Limit hold'em 8/16 (2 Viewers)

[JustinInMN]

8/16 limit with a half kill.

Hero is UTG+2, with the leg-up (won last pot)

Villian 1 is UTG with about 60 left, aggressive and a bit steamy. villian 2 is in the hijack, rather loose passive, villian 3 is on the button, faily passive as well.

Villian 1 raises to two bets, folds to hero with hero calls*

(*I know I could stop here for a discussion on the preflop play, but no one ever posts a thread on a hand they fold pre. Please feel free to leave your comments. Hero's logic is this, utg is steamy and has opened for a raise the last couple times under the gun. Reraising to isolate utg reduces the chance of winning a big pot since he will be all in soon. Call seemed the best course of action.)

Villian 2 calls from the hijack, button calls, small blind calls, villian 3 calls from the big blind.

Flop is

Small blind, big blind, and villian 1 check. Hero?

 

[JoeBGo]

I don’t know if I’m one to give advice here...the only time I played 8/16 was at Hawaiian Gardens and I lost $800. It was one of the roughest sessions I’ve even played.

But that being said...I think you bet here.

 

[joepro]

Fold. Lol, I mean check. A straight is useless if the flush hits, I would prefer to control the pot than get aggressive right now. Also, your player description is a little confusing because you are using both "villain x" as well as the seat locations.

 

[FDLmold]

You WANT the free card. Check and hope you get it.

 

[DrStrange]

I can't let the preflop pass. KJs is a sucker hand in limit poker. More so out of position. More so in a raised pot. Limit hold'em is much more "solved" than NL holdem. There are a number of resources with starting hand lists for limit poker. I encourage people to use them more often than not. Really. The math is compelling. < disclaimer regarding tables with terrible players allowing wider opening hand ranges. But at a $8/$16 there will also be a share of grinders making ~$30/hr <they hope>>

I would play KJs in late position as a stealing hand, but not here. As played . . . .

Hero is at the typical six player see the flop limit table. There are 12 small bets in the pot, less the rake. So the question I pose to Hero is why are you wanting to bet? Few hands with equity vs Hero are folding for a small bet. Sure there will be some folds, but the redistributed equity likely doesn't mean much. Does Hero think he gets more than his fair share of equity in the new money going into the pot - say like a nut flush draw might hope to gain?

I don't see much value in betting here. In a big bet game where a 60% pot bet might clear out a lot of hands. Not so much clearage betting 1/12th pot.

Hero also will be unhappy if there is a raise from a later hand or a check raise. Hero is drawing and doing so to an inferior draw - flushes and worse are also plauibly drawing.

I check / call. If the table goes nuts, I consider folding - not paying $32 to draw at a six out draw and then fading the redraw(s).

 

[RainmanTrail]

I think the pre flop call is borderline here particularly if you're in a pretty tough game (in which case, just leave lol). You can fold it if you're playing $8/16 online in a game where there usually aren't more than 2 or 3 players seeing the flop, but in a live game with splashy opponents where 4+ players often see the flop, I'm usually not folding any 2 suited broadway hands pre flop, even in early position. However, this is a kill game, and the most important aspect of this hand believe it or not, is the fact that you have the leg right now. If you win this pot, you'll be forced to post a blind UTG the next hand. So you'll need to have enough expected value here to overcome the negative EV you'll have to post next hand. In this spot, there aren't many hands with that much EV (pretty much only premium hands will. Even AJo is a fold, and AQo is probably borderline).

If it weren't a kill game though, or even if you just didn't have the leg, I'd be OK with the call here pre flop. I wouldn't 3 bet it though. Having the leg is a strong enough pressure toward making it a fold though.

As played, calling or betting are both OK options. I'd lean toward betting the flop if my opponents were passive, and toward checking it if they're aggro. The good thing about LHE though, is you won't get stacked if you hit the straight and someone else hits the flush, or if you hit top pair and get outkicked. I like hands like KJs in LHE in general, I just don't like that you have the leg though.

I don't recall my exact BB/100 expectations for KJs, but I do know that I was +EV for any two suited broadway cards from every non blind position in my LHE database which has over 2 million hands played in it. But that doesn't mean I played them every time. Although I usually did. But this spot is a fold for me pre flop. Having to post a blind UTG is just too great a tax if you win.

 

[moose]

I'm folding kj in EP to a raise to but as played your logic is contradictory and flawed.

Villian is tilty and raising wide so you want to play him but you only call because you want to win a big pot - so you don't actually want to play him but rather all the others yet to come in behind you, but you are in EP so you don't even know how big the pot will be. WTF?

You figure to be ahead of the villian but don't 3 bet to drive out all the hands behind you that might play to just 2 bets like kq or aq but have you crushed or even small pairs that you can't beat if you don't hit. Preflop it all makes no sense at all.

On the flop you have only a draw, are oop and have no control on the hand. You have only six clean outs. Ugh.

 

[RainmanTrail]

KJs is a sucker hand in limit poker.

I would strongly challenge this statement in general, although I agree with a fold in this particular hand. I've certainly made a lot of money playing KJs over the years in LHE. If you aren't making these kinds of hands work for you, you've got some leaks post flop that could be addressed.

 

[JustinInMN]

Keep the comments comments coming, and I do appreciate the pf discussion, because hero did consider this a very close spot and I think a lot of factors have been identified.

I will hope to continue the story in about 3 hours.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Not much to say that hasn't been said. No reason to bet. Check and hope to get a good free card. The real problem comes when the turn is the or

 

[Gobbs]

Borderline call pre-flop, but I would lean towards fold. Can’t fault the call, though. You’re hoping to hit the flop somewhat hard, though, or folding/checking on the flop.

Definitely try to see a free card post-flop and check. If I read right, there are still two to act and you don’t want to see a re-raise (or a raise). If both behind you check, perfect. If one of them bets and you are ending action (or likely to not see a two-bet), you can afford to call if one of the remaining villains bets.

 

[JustinInMN]

Thank you for all the replies so far, I am going to respond to a few of the comments and then on with the story.

Fold. Lol, I mean check. A straight is useless if the flush hits, I would prefer to control the pot than get aggressive right now. Also, your player description is a little confusing because you are using both "villain x" as well as the seat locations.

I do apologize for this, I see now that I was really unclear about the positions the way I wrote the OP, but we're way past the point of editing my way out of this. I kind of identified the villians based on who the main principles are, but hero only had a read on of the few of players involved. And UTG was the only "short stack" otherwise stacks are generally irrelavant in limit.

I should also point out that cash games are played 9-handed in this club, not 10. So I am not sure if that's the norm or not. This does cause me to think of UTG and UTG + 1 as "early position", UTG + 2 and the LoJack as "middle position" and the hijack, cutoff, and button as late position.

If it weren't a kill game though, or even if you just didn't have the leg, I'd be OK with the call here pre flop. I wouldn't 3 bet it though. Having the leg is a strong enough pressure toward making it a fold though.

I was hoping someone would catch on to why this is important, well done. Hero did consider this, but ultimately decided that UTG probably being so wide, this is still worth the call. Against a villian that is only raising 10-15% UTG, I agree this is a fold.

I'm folding kj in EP to a raise to but as played your logic is contradictory and flawed.

Villian is tilty and raising wide so you want to play him but you only call because you want to win a big pot - so you don't actually want to play him but rather all the others yet to come in behind you, but you are in EP so you don't even know how big the pot will be. WTF?

Let me see if I can explain the reasoning better. If hero goes 3 bets here, he can only really expect action from a pretty nitty range of hands, say AK, and TT+. If hero flats, he can expect action from something more like 55+, AT+, A8s+, KTs+, QJs-76s. So the raise knocks out the wrong kind of hands to build a pot. By flatting a few hands that are marginally better get in (the KQ and AQ you mention in the later post, for examples), but far more hands that are worse or at least netural to the plan of flopping big come in as well.

KJs is a sucker hand in limit poker. More so out of position. More so in a raised pot.

I would strongly challenge this statement in general, although I agree with a fold in this particular hand. I've certainly made a lot of money playing KJs over the years in LHE. If you aren't making these kinds of hands work for you, you've got some leaks post flop that could be addressed.

I agree with Rainman on this one, in limit you aren't going to get stacked over a bad kicker. The key is learning how to get away from the right flops when you make middle pair or even sometimes top pair against heavy action.

Okay on with the story.

I appreciate both sides of this decision, and I do think it was close, but @Gobbs has hit on the deciding factor.

Definitely try to see a free card post-flop and check. If I read right, there are still two to act and you don’t want to see a re-raise (or a raise).

Hero checks and the the remaining two players check as well.

So the 12 small bets are now 6 big bets heading to the turn. (Since the rake was mentioned, it's 5% up to $4 to the reg drop and $2 on a $15 pot to the promo drop, this hand will be the max of $6)

Turn:

Small Blind Checks, Big Blind Bets, UTG Folds (Really how wide is UTG that he doesn't even have a piece of this?), Hero?

 

[Gobbs]

Say, “Whose turn is it and how much can I bet?” Then re-raise.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I was hoping someone would catch on to why this is important, well done. Hero did consider this, but ultimately decided that UTG probably being so wide, this is still worth the call. Against a villian that is only raising 10-15% UTG, I agree this is a fold.

It's by far the most important aspect of this hand with respect to your overall win rate. It's a huge tax.

 

[FDLmold]

Raise. I don't think that quite prices out the flush draws, but it's close. If you just call, flush draws are easily getting the right price. I think sets are getting the right price too if you don't raise.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Small Blind Checks, Big Blind Bets, UTG Folds (Really how wide is UTG that he doesn't even have a piece of this?), Hero?

I don't see any reason to slow play here. Just raise.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Yeah not sure there is even a question. Raise. You have the nuts but there are lots of draws that you hate.

 

[JustinInMN]

Well not a lot of contraversy on this point, but yes, hero is with the crowd and made the raise as we continue...

Hero raises, the hijack folds, the button calls, the small blind folds and the big blind calls.

Now 12 big bets (maybe closer to 11.5 big bets after the drops and prospective tip) in the pot with hero acting second of the 3 players left.

River
Big blind checks, hero?

 

[RowdyRawhide]

I think I'm betting here. But can also see just checking too.

 

[FDLmold]

I think I'm betting here. But can also see just checking too.

Same. But my limit poker skills are too limited to give advice which is better. The big question is if we are best, who's calling a bet? 78?

 

[BGinGA]

J8, 87, two pair, trips, some Qs w/good kicker (plus crappy flushes). Typically only big flushes check-raise.

Bet.

 

[RainmanTrail]

It's not a difficult spot. Just bet again. Checking here is beyond terrible. Never fear a runner-runner flush in LHE until someone convinces you that they have it. And even then, you usually want to pay them off with a hand this strong unless it's maybe it's OMC and you know he never raises without it. Bet this river 100% of the time though. Anything else is a major leak.

By now, I'm assuming you bet and get raised by someone who makes a runner-runner flush on you. Otherwise, I don't see why you would post this hand. It's a pretty straight forward hand. Not much going on here to learn from...

 

[Legend5555]

It would be a disaster if you don't bet this river. I don't play a ton of limit, but enough to know that in lower level games if I have any sort of value hand I just keep my foot on the gas until someone gives me a reason not to. Plus, winning an extra bet will help offset having the kill next hand.

A lot of players in lower level limit games just about never bluff raise the river (or turn for that matter). I'd still call the vast majority of the time if I got raised here on the river though unless I knew the player's tendencies really well.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Same. But my limit poker skills are too limited to give advice which is better. The big question is if we are best, who's calling a bet? 78?

I think this is the right question to focus on. What hands could they have where they are going to call you if you bet that don't also have you beat?

Would they have played along with 78 if it wasn't ? Seems like most players are not riding this hand after the flop unless they have the gutter draw and the flush draw. So I am not worried about .

Same logic with .They could have easily stayed with this hand till the end but are not calling with just a pair of 9s.

Now there are some hands they could hold that would seem to play how its gone so far that have you beat. . , or . Those hands are going to raise if you bet.

Now that seems to leave three other hands. Pocket Qs, 10s, or 6s. Those hands seem to me to be the only hands that are calling a river bet that don't have you beat.

So I can see some logic to betting and some logic to check/calling and I would lean toward the check calling.

 

[JustinInMN]

Never fear a runner-runner flush in LHE until someone convinces you that they have it.

Would they have played along with 78 if it wasn't ? Seems like most players are not riding this hand after the flop unless they have the gutter draw and the flush draw. So I am not worried about .

I do feel it's important to offer a reminder of the flop action. No one bet, everyone got to the turn for free. I will continue the story in a couple more hours.

 

[shorticus]

Would they have played along with 78 if it wasn't ? Seems like most players are not riding this hand after the flop unless they have the gutter draw and the flush draw. So I am not worried about .

If I understand the way this hand played out, should be a hand you are worried about simply because he got to see a free card after the flop as there were no bets, and he then turned the straight, with a possibility of strengthening to a flush on the river. Once the turn card hit, he was in until the end. I'm not a pro by any means, but 8/7 should be a hand that should be considered at this point.

 

[Legend5555]

BB could have a lot of different stuff that we still beat on the river.

Button is a bit more interesting since he called 2 bets on turn. Though he was getting 4.5 to 1 on the call so he could have T9, either flush draw, J9. Again player dependent, but I'm assuming a generally more passive player base here. I don't want to check because I think we can still get called by BB and there are def some hands that might just get sticky here.

I really don't like check calling strong hands that can get called by worse. Especially against players who are face up when they raise in the river.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Ok wasn't looking back to see the flop was checked around. For sure that puts into question. But all that adds is another hand that has you beat and actually makes check/calling even more of an option IMO.

 

[Legend5555]

Ok wasn't looking back to see the flop was checked around. For sure that puts into question. But all that adds is another hand that has you beat and actually makes check/calling even more of an option IMO.

But it also means the 3 other combos of 78 suited exist if we are assuming 78 doesn't 3 bet the turn.

 

[shorticus]

What about in this spot? It's actually terrible luck for the hero, but this is a hand that he could be going up against. I would never expect someone to stay in for a runner runner flush draw, but this hand is entirely possible for the same reasons that we say is a hand that we should consider. The only reason we may want to consider that this is not a hand that BB and dealer are holding is both the button and big blind calls. There's no way you have that hand and you call after a raise.