Lending money at home games (1 Viewer)

[Taghkanic]

As the current host of a game which has run for about a decade at multiple venues, I’ve never before had players ask to be advanced money to play in either the tournament or our cash game afterwards... until very recently.

So I thought I’d raise the question of how people handle this in their own games. (I didn't find an existing thread on this topic, but if there is one, please let me know.)

I’ll leave that as an intro, but add further notes below...

 

[Taghkanic]

In all of these recent cases, I said no—despite having a ton of trust in each of these guys—because for years it has been my personal policy not to lend friends money since getting burned a couple times in my youth. Even when the person does pay you back, you run the risk of creating a tension in the friendship. Refusing also can do that, but I explain that it is not personal, I just never lend money. And people generally understand that.

Each of the people seeking buy-ins was able to get someone else in the game to front them, or else they drove to the nearest ATM (about 10 minutes away) and came back. So it wasn’t such a big deal, at least not yet.

Either our economy is tanking, and a half-dozen of my regs are having money problems (unlikely), or people are just getting too comfortable and not making sure to hit the bank/ATM in advance. (I would never go to someone else’s game without what I was prepared to lose in my pocket.)

 

[Taghkanic]

... Side note: A couple of hosts back, there did arise a situation where people were borrowing a lot of money from each other in the cash game, which sometimes would go until dawn.

This hurt the game a bit, both the tourney and the cash game, because a few of players’ debts got high enough that they didn’t want to come back until they could repay. So basically, the ranks of the group suffered for a while because people were not playing within their means. (One guy was having real business issues, as it turned out, and did not return.)

I have no interest in keeping a “sheet,” though I know this is done at many games. I’m interested both how you handle the etiquette of declining, or cutting someone off, and whether loans have caused any problems in your groups.

 

[ChipEnvy]

I guess it depends if you want to act as the bank like that. Sounds like you'll need to have extra money on hand to cash everyone out.

Also would recommend keeping it like a business. Get signed documentation with date, time and signature with a paid receipt when it's paid back (especially if there's booze involved).

 

[Taghkanic]

I have declined all requests so far, not wishing to do this as host... But per above people were able to either borrow from another player, or go out and get money from an ATM about 10 minutes away. Still, I am curious about how others deal with this. I know of at least one game (which I avoid) where the host is lending money at interest, which definitely is not going to happen at my place.

 

[Taghkanic]

(I’ve also put out a gentle reminder to the group to be sure to arrive with what they need for the night.)

 

[Justin Olson]

No Markers. Have seen multiple hosts get burned by either losing a player too deep in debt to come back or just not paying back a single $100 marker and not returning. I would have no problem with one non host player loaning to another player cash that is off the table.

 

[WedgeRock]

I always take what I am comfortable losing, as do most others in the games I play in.

If someone has a bad run of cards and has run through their cash early, an offer (or sometimes multiple offers) are made by those that still have a comfortable roll with them. This generally goes on the books between players and to my knowledge, is paid back at the end of the session if cards pick up, or the next session. I have no knowledge of it becoming an issue.

I've offered several times and been taken up on it at least once. If I didn't have the roll with me and was asked, I'd just say I didn't have the funds with me. The people I've extended to are regulars and friends who I know I will see again.

I don't think it's a bad idea to make it a personal policy for you. If it's because people just aren't bringing enough with them, having to go to the ATM might remind them next time to stop in advance.

 

[Coyote]

Saying no might cause light embarrassment once.
Saying yes might cause severe repetitive embarrassment and is more likely to eventually ruin a friendship.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I host an (almost) weekly cash game. It can get pretty deep some weeks, as such it is not uncommon for someone to be down more than $1k and then ask to borrow from me.

Most of the time I don’t have a problem with it. It is usually the same few people and they either pay it back when the game is over if they won or send it to me by PayPal when the game is over or the next day if they’ve taken a rough beat and left ina hurry.

Some players I won’t let borrow money because I know they already owe someone else. I pretty much expect players to bring at least 2 buy-ins in cash before asking to borrow. Of course there have been exceptions to every rule.

I have never been burned and don’t think I will. I know the players in my game well.

I would never loan more money than cash I have on hand either. I would never let the bank be short cash at the end of the night. I don’t want my players to ever have to worry about there being enough cash to cover the chips in play.

 

[Taghkanic]

All makes sense, Rhodeman... My concern is less about the regulars in my game, who I assume would arrange to meet and pay me back the next day. And I do know where they all live. ;^)

My bigger concerns are (a) creating a precedent which opens the floodgates to multiple players getting lazy, and making regular requests, so that I wind up either having to pick-and-choose or fronting a ton of money every time; (C) the slight chance that someone doesn’t pay back promptly, creating awkwardness; and (c) the even more remote chance that someone is having financial trouble the rest of us somehow don’t know about—which did happen one time, per above, when this game was hosted by someone else.

(B) and (C) are very unlikely due to the nature of the group, so in theory I shouldn't worry. But then, we’ve all seen someone hit a one-outer on the river...

 

[mike32]

I have lent money to friends lots of times in our group. Everyone has always paid me back no problem. It is never more than $200 so not a big loan, if someone needed more than that I think I’d advise them to call it a night. Our game is not as deep as many others.

 

[Taghkanic]

It is never more than $200 so not a big loan, if someone needed more than that I think I’d advise them to call it a night.

Someone gave me the advice a long time ago never to loan anyone money you’re not prepared to lose.

A friend in some trouble once asked me to loan him $250; I just gave it to him, and told him not to worry about paying me back. It was better to just give it to him directly than waiting to see if he would make good. (He did soon thereafter go bankrupt.)

 

[Rhodeman77]

@Taghkanic you could set up some rules by which you are willing to lend money. For instance require players to bring at least 2 buy-ins of their own money to be able to borrow. Only lend one buy-in.

Make it clear ahead of time that you only have X amount of money that can be borrowed in general so that they all know there might not even be money to borrow. That it is more of a last resort than something to count on always being available.

I never lend to new players. Even existing well established players make sure the repayment plan is set up before hand. And if a player is too drunk/tilting say no. It is better for you and them.

 

[Nex]

I would never lend people money to gamble with in general. The risk is too big (particularly as you don't charge interest like the banks do!), and it does worsen the relationship no matter how it ends. If they want a credit, they should walk up to a real bank, which has no personal relationship with them and also can much better assess if the risk is worth the reward in their case. As the host/bank in a game, I would also never hand out cash chips that are not backed by real money in the cash box. Every chip in play must be possible to cash out at any point during the game. Knowing this creates a secure atmosphere for the players.

If someone else at the table is willing to lend them money, I'd start with allowing it to happen - albeit communicating clearly that it's 100% their own risk, and openly telling both parties the risk I see with it.

If something ever happens afterwards like was described - people not coming back before they can repay their debt, or indebted people not returning at all - I'd tighten up the rules and either bar individual players from getting money lent, or disallow it completely. (Of course people can always circumvent this by doing it when I'm not watching, but well. The last resort is always to not invite players back.)

Basically, I'd openly communicate my thoughts about it up front as well as the actions I will take if it starts to cause issues. I'd tolerate it as long as it doesn't. Maximized freedom for the players, minimized hosting risk.

 

[upNdown]

As a host, I've never been asked, and would never do it if asked.
As a friend, yeah if I have the cash on me, I have no problem loaning it to a trusted friend. But now that I think about it, I don't think that's happened either. I play .25/.50 - that probably explains it.

 

[Quad Johnson]

We only play 25c/50c too. I've lent money to a close friend who promptly paid me back the next day but as a general rule, no. Even at these stakes. I'm not a banker nor have desire to be one. Especially with gambling. I've seen a couple of close friends over the years I considered intelligent and rational people fall sick to the addiction of gambling and do things I would've never pegged anyone, other than an addict, to do.

 

[detroitdad]

I always take what I am comfortable losing, as do most others in the games I play in.

If someone has a bad run of cards and has run through their cash early, an offer (or sometimes multiple offers) are made by those that still have a comfortable roll with them. This generally goes on the books between players and to my knowledge, is paid back at the end of the session if cards pick up, or the next session. I have no knowledge of it becoming an issue.

I've offered several times and been taken up on it at least once. If I didn't have the roll with me and was asked, I'd just say I didn't have the funds with me. The people I've extended to are regulars and friends who I know I will see again.

I don't think it's a bad idea to make it a personal policy for you. If it's because people just aren't bringing enough with them, having to go to the ATM might remind them next time to stop in advance.

I have lent money to friends lots of times in our group. Everyone has always paid me back no problem. It is never more than $200 so not a big loan, if someone needed more than that I think I’d advise them to call it a night. Our game is not as deep as many others.

What these two said. If your a regular/ friend I have no problem with it. if you're not, I have no problem saying no.

 

[Taghkanic]

I’m trying to think of any other creative solutions that would provide me more flexibility as a host.

For example, if everyone at the table threw in $20 so a player could buy back in to a 1/2 game, then the risk is distributed... And you could make it where if the player doubles up he has to instantly refund everyone. Except that I don’t normally like moving chips among live stacks that way.

 

[WedgeRock]

For example, if everyone at the table threw in $20 so a player could buy back in to a 1/2 game, then the risk is distributed...

That makes repayment a pain in the ass.

If you're not comfortable taking the risk, don't.

And you could make it where if the player doubles up he has to instantly refund everyone.

That's going south... I don't like that.

 

[Nex]

I’m trying to think of any other creative solutions that would provide me more flexibility as a host.

For example, if everyone at the table threw in $20 so a player could buy back in to a 1/2 game, then the risk is distributed... And you could make it where if the player doubles up he has to instantly refund everyone. Except that I don’t normally like moving chips among live stacks that way.

This is something I would avoid even more.
No ratholing is a rule for good reason. If you wanted to introduce such a instant payback rule, you'd have to force the guy to cash out and leave at the same time.

Distributing the risk also means more people get pissed off if the guy runs off - even if each loses a smaller amount, you'll have more disgruntled players.

 

[Dodger]

As the host/bank in a game, I would also never hand out cash chips that are not backed by real money in the cash box.

Well said.

Furthermore, there are too many unknown variables with allowing the lending of money. Keep it simple - need cash to play. No one can fault you for that.

 

[Taghkanic]

Yeah, I didn’t think it was a particularly good idea, but again wonder if people have any alternatives to Yes, No, or Maybe-If-I-Trust-You-and-You’re-Not-Already-Stuck-for-a-Whole-Mortgage-Payment!

 

[DrStrange]

I run into this frequently in games I host. Different games have different rules. Keep in mind that I am in the middle of no where. Going to an ATM is a 40 minute to hour round trip.

Many of my games are $20 buy-in games. Every session someone will burn through 5+ buy-ins, occasionally 10+ buy-ins. I have one regular playing on 100% cash or check due to repayment issues ( over $37 dollars - $17 one night and $20 another). Everyone else can borrow however many $20 buy-ins they need from the house. I put my cash in the bank and I am responsible for tracking and collecting.

I also host a much bigger game - $1/$2 with match the biggest stack rebuys if desired. In this game, the regulars can buy-in on credit with the understanding they will write a check to cover the marker at the end of the night. Some of the degenerates have lost significant money in the game. Even me, Mr. Conservative, has been in for a thousand bucks. It is a rare session for no one to be on the books. Most folks don't carry more than $1,000 in cash to the game, often $500 or less even though they know a bad night is going to cost a bunch.

We have already negotiated what happens if someone gets a hot check or someone walks away without paying. The loss gets distributed pro-rata between the winning regulars. Even winners that are already home would be expected to share the risk / cover the losses. New to us players or irregular players don't get credit, will not be asked to take someone's check and will not be asked to cover the losses from a deadbeat.

It is good for the game, even if there is a small risk of loss -=- DrStrange

 

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

The ask of a loan has come up three times for a rebuy in the tournament. We only allow 1 rebuy, so planning ahead is easy. In one case, not sure if they didn’t plan, but due to outside issues, the answer was no. The other two times was the same player, who is a good friend who didn’t hit the ATM on the way. In the first cases she cashed and paid us back immediately. I the second case, she did. It cash and sent the money electronically before she left the house.

With all that in mind, you could require that anyone asking for a front of money immediately send you the payment via an electronic method, thus removing any concern for later payback.

 

[Taghkanic]

Was just typing this reply as Mrs. P.Z. posted... What about using PayPal? All our buy-ins have been in cash for years. But it occurs to me that most of these guys must have a PayPal account, and could transfer money via Friends & Family. Then I could use cash on hand to add that to the box.

 

[Nex]

The ask of a loan has come up three times for a rebuy in the tournament. We only allow 1 rebuy, so planning ahead is easy. In one case, not sure if they didn’t plan, but due to outside issues, the answer was no. The other two times was the same player, who is a good friend who didn’t hit the ATM on the way. In the first cases she cashed and paid us back immediately. I the second case, she did. It cash and sent the money electronically before she left the house.

With all that in mind, you could require that anyone asking for a front of money immediately send you the payment via an electronic method, thus removing any concern for later payback.

I wouldn't consider that a loan however. Just another way of depositing money with the bank.

If I had the extra paper lying around, I wouldn't say no to a player who doesn't have enough cash and sends me the money electronically on the spot (via an irrevokable method that guarantees you the money, e.g. PP F&F) to get fresh chips from the bank.

Still, cash needs to end up in the bank for any chips handed out. You may think you have the money, just in a different form, but what if the guy who sends the money via PP busts and all the other players want to be paid in cash?

 

[Josh Kifer]

I have a white board where if people borrow from the bank, we write it down to settle up the next game. Lucky for me, it's a close group and it's never an issue to settle. But it's never allowed with strangers, just the close friends.

 

[Taghkanic]

Still, cash needs to end up in the bank for any chips handed out. You may think you have the money, just in a different form, but what if the guy who sends the money via PP busts and all the other players want to be paid in cash?

I haven’t done it, but seems that this would only work if you have surplus cash in hand, effectively converting what was deposited in your account to cash in the game’s “bank.”

Another reason why I don’t want to become the bank it is if multiple people are hitting me up, then as host I have to have a huge roll on hand to cover both people who didn’t go to the ATM *and* my own buyins/rebuys.

Then there is the potential downside of creating paper trails for your game... I don’t take a rake, so I’m not really worried about that. But if the money involved were regular enough and large enough, it might be something one should consider. (No?)

 

[Nex]

I haven’t done it, but seems that this would only work if you have surplus cash in hand, effectively converting what was deposited in your account to cash in the game’s “bank.”

Yup, that's exactly what I was saying.

Another reason why I don’t want to become the bank it is if multiple people are hitting me up, then as host I have to have a huge roll on hand to cover both people who didn’t go to the ATM *and* my own buyins/rebuys.

As long as I have enough extra cash to cover it's okay, but it starts being perceived as unfair if people come up with more e-money than you can front in cash. Someone will be left out in the cold. The best thing I believe you can do about it is have clear communication up front with players, saying you do not guarantee that you can honor every e-money buyin/rebuy because you only have a limited amount of extra cash ready. Cash always gets priority and also a guarantee. E-money not. If people don't listen and then still get pissed if they're told sorry nope, 100% their problem.

Then there is the potential downside of creating paper trails for your game... I don’t take a rake, so I’m not really worried about that. But if the money involved were regular enough and large enough, it might be something one should consider. (No?)

Alternative would be to do your notetaking electronically in encrypted form. Pick up a cheapo Android phone dedicated for this cause, turn on hardware encryption and use a strong passphrase to unlock the phone.