League Tournament - how to play KK (1 Viewer)

[p5woody]

I am playing in 30-person monthly league. We are playing in our yearend event, players stacks are based on the points earned during the year. So we have 3 tables, at my table starting stack sizes ranged from 20,000 to 9000 and I started with 17,000. I have the 3rd largest stack at the table. Blinds start at 50/100 with the following payout structure: Places 10-5 each get $100 , 4th-$300 , 3rd -$500 , 2nd -$800 , 1st -$1600

We are early into the tournament - blinds are at 100/200, I am the dealer and the two larger stacks are to my left in the blinds (we are seated by points). So far the 3 big stacks at the table haven't played too many hands so our starting stacks haven't changed much. One of the smaller stacks (Mr. Crazy), has been playing very aggressive and winning hands, this is nothing new he will flame out and double up somebody soon. I think most consider me a tight player that plays premium hands but can be pushed around by aggressive players especially early in tournaments.

So here is the hand: Again I am the dealer, Mr. Crazy limps (so this means any two random cards). player2 with medium stack limps (thinking medium strength/drawing hand) and now the action is on me and I look down at KK. My standard raise early in the tournament is 3xBB, so 600 it is (I think this is the first pre-flop raise for me). My hope is to isolate Mr. Crazy, thinking the blinds will fold all but premium hands, Mr. Crazy will call and player2 will probably fold as well. (Thoughts on pre-flop raise?)

However, small blind folds and the big stack raises it to 1800. This might be his first raise of the night. the other two limpers fold. So it is 1200 for me to call - action?

 

[skylines]

4 bet to 4500 or so. Since the big stack is presumably from playing well all season I am going to assume his range is wider the AA here even though he hasn't raised yet. Also could be going for a squeeze. If he 5 bet/shoves maybe a tough spot. Early in the tourney I don't think he'd shove with QQ or AK so I'd lean towards a fold if he shoves. Otherwise I'm probably going with it all the way and will call it an early night if slowplays AA.

 

[Mike mac]

you go all in..... and win.... you prob win the tourny with that stack size..... you can only fear one hand ..... i dont play tourny.... that said, i would make him make a decision on his tourny life on AQ- AK - QQ -jj i would not let him see a flop by just calling my 4 bet and hitting a set..... thats just my 2 cents.... im curious to find out what he had?!?!?!

 

[DrStrange]

Jamming will let villain play his hand close to perfectly. He isn't folding AA or KK but he is folding AK & JJ. Hero wins 2,000 or is a huge dog in a 36,000 chip pot.

I think this could be a fine time to slow play. Hero has position. The SPR is something like four. Let's see if Hero can get the villain's stack on any non-ace flop.

 

[BGinGA]

I 4-bet to 4k, and fold to a shove. Unless you never-ever 4-bet, you need to include KK in your 4-betting range -- otherwise you're playing you hand face-up if you only do it with AA.

I'm okay with taking it down now, or building a larger pot with a premium hand in position.

 

[Legend5555]

You should be adjusting your raise size based on the limpers. Extra BB or so per limper. Even more if raising first from the blinds.

As played, we have around what I assume is 80bb. I could go either way with slow playing in pos or 4 betting. I like slowplaying a little more since it won't be overly difficult to get all the money in post flop in a 3bet pot at this stack size in position if we want to do that.

If we were shallower, I'd like 4 betting to try and get it in now or on the flop. If we were deeper, I'd like 4 betting to get more money in while we likely have the best hand. Plus that way you take control and can play pot control post flop.

 

[Pinball]

First of all 3x BB limp is only good when no one limps, add one BB per limper.

I would 4 bet to 5000, if he goes all in -> call (not a great feeling) , if he calls it depends on the flop

 

[Mike mac]

ya... if he calls hope for 4,8,2 flop!

 

[p5woody]

You should be adjusting your raise size based on the limpers. Extra BB or so per limper. Even more if raising first from the blinds.

First of all 3x BB limp is only good when no one limps, add one BB per limper.

Good points pre-flop, this thought crossed my mind, but I wanted to keep Mr. Crazy in the hand and if the blinds or player2 also stays in the hand, that is okay but not excited about it. If flop is favorable like no ace, no flush, etc. , my kings are probably still good. My real focus was trying to get Mr. Crazy's chips. If I go any higher I think he folds his two random cards, I think it would have worked if the BB folds.

 

[Pinball]

Good points pre-flop, this thought crossed my mind, but I wanted to keep Mr. Crazy in the hand and if the blinds or player2 also stays in the hand, that is okay but not excited about it. If flop is favorable like no ace, no flush, etc. , my kings are probably still good. My real focus was trying to get Mr. Crazy's chips. If I go any higher I think he folds his two random cards, I think it would have worked if the BB folds.

In generall like the idea of isolating bad players but vs ATC player you will not be able to judge the flop because he could have everything... Good for isolating players are those Ax players who will shove top pair with A kicker...

 

[p5woody]

In generall like the idea of isolating bad players but vs ATC player you will not be able to judge the flop because he could have everything... Good for isolating players are those Ax players who will shove top pair with A kicker...

Yea, I am assuming if I do isolate, he will have a hand like 10,8. The flop would be Q,8,5 and Mr. Crazy bets out 4000, I shove, he calls and the river is an 8. Been there done that

 

[p5woody]

I don't want to drag this out too long, the bigger decision for me was after the flop. Looks like the majority prefer a 4-bet, I seriously thought about raising but I am a cautious player and don't like to get too crazy early in tournaments. I decided to just call and see what the flop brings since I will be in position the rest of the way. Hoping not to see an Ace on the flop.

The flop comes out 10,5,2 rainbow, I'm thinking looks good then the BB quickly bets out 3000. What do you do now?
So we have 7000 (200 + 200 + 1800 + 1800 + 3000) in the pot, If I call the pot will be 10,000

 

[DrStrange]

Hero shouldn't fold. He is slow playing and trapping. Hero is pot committed, the question remains whether to keep slow playing or become aggressive.

I think a second round of slow play is best. Villain has ~12,000 { effective } vs a 10,000 pot. He can still find a fold with a hand like AK or even an over-pair like JJ. I vote float one more round. Hero should be jamming or calling all-in on the turn.

If villain holds AA or hits a two-outer for a set, so be it -=- DrStrange

 

[Bmeister51]

This for me is a pretty straightforward 4 bet shove on the flop for me. If you happen to run up against Aces then you just have to chalk it up to an anomoly. More often then not you're scooping a big pot or winning it right there on the flop. Not going to get much more value from AK on that board and you can always catch a 5 bet bluff/shove. I'm never folding in this situation. Your range of 3 bets from the button is so wide but when you 4 bet its like youre playing your hand face up. I'd never flat in this spot because its was too easy to get out flopped by a random middle position hand.

 

[DoubleEagle]

ou should be adjusting your raise size based on the limpers. Extra BB or so per limper.

Exactly how I do it. 3BB plus two more for the limpers=5xBB.

I call the 1,800 and see the flop.

 

[Thomacetti]

Jamming will let villain play his hand close to perfectly. He isn't folding AA or KK but he is folding AK & JJ. Hero wins 2,000 or is a huge dog in a 36,000 chip pot.

I think this could be a fine time to slow play. Hero has position. The SPR is something like four. Let's see if Hero can get the villain's stack on any non-ace flop.

I'm on this line....

 

[Bmeister51]

So you get an Ace on the flop then what? At the top of his range hes got AK but if he's overplaying AJ or AQ or even A10 suited you just cost yourself 10% of your stack and lose all your equity. Four betting gives you the ability to win the pot outright. If he shoves then he shoves but hes got way more hands he can smooth call and hit with if you don't tighten his range pre. I just don't think calling here is optimal. The likelyhood of you being up against an A-X hands is way more plausible and you essentially give away your 2k. Additionally He could be thinking he's safe playing QQ or JJ or 10 10. Putting pressure on a tighter player pre flop is always more successful and can disguise your hand and get bluffs through later in tournaments when the blinds and antes are essential for building your stack,

 

[Thomacetti]

You're going to let the vilain fold a worse hand and take a 15% pot, while next street he/she can't escape anymore ?

 

[Bmeister51]

Right but how much value are you going to get from an A-X hand on that board? Thats the difference maker for me.

 

[Thomacetti]

Since he is a very LAG player...he will call with any hit on the board or pockets.
If an ace from space is dropping, I can at least play pot control and fold if I can get a read (not happening ats)

Even with Ax he is still a <30% dog pre, with 3 blanks on the flop i'm almost >90%

I got in a similar situation during the WSOPE tourney last weekend.
Holding QQ and it was mid fase tourney (start day 2).

In this situation my stack was 100K(SB), vilain at 60K(BB&BA)...here I jammed.
Got called by A8o and vilain rivered an ace.
He got lucky...you will have to live with that during poker.
In this case the 'risk' was worth the juice, in the above situation it's not and slowplay is the way to go (imho)

 

[Pinball]

I am with @DrStrange when you just called pre call post too

 

[johnnycnote]

I want the pot now. 4 bet and hopefully he folds, if 5 bet, I'm all in. Not folding KK pre-flop

 

[Legend5555]

You have to sometimes slowplay KK. And a mediumish stack is a good time to do it. You can't live in fear of the A coming. The 3 bettors range is way more defined than our calling range. Plus we are in position. We can control how this hand goes.

Villain will very likely miss, and we get a cbet or more of value from him if he flops an overpair, top pair, flush draw, or straight draw. If we 4 bet pre, we shut him out of a huge portion of his range. And that's generally the right play. But some % of the time you have to have big hands in this spot.

 

[Thomacetti]

I want the pot now.

The whole........ 2700 (14 bb)
I would LOVE to play post flop with these hands (in early stage)

 

[Thomacetti]

You have to sometimes slowplay KK. And a mediumish stack is a good time to do it. You can't live in fear of the A coming. The 3 bettors range is way more defined than our calling range. Plus we are in position. We can control how this hand goes.

Villain will very likely miss, and we get a cbet or more of value from him if he flops an overpair, top pair, flush draw, or straight draw. If we 4 bet pre, we shut him out of a huge portion of his range. And that's generally the right play. But some % of the time you have to have big hands in this spot.

Yes, yes & yes
Very well put Sir

 

[krafticus]

Seating by stack size the way you have it seems awful. Does that mean that the lowest 10 stacks are at their own table?

as played, I’m jamming the flop. If he has AA or 10 10, gg

 

[p5woody]

Seating by stack size the way you have it seems awful. Does that mean that the lowest 10 stacks are at their own table?

No I finished 7th in the league, 1st) table1-seat1 2nd) table2-seat1 3rd) table3-seat1 4th) table3-seat10 5th) table2-seat10 6th) table1-seat10 7th) table1-seat9 ...

 

[skylines]

deleted bc p5woody explained seating.

 

[Frogzilla]

I play this preflop very differently. We’re so far away from the bubble that this whole medium stack small stack big stack is a nonissue...we are playing poker for 50bb (?- OP unclear) effective stacks.

1st pre action...definitely raise bigger with the limps ahead. Pot odds way too good for the blinds and limpers get to continue profitably with a huge range. I go 900 here not 600.

2nd pre action, I have a 4-bet small range and KK is usually in it. 1800 to just 4000. Villains 3-bet range is now uncomfortable.

Flop plays itself... clear call.

 

[Legend5555]

I feel I need to start being more "Doug Polky" with my explanations. There are often a variety of ways to play hands. Reading @Frogzilla makes me realize I didn't make it clear enough that the slowplay isn't something you should do very often. But this is a decent spot for it IMO. However, the standard should be to 4-bet smallish. I think both plays are good.

I would pretty much never just call out of position with KK though unless I had some amazing read on the situation.

Tangent:

Why 4 bet small? Because you aren't super deep and are in position. You don't have to bet as large to get the point across when the stacks are shallow. And when you have position, you can realize your equity in a pot much better. When stacks are shallow, it generally becomes so trivial to get it all in post flop in 3 and 4 bet pots because the pot is so big in relation to stack sizes. You don't have to worry as much about denying pot odds to call preflop because the weaker hand generally can't make up the value loss with such small stacks to play for. Plus they are out of position.

In cash games where stacks are much deeper, raises should be larger to get value and deny pot odds to call and crack a big hand.