Lending money at home games (1 Viewer)

[JustinInMN]

Was just typing this reply as Mrs. P.Z. posted... What about using PayPal? All our buy-ins have been in cash for years. But it occurs to me that most of these guys must have a PayPal account, and could transfer money via Friends & Family. Then I could use cash on hand to add that to the box.

This is the only thing I would offer. As host you are obliged to make sure every chip on the table is covered in cash. Frankly that's enough risk for the host to take. You are already responsible for bank errors (who eats it if you accidentally pick an extra chip?) asking the host for a loans on top of that is over the line imo.

Poor planning on their part is not your problem.

 

[JustinInMN]

If players want to lend to each other at their own risk, that's fine. If you are comfortable lending to certain players in your game do it discreetly.

In a 10 game when I was in college I lent someone a buy in and had to make a ruling involving that player. Player was clearly in the right but the other person wanted to bring up the loan as the reason I ruled for that player.

Hosts lending is not a good look, you should only do it discreetly if at all, imo.

 

[mashoo]

I have all loans covered in cash and written down in my "book" aka The Books. (Probably my next custom set lol). All loans are then e transferred to me at the end of the night. I never pressure guys to play beyond their limits even when they run bad early in the night. I also have a solid idea of everyone's risk tolerance so I can usually tell if they are near their limits for buy ins

 

[Rhodeman77]

As the most consistent and usually the biggest winner in my game it makes sense to loan money as I am more times than not the person that benefits from the extra money on the table.

There have been games that I loan out $1,000 and end up with $800 or more of in my stack by then end of the game. So even if someone went bad on the loan I’m not really out that much money.

So if you are a winning player in your game making loans to players you feel are low risk can be very profitable.

 

[detroitdad]

As the most consistent and usually the biggest winner in my game it makes sense to loan money as I am more times than not the person that benefits from the extra money on the table.

There have been games that I loan out $1,000 and end up with $800 or more of in my stack by then end of the game. So even if someone went bad on the loan I’m not really out that much money.

So if you are a winning player in your game making loans to players you feel are low risk can be very profitable.

I get what your saying. I would feel dirty taking that approach in my game. I probably shouldn't. Everyone is adults, and know what they should be able to afford to lose on a given night. Most of these guys I consider friends. Taking this approach would feel like I was taking advantage of them.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I get what your saying. I would feel dirty taking that approach in my game. I probably shouldn't. Everyone is adults, and know what they should be able to afford to lose on a given night. Most of these guys I consider friends. Taking this approach would feel like I was taking advantage of them.

I too am pretty good friends with most of my players. And when I am having a bad night and drop $1k as has happened on occasion they don’t feel bad!

Also a lot of ATM have a daily limit of $500 so some players aren’t able to get enough money for multiple buy-in out of their bank, especially if they decide to play last minute.

If I hosted a $100 buy-in game and after someone was in for only $200 and wanted to borrow I would think something was up and most likely not lend to them.

At the same time I don’t have a problem lending $500 to a regular that is in the game for $900 of his own money already.

About a month ago a regular was in the game for $1200 of his own money, went broke. Said he was leaving. But sat around for a 1/2 hour then asked if he could borrow $600 from me, I gave it to him. He went on a heater and ran it up to over $3k (including a big pot from me) in less than 2 hours. His horrible night became a damn good one because I was willing to loan him that money.

 

[Taghkanic]

Alternative would be to do your notetaking electronically in encrypted form. Pick up a cheapo Android phone dedicated for this cause, turn on hardware encryption and use a strong passphrase to unlock the phone.

Or... if it were just note keeping, pen and paper.

But I meant more the records of electronic fund transfers. In the U.S., I don’t know of any online banking/money-moving service which doesn’t have to be tethered to a credit card and/or bank account. (Not that I need one, but out of intellectual curiosity/asking for a friend...)

 

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

I wouldn't consider that a loan however. Just another way of depositing money with the bank.

If I had the extra paper lying around, I wouldn't say no to a player who doesn't have enough cash and sends me the money electronically on the spot (via an irrevokable method that guarantees you the money, e.g. PP F&F) to get fresh chips from the bank.

Still, cash needs to end up in the bank for any chips handed out. You may think you have the money, just in a different form, but what if the guy who sends the money via PP busts and all the other players want to be paid in cash?

Agreed. I put the money needed immediately in the poker bank for the night.

 

[Nex]

Or... if it were just note keeping, pen and paper.

But I meant more the records of electronic fund transfers. In the U.S., I don’t know of any online banking/money-moving service which doesn’t have to be tethered to a credit card and/or bank account. (Not that I need one, but out of intellectual curiosity/asking for a friend...)

Fair point, there are transaction logs of the e-payments, but as long as people don't add any revealing notes to them ("my buy-in for the illegal raked poker game!!!11") I believe law enforcement is going to have a very hard time proving what purpose these payments had. At least without access to the cash flow notes you took. And if these are encrypted, they're pretty much stuck at that point unless they resort to illegal methods to make you spit out the passphrase. All provided they even take note of you - what the eye does not see, the heart does not grieve over.

This is of course all just a big "what if". But I prefer being prepared for all eventualities even when the way I host my game is perfectly legal.

 

[MrCatPants]

This is dangerous waters for a lot of reasons. I once provided cash to a player who PayPal sent the funds immediately, and would probably do that again for a regular assuming I had the additional cash on hand. But beyond that, yikes.

 

[kkbait]

In the pool hall I hung out in growing up was a very large sign "your face looks honest but we can't put it in the cash register"

 

[v1pe]

As a host I don't lend money, but I will happily exchange cash from my roll into the bank in exchange for any form of electronic payment... PayPal, Venmo, Google, Zelle, Facebook... There's a myriad of ways to pay without cash. I always just make sure that if chips come out of the box, cash goes in. Essentially I act as an ATM.

 

[navels]

yeah this is what venmo is for

 

[Nex]

yeah this is what venmo is for

Back when I first looked up what Venmo is (it's not available in my country!) I did have to chuckle a bit...

Needless to say, they no longer have that line in the continuously scrolling demo on their website.

 

[Taghkanic]

I believe law enforcement is going to have a very hard time proving what purpose these payments had.

I was thinking more the IRS than law enforcement... (“So, what’s are all these multiple transactions totalling over $10,000 per year going through your account, sir?”)

And though, like you, I’m confident my game is within the law, defending an audit could cost a whole lot more than is in play at my game...

 

[Taghkanic]

Requirements – Venmo [May 11, 2018]

https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/209690188-Requirements

“If you ever want to transfer money from your Venmo balance to your bank account (most users do), you need to add a U.S. bank account. If you want to make payments over your Venmo balance, you'll need to add a U.S. bank account, credit card, or debit card.”

IDGI

 

[JustinInMN]

Requirements – Venmo [May 11, 2018]

https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/209690188-Requirements

“If you ever want to transfer money from your Venmo balance to your bank account (most users do), you need to add a U.S. bank account. If you want to make payments over your Venmo balance, you'll need to add a U.S. bank account, credit card, or debit card.”

IDGI

I would read this as you need a bank account to withdraw received funds but you can use a bank account or credit card to send funds.

But I am not a Venmo user myself, just PayPal, Google Pay, and BTC for me.

 

[Taghkanic]

I would read this as you need a bank account to withdraw received funds but you can use a bank account or credit card to send funds.

But I am not a Venmo user myself, just PayPal, Google Pay, and BTC for me.

They also have a limit of $300 in total transfers per week unless you verify your identity...

 

[CraigT78]

I have no problem spotting a regular in my game. I have cash in hand to do so and 90% of them transfer the money via Paypal or Venmo on the spot. The other 10% I require paid back the next day or you aren't invited back until we are whole.

 

[Trihonda]

In all of these recent cases, I said no—despite having a ton of trust in each of these guys—because for years it has been my personal policy not to lend friends money since getting burned a couple times in my youth. Even when the person does pay you back, you run the risk of creating a tension in the friendship. Refusing also can do that, but I explain that it is not personal, I just never lend money. And people generally understand that.

Each of the people seeking buy-ins was able to get someone else in the game to front them, or else they drove to the nearest ATM (about 10 minutes away) and came back. So it wasn’t such a big deal, at least not yet.

Either our economy is tanking, and a half-dozen of my regs are having money problems (unlikely), or people are just getting too comfortable and not making sure to hit the bank/ATM in advance. (I would never go to someone else’s game without what I was prepared to lose in my pocket.)

Reading THiS post a couple times, you make several pretty clear arguments of why you should never lend money as a host. I just wouldn’t do it. However, I’d happily take a PayPal payment in lieu of cash. I’d use cash on hand to fill the bank.

 

[Taghkanic]

OT nomenclature question: There were references to ratholing and going south above... While agreeing that the bad idea I floated was bad, don’t these terms refer to taking money off the table, not redistributing chips already on the table (potentially also a problem, but a different problem)?

 

[JustinInMN]

OT nomenclature question: There were references to ratholing and going south above... While agreeing that the bad idea I floated was bad, don’t these terms refer to taking money off the table, not redistributing chips already on the table (potentially also a problem, but a different problem)?

It's still effectively selling/giving chips to another player. (Think Worm and Mike in the Taj scene in"Rounders".)

I would agree that may be less of a problem than rat-holing, but it's still undesirable.

 

[Quad Johnson]

The closest this occurs in my game is sometimes when someone loses a massive pot and doesn't have money to rebuy, one of my guys will cut $2-$5 from his stack and toss it to the loser.

This usually starts a rally from others to toss a couple few bucks in. Next thing, he's up to $25 or 50 BBs. I have no issue with this at all. We're all friends and it's a nice gesture since it's usually my biggest fish that go bust. Many of my players recognize them for being the action players and don't mind the donation. It's never asked nor pressured, purely voluntary.

That money is 9 times out of 10 going right back to the table. So even my solid players don't mind a 4-6 BB donation knowing if they get in a hand with him, they're likely getting 50 BBs back.

It's a win/win for all involved.

 

[Rhodeman77]

OT nomenclature question: There were references to ratholing and going south above... While agreeing that the bad idea I floated was bad, don’t these terms refer to taking money off the table, not redistributing chips already on the table (potentially also a problem, but a different problem)?

Think about it this way, if the guy that borrowed the money is a bad player or on tilt, I want all of that money in his stack. That way if I get in a pot with him I can win all of the money, not just some of it.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

As a banker, I have one simple rule - no cash, no chips. I never short the bank intentionally or keep a book.

As a player, I am usually willing to loan cash to the players in my games. Some of these guys are my friends outside of poker, others I have played with for years, and the stakes are low enough that loaning someone a buy-in is generally no big deal.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Our game has had quite a bit of lending, mostly to the same two players. One of them has quit coming and owes several hundred dollars. Probably will pay eventually. I don’t loan unless to a very close friend. It doesn’t happen often. Our cash games can get pretty big sometimes.

 

[Jeff]

Invoke the Polonius rule.

Neither a borrower nor a lender be.

 

[Taghkanic]

I might have bent my personal rule against lending had it been a one-off, rare request from one of the trusted regulars, in isolation from other requests... But getting multiple asks disinclined me to make any exceptions. Had I granted them all, it would have left me playing without much cushion in the cash game, because I don’t like to keep more than about $1K around.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I don't lend the money myself, but as a Seeking Alpha Social Club Member, you can go on "the plate."

Basically all the Seeking Alpha members have agreed to let any other member "borrow" money, and we document it on a paper plate. At the end of the night, borrowers either pay the plate back, or they owe one of the big winners whatever they couldn't pay back. There are a few things that have made this work (since 2009).

1. We are VERY selective about who becomes a member, so trust is very high.

2. Non SASC members are not allowed to go on the plate unless a member vouches for them (making them reaponsible for the debt).

3. We are all good friends and neighbors.

4. People can opt out being owed if they absolutely have to (or want to) get paid, but will also never be allowed to go on the plate.

5. The house (me) NEVER lends money. I live in VA where the gambling laws are VERY stict. I cash out last, so if I'm up for the night, I will be owed. But I do not and will not guarantee payment.

We have never had an issue since 2009.

 

[Neirro]

I would lend money to good friends of mine that I know and trust... That being said if someone forgot their money I would make them drive to the nearest ATM,VENMO,Chase quickpay whatever it takes. Nowadays it is very easy to send/get money quickly... No excuse for not bringing money....

I wouldn't want players coming to my games that were very low on cash hoping to win it big.