound like you need to tighten up. You should be three betting strong hands in position. Playing hands that can become the nuts. Everything stated above is good.

 

[BonScot]

^^^This

also... it does sound like you need to tighten up. You should be three betting strong hands in position. Playing hands that can become the nuts. Everything stated above is good.

Cool I’ll see if it’s something I can get on the kindle

 

[Saoliver]

The rake has been mentioned. It is a KILLER at lower limits.

I played a ton of $3/$6 and $4/$8 limit from 18 to 30yo. So difficult to be profitable here. WA casinos rake 10% up to $4 max, plus $3 to the Monte Carlo jackpot if they have it. So at $3/$6 or $4/$8, that’s essentially a big bet out of every pot. If you jump up to $8/$16 limit, you just cut the rake in half.

The competition will be better, but I have found it’s not that much better. If you are playing with sound fundamentals (learned in lower limits), then you should be profitable.

 

[BonScot]

The rake has been mentioned. It is a KILLER at lower limits.

I played a ton of $3/$6 and $4/$8 limit from 18 to 30yo. So difficult to be profitable here. WA casinos rake 10% up to $4 max. So at $3/$6 or $4/$8, that’s essentially a small bet out of every pot. If you jump up to $8/$16 limit, you just cut the rake in half.

The competition will be better, but I have found it’s not that much better. If you are playing with sound fundamentals (learned in lower limits), then you should be profitable.

Very hard to find enough players at a fixed limit game online with higher stakes than .50/1.00

 

[RocAFella1]

What you gonna ask about next? Mid strength beer?

What leggings to wear under a kilt.

 

[BonScot]

What leggings to wear under a kilt.

Nothing... Just your wife’s lipstick

legendary story that one of the extras said that to Mel Gibson when he asked that question when filming Braveheart

 

[Mr Winberg]

here's some advice, just play premium hands, you only start with jacks or better if its good enough to call you've also got to be in there raising, tight but aggressive and I do mean aggressive, you've got to think of it as a war

 

[BonScot]

here's some advice, just play premium hands, you only start with jacks or better if its good enough to call you've also got to be in there raising, tight but aggressive and I do mean aggressive, you've got to think of it as a war

I can only find 6 handed games so I’m playing 99 or better.

 

[moose]

When first in, NEVER limp. If you feel you can't raise, you should fold.

3 bet the LAGS endlessly in position to get heads up.

NEVER cold call a raise preflop, ALWAYS 3 bet or fold. I'm guessing this is your biggest leak.

Don't defend your blinds unless you are getting the correct pot odds relative to the strength of your hands. Also watch how many times the CO, button, SB is open raising your blinds - if they are too aggressive don't be afraid to 3 bet from time to time. Similarly for you, if the blinds fold too much always open for a raise from CO, button or sb when folded to you.

Unless you have it, always fold to the nits and never fold a pair heads up to anyone else. Check/call down the cbetters when heads up. Similarly beware multiway pots if not last to act. Position is everything.

Sometimes it is the bets you save that determine your profit instead of the bets you make. Nothing wrong with checking back flops you miss and fold if bet into when you miss against the ABC players. Fit or fold should be your motto.

I multitabled a lot when playing limit, 8-10 tables during my heavy playing days. Makes it easier to play TAG preflop and let go hands you miss on the flop. I guess playing a zoom table is similar nowadays.

Limit is a good game when played properly.

 

[BonScot]

When first in, NEVER limp. If you feel you can't raise, you should fold.

3 bet the LAGS endlessly in position to get heads up.

NEVER cold call a raise preflop, ALWAYS 3 bet or fold. I'm guessing this is your biggest leak.

Don't defend your blinds unless you are getting the correct pot odds relative to the strength of your hands. Also watch how many times the CO, button, SB is open raising your blinds - if they are too aggressive don't be afraid to 3 bet from time to time. Similarly for you, if the blinds fold too much always open for a raise from CO, button or sb when folded to you.

Unless you have it, always fold to the nits and never fold a pair heads up to anyone else. Check/call down the cbetters.

Sometimes it is the bets you save that determine your profit instead of the bets you make. Nothing wrong with checking back flops you miss and fold if bet into when you miss against the ABC players. Fit or fold should be your motto.

I multitable a lot when playing limit, 8-10 tables during my heavy playing days. Makes it easier to play TAG preflop and let go hands you miss on the flop. I guess playing a zoom table is similar nowadays.

Thanks for the tips
I’m finding it difficult to get past break even but sounds like the rake is a major factor in that.

 

[churlbut18]

here's some advice, just play premium hands, you only start with jacks or better if its good enough to call you've also got to be in there raising, tight but aggressive and I do mean aggressive, you've got to think of it as a war

#Mike McDermott

 

[Mr Winberg]

#Mike McDermott

Yeah, I taught him that. That's why he could beat the world champion Johnny fuckin Chan in that one hand, proving to himself that he could beat the best.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yes, you should draw more in limit. Yes, you shouldn't bluff as often in limit. The way to beat limit is to exploit looseness by value betting relentlessly.

It's not as showy as an all in-shove bluff, which for the life of me seems to be the main appeal of No Limit, but it is the way to win.

 

[JustinInMN]

I’m finding that. Almost impossible to get guys to fold as they chase all the way to the river. Just took two bad beats in a row and can’t believe the hands that were chased to the river.

So think about this. If the weakness your opposition is showing is calling too much it should be obvious that building a strategy around making opponents fold is a bad idea. (And most players are just in love with poker only for the dominating "I can make this guy fold" strategy without any thoughts of rounding out strategy beyond that.) You have to exploit their over-calling by betting for value when you have it. Jam the pot on your best draws, make bets and raises when you flop well, your opponents will still make their gutters and 2 out sets with the same frequency, but you are charging double for all the times they miss.

Also, river play is very important in limit. You need to bet the goods more than you would in NL. Part of the reason for this is the "penalty" for going for value when you are behind in limit is much smaller relative to the pot than in no-limit. Say you have a medium hand like top pair good kicker and get outdrawn and raised on the river. It costs you one more bet, no big deal. Especially if you collect a full bet four times as often in that similar spot from the hands you beat. You are ahead on that deal than if you just check every time and pay off when you are behind. If you get outdrawn and raised on the river in no-limit, it could cost you your stack.

One of the first leaks I look for if I am on a losing streak is if I am playing too careful on the river.
The next is am I peeling too many turns.
Third is starting hands, but really any pf strategy that is rather snug early and looser lat is pretty good unless you are in a game with a lot of preflop aggression, then you have to screw it down. (And Ideally change seats to get position on the aggressor and go for thinner 3 bets against such a player)

$5 put into pot and 888 poker took 88c rake. That’s pretty damn high.

Yikes that's worse than live. Even at the 2/4 games at my local room are 10% up to 4 + 2 for the promo drop on $15. So the worst case scenario is 20% in a pot that is somehow exactly $15. Online rake over 5% is pretty much greedy as far as I am concerned. But again, I play so little online since black Friday so I am probably out of touch.

Limit is math, getting odds to chase, it's nearly impossible to bluff, and you'll never get someone to lay down a hand. That about sums it up.

It's certainly more than that, but don't underestimate the importance of knowing your opposition. It's every bit as important to know who to target for thin value and who should never be bluffed. There are bluffing opportunities in limit when you get more experience, but one has to know their opponent very well.

I had a perfect tell on a guy once, worked 100%. Everytime I was in a pot with that guy if he called a flop bet and reached back to his stack after releasing the call, he planned to fold the turn unless he improved. I was betting pretty much 100% of turns into this guy with virtual impunity.

I prefer my poker to be in the $50 risk range. I like limit at $3-6 or $4-8.

That's only like 6-8 bets? When I play limit I am prepared to put 50 big bets in play. (My usual buy-ins are about 25-30 big bets at a time.) I am willing to go $200-400 deep at 4/8.

 

[Lemonzest]

Pot odds are extremely important... as is understanding your equity.

In many NL sessions whether you won or lost money will come down to 1 or 2 big spots and whether or not you won those big pots. On the contrary limit is all about the grind and making many mathematically correct decisions over the long term. For good limit players they can show much more stable and predictable results compared to NL.

 

[BonScot]

So think about this. If the weakness your opposition is showing is calling too much it should be obvious that building a strategy around making opponents fold is a bad idea. (And most players are just in love with poker only for the dominating "I can make this guy fold" strategy without any thoughts of rounding out strategy beyond that.) You have to exploit their over-calling by betting for value when you have it. Jam the pot on your best draws, make bets and raises when you flop well, your opponents will still make their gutters and 2 out sets with the same frequency, but you are charging double for all the times they miss.

Also, river play is very important in limit. You need to bet the goods more than you would in NL. Part of the reason for this is the "penalty" for going for value when you are behind in limit is much smaller relative to the pot than in no-limit. Say you have a medium hand like top pair good kicker and get outdrawn and raised on the river. It costs you one more bet, no big deal. Especially if you collect a full bet four times as often in that similar spot from the hands you beat. You are ahead on that deal than if you just check every time and pay off when you are behind. If you get outdrawn and raised on the river in no-limit, it could cost you your stack.

One of the first leaks I look for if I am on a losing streak is if I am playing too careful on the river.
The next is am I peeling too many turns.
Third is starting hands, but really any pf strategy that is rather snug early and looser lat is pretty good unless you are in a game with a lot of preflop aggression, then you have to screw it down. (And Ideally change seats to get position on the aggressor and go for thinner 3 bets against such a player)



Yikes that's worse than live. Even at the 2/4 games at my local room are 10% up to 4 + 2 for the promo drop on $15. So the worst case scenario is 20% in a pot that is somehow exactly $15. Online rake over 5% is pretty much greedy as far as I am concerned. But again, I play so little online since black Friday so I am probably out of touch.



It's certainly more than that, but don't underestimate the importance of knowing your opposition. It's every bit as important to know who to target for thin value and who should never be bluffed. There are bluffing opportunities in limit when you get more experience, but one has to know their opponent very well.

I had a perfect tell on a guy once, worked 100%. Everytime I was in a pot with that guy if he called a flop bet and reached back to his stack after releasing the call, he planned to fold the turn unless he improved. I was betting pretty much 100% of turns into this guy with virtual impunity.



That's only like 6-8 bets? When I play limit I am prepared to put 50 big bets in play. (My usual buy-ins are about 25-30 big bets at a time.) I am willing to go $200-400 deep at 4/8.

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write that

 

[Poker Zombie]

That's only like 6-8 bets? When I play limit I am prepared to put 50 big bets in play. (My usual buy-ins are about 25-30 big bets at a time.) I am willing to go $200-400 deep at 4/8.

Perhaps "risk" was poor phrasing. I'll buy in $200-$400, but in limit holdem, I rarely am about to risk that much. It could happen, but most limit games I've played had more "Old Man Coffee" opponents than LAGs. The LAGs tend to look for the NL tables, so my buy-in isn't really at risk.

 

[upNdown]

When first in, NEVER limp. If you feel you can't raise, you should fold.
3 bet the LAGS endlessly in position to get heads up.
NEVER cold call a raise preflop, ALWAYS 3 bet or fold. I'm guessing this is your biggest leak.

Is the goal here to isolate, or to get more money in the pot when you’re strong? Because in my limited experience, raising doesn’t get people to fold on any street. Though maybe I haven’t done enough of it preflop.

 

[Shaggy]

NEVER cold call a raise preflop, ALWAYS 3 bet or fold. I'm guessing this is your biggest leak.

Is the goal here to isolate, or to get more money in the pot when you’re strong? Because in my limited experience, raising doesn’t get people to fold on any street. Though maybe I haven’t done enough of it preflop.

In the case I quoted above... its to give opponents wrong odds to draw. Remember, to paraphrase David Sklansky... winning poker is about making fewer mistakes than your opponents.

If you simply call a raise, you are potentially giving your opponent the right odds to also call. If your hand isn't strong enough to 3 bet... it isn't strong enough to call. If you do 3 bet... and your opponent cold calls your 3 bet... they just made a very big mistake... and you earned Sklansky bucks (ficticious monetary unity that represents long term money earned... not necessarily realized in the short term.) If they fold, so be it, you now have position on an opponent where you should have a range advantage (because your hand was strong enough to 3 bet in the first place.)

 

[JustinInMN]

If you simply call a raise, you are potentially giving your opponent the right odds to also call. If your hand isn't strong enough to 3 bet... it isn't strong enough to call. If you do 3 bet... and your opponent cold calls your 3 bet... they just made a very big mistake...

There are a couple exceptions to the no-cold calling rule I will make a few exceptions in late position in big pots.
1) Set mining
2) Suited connectors
3) Some broadway hands

In early and mid-you are clearly better off in a 3 bet or pass mode. But in late position, say with a 66-99 type hand in a five way pot, you are never going to thin the field with a 3 bet, but still the hands are too strong a hand to just fold, I think a cold call is fine to go for a set mine.

Similarly, I think a lot of suited connector type hands are fine for cold calling in these situations as well. The trick with these hands is not getting to attached to one pair flops, you really are playing these hoping to flop at least a two-way-straight- or a flush-draw. (And of note, players that play these suited connector hands and get tied to one-pair flops are great targets for value bets, spot these players when they are in your games.)

I think it's also fine to demote a few weaker 3-bet-isolation hands like maybe AQ or AJ to cold-calling hands in this sort of spot where there is little fold equity and your edge isn't huge and will vary widely based on the flop.

But these situations shouldn't come up too often, like maybe once every 3-4 hours tops live (online is faster obviously), so if you do dabble in cold calls, just keep an eye on the frequency because it is a leak if it's too often.

 

[mipevi]

I saw this on reddit and immediately thought of @BonScot

 

[BonScot]

Following on from the advice in this thread... I’ve given up playing limit

Ha ha not quite. I’ve ordered the Ed Miller book from eBay (£2.60 bargain) and I’ve bought Super System 2 to read Jennifer Harman’s chapter.

Thanks for the advice so far

 

[moose]

Is the goal here to isolate, or to get more money in the pot when you’re strong? Because in my limited experience, raising doesn’t get people to fold on any street. Though maybe I haven’t done enough of it preflop.

In limit you have raising hands and you have drawing hands. If you have a drawing hand you shouldn't open a pot by limping in - you want to be calling other limpers when you have the correct pot odds. What happens if you limp a drawing hand and only the BB calls? You just put money in the pot without the correct pot odds to draw. Also you let the BB in for free. What happens if you flop your draw and the BB bets into you? You still aren't getting the right pot odds. So now you have to fold and you wasted a sb which lowers your profit.

To quote Mike Sexton, you can't win a pot by calling unless you have the best hand.

Similarly with cold calling a preflop raise (cc pfr - it's a stat on pokertracker). Never do this. To win, you have to have the best hand at showdown. Are you going to call down every street just to find out? That isn't playing poker, you might as well find an all flipament table where everyone bombs the pot preflop and you run it out to find out who wins. Say you have a hand like AQ and someone raises - if you don't feel like you can 3 bet with that, then you should fold. Just calling and hoping for the best is a leak which will destroy your profitability.

In a 6 max game, you are never ever going to have the correct pot odds to call a raise with a pocket pair hoping to flop a set. You open raise your PP or you 3 bet in position against a raiser but you never call, otherwise you are just pissing money away. In NL it is much different because the implied odds of getting your opponents entire stack can give you the correct odds but in limit that doesn't happen. If you can't 3 bet your PP you should fold. Move on to the next hand when you can be the aggressor.

You might say, well then I should never play a PP because I will never have the odds of hitting a set. But that's not true, you want to be in multi-way pots for a single SB when your odds of winning are low because when you miss the flop you can throw it away having lost a single SB. You want to put in multiple bets when your odds of winning are high - like when you open raise a pot or when you 3 bet a strong PP in position against a raiser. In other words, if you come into a multiway pot with a PP for a single SB, you double your chances of flopping a set because you can do that twice for the same cost of cold calling a preflop raise.

On the flip side, you want a table full of player who cc pfr because that is your profit center. Why let them in for one SB, when you can make them pay a BB? It's the frequent lament of players who don't get limit poker - 'but if I raise they won't fold' - but that's great - that's where you make your money. You just have to understand that your hands won't hold as often in limit but, you don't lose as much as you would in a NL game. You must be willing to throw your hand away when you know you are losing. It's the toughest thing to do in limit because "it's just one more bet".

 

[upNdown]

In limit you have raising hands and you have drawing hands. If you have a drawing hand you shouldn't open a pot by limping in - you want to be calling other limpers when you have the correct pot odds. What happens if you limp a drawing hand and only the BB calls? You just put money in the pot without the correct pot odds to draw. Also you let the BB in for free. What happens if you flop your draw and the BB bets into you? You still aren't getting the right pot odds. So now you have to fold and you wasted a sb which lowers your profit.

To quote Mike Sexton, you can't win a pot by calling unless you have the best hand.

Similarly with cold calling a preflop raise (cc pfr - it's a stat on pokertracker). Never do this. To win, you have to have the best hand at showdown. Are you going to call down every street just to find out? That isn't playing poker, you might as well find an all flipament table where everyone bombs the pot preflop and you run it out to find out who wins. Say you have a hand like AQ and someone raises - if you don't feel like you can 3 bet with that, then you should fold. Just calling and hoping for the best is a leak which will destroy your profitability.

In a 6 max game, you are never ever going to have the correct pot odds to call a raise with a pocket pair hoping to flop a set. You open raise your PP or you 3 bet in position against a raiser but you never call, otherwise you are just pissing money away. In NL it is much different because the implied odds of getting your opponents entire stack can give you the correct odds but in limit that doesn't happen. If you can't 3 bet your PP you should fold. Move on to the next hand when you can be the aggressor.

You might say, well then I should never play a PP because I will never have the odds of hitting a set. But that's not true, you want to be in multi-way pots for a single SB when your odds of winning are low because when you miss the flop you can throw it away having lost a single SB. You want to put in multiple bets when your odds of winning are high - like when you open raise a pot or when you 3 bet a strong PP in position against a raiser. In other words, if you come into a multiway pot with a PP for a single SB, you double your chances of flopping a set because you can do that twice for the same cost of cold calling a preflop raise.

On the flip side, you want a table full of player who cc pfr because that is your profit center. Why let them in for one SB, when you can make them pay a BB? It's the frequent lament of players who don't get limit poker - 'but if I raise they won't fold' - but that's great - that's where you make your money. You just have to understand that your hands won't hold as often in limit but, you don't lose as much as you would in a NL game. You must be willing to throw your hand away when you know you are losing. It's the toughest thing to do in limit because "it's just one more bet".

This is all very interesting. My only exposure to limit holdem is in online HORSE tournaments, and I've noticed that holdem was always my worst game. Which seemed very strange to me. Now I'm begininng to understand I've been playing limit holdem like a chump.

 

[BGinGA]

Trying to learn how to play limit online

Print out, read, and re-read multiple times every single post in this thread by @Shaggy, @JustinInMN, and @moose. Seriously, just do it -- spend a couple of hours just absorbing what they have typed, and then go back to the tables. I suspect your win-rate will at least triple.

 

[BonScot]

Print out, read, and re-read multiple times every single post in this thread by @Shaggy, @JustinInMN, and @moose. Seriously, just do it -- spend a couple of hours just absorbing what they have typed, and then go back to the tables. I suspect your win-rate will at least triple.

I’ve read them a few times today and I’m currently $20 up inside an hour on a .50/1 table. Doubt it’ll stay like this but super tight super aggressive seems to be working

 

[JustinInMN]

I’ve read them a few times today and I’m currently $20 up inside an hour on a .50/1 table. Doubt it’ll stay like this but super tight super aggressive seems to be working

Yay, rake any better?

Also don't play too tight, especially if the game is passive. Part of the profit is playing loose hands cheaply and making big hands. When you make straights and flushes in low limit games, getting multiple payoffs from players that can't fold is huge.

 

[bigdonkey]

Yay, rake any better?

Also don't play too tight, especially if the game is passive. Part of the profit is playing loose hands cheaply and making big hands. When you make straights and flushes in low limit games, getting multiple payoffs from players that can't fold is huge.

Good God , I miss Party circa 2004.

 

[moose]

Good God , I miss Party circa 2004.

In 2004 I started with $25 on Party Poker. At some point in the next 6 months I went busto and put in another $100 and that's the only money I ever put online. I started at 0.05/.10, ran it up to $1k, moved up to .10/.25 and then .25/.50. God I played a LOT of .25/.50. Probably at least a 100k hands. Then I started moving up fairly fast. At my peak before Black Friday hit, I was taking stabs at $50/100 limit and my regular game was 8-12 tables of $5/10 at a time. I was Walk of Fame status on Hollywood Poker (Pokerroom skin) for 3 years straight (approx equivalent to 7* on PokerStars). I was top 10% on pokerstars one year too (but never close to 7*). Then Black Friday hit and at best I could find one table of $5/10 running.

Switched to NL and played a lot of $50 double or nothing sngs on Stars but then there was the collusion cheating scandal - I actually was one of the players who got refunded a bunch of money after the investigation was over. Didn't mind, I was a winning player in those. But that pretty much killed the rest of my interest in online poker. To be at the top of your game you have to grind a lot of hours so you have hand history data on most of the regs and pretty much felt that at any higher stakes than $50nl I was likely running into cheaters or bots. Then Stars basically did everything they could to lower the skill level with the Spin and Gos and other crap that they do now. Bought a lot of chips with my remaining bankroll. Haven't played a single hand online for 3 years.

I know people in the US are starting to play some of the small startups but if Stars and all the money they spend on game security can't keep the cheaters at bay then I feel the likelihood of being cheated by bots or insiders at the small sites has to be very high.


But yeah, a limit game when all the players are high level can be pretty challenging. Watch any of the WSOP limit events. The play is unbelievable.
Or read The Professor, The Banker and the Suicide King. That game was pretty much the high point of limit games in Vegas. Good read of the heyday games with Harmon, Ted Forrest, Brunson, Ivey, Reese and Greenstein.

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B001ACU1Z6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

 

[BonScot]

In 2004 I started with $25 on Party Poker. At some point in the next 6 months I went busto and put in another $100 and that's the only money I ever put online. I started at 0.05/.10, ran it up to $1k, moved up to .10/.25 and then .25/.50. God I played a LOT of .25/.50. Probably at least a 100k hands. Then I started moving up fairly fast. At my peak before Black Friday hit, I was taking stabs at $50/100 limit and my regular game was 8-12 tables of $5/10 at a time. I was Walk of Fame status on Hollywood Poker (Pokerroom skin) for 3 years straight (approx equivalent to 7* on PokerStars). I was top 10% on pokerstars one year too (but never close to 7*). Then Black Friday hit and at best I could find one table of $5/10 running.

Switched to NL and played a lot of $50 double or nothing sngs on Stars but then there was the collusion cheating scandal - I actually was one of the players who got refunded a bunch of money after the investigation was over. Didn't mind, I was a winning player in those. But that pretty much killed the rest of my interest in online poker. To be at the top of your game you have to grind a lot of hours so you have hand history data on most of the regs and pretty much felt that at any higher stakes than $50nl I was likely running into cheaters or bots. Then Stars basically did everything they could to lower the skill level with the Spin and Gos and other crap that they do now. Bought a lot of chips with my remaining bankroll. Haven't played a single hand online for 3 years.

I know people in the US are starting to play some of the small startups but if Stars and all the money they spend on game security can't keep the cheaters at bay then I feel the likelihood of being cheated by bots or insiders at the small sites has to be very high.


But yeah, a limit game when all the players are high level can be pretty challenging. Watch any of the WSOP limit events. The play is unbelievable.
Or read The Professor, The Banker and the Suicide King. That game was pretty much the high point of limit games in Vegas. Good read of the heyday games with Harmon, Ted Forrest, Brunson, Ivey, Reese and Greenstein.

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B001ACU1Z6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Just ordered that book. Looks like it’ll be a good read. Thanks for the recommendation.