Large & Small Crown sample chips (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter David Spragg
- Start date
OP
OP
Got my samples yesterday, very nice! I was surprised how much I liked the large crown, these would make an awesome old school set. I'm curious to see what others have to say about the scrowns, I'm not a huge TRK guy but comparing the new samples to the few TRKs I have (deadwoods), they felt pretty much identical. I did some blind comparisons, the inlayed cpc was maybe a hair smoother, and I couldn't tell the difference at all with the blank sample.
I foresee many many many scrown orders next year David, congrats on pulling this off!
I foresee many many many scrown orders next year David, congrats on pulling this off!
Klobberer
Full House
Mine too, but I'm going to wait for TRK non-weighted colors...
OP
OP
Klobberer
Full House
I thought I saw in another post that there were going to be more non-weighted colors in the future...I love the mold, but hate the brass flakes. I, personally, think it makes the chips look dirty. Brighter, cleaner colors are more important to me than half a gram of extra weight.
OP
OP
I talked about some of our existing non-weighted colors producing a TRK feel but didn't commit to anything further than that.
Developing new colors can cost a fortune and more often than not they fail.
Aside from the DG Tiger, all the other colors we have introduced are merely old Burt Co colors for many years ago that we still had the recipes for. Those are exhausted now.
There are a lot of issues in color development. It's not just a case of changing the dye or omitting the brass. There are many other ingredients which vary from color to color and they are not usually available in small volume. Some raw materials have a minimum order qty of over a ton. Just a box of dye can cost $2000 and then it might not even be compatible.
Then there is the process - clay is made roughly half and half from raw materials and the 'edgings' (waste from when slugs are punched out). The first time you try and make a new color you only have the raw materials, and as they change color with heat when pressed you have to go through several cycles of making slugs, recycling them mixed with raw materials etc. three or more times round. So you could spend $3000 and it doesn't work.
Then even if you find solutions that do work you have to risk the outlay of a reasonable qty of raw materials and find somewhere to store those materials, sheet stock and subsequently parts and the edgings, separate from every other color to avoid contamination.
In some cases it might be possible to just omit the brass, but it tends to substantially change the resulting color (except maybe for black) so generally you don't end up with what you expect. From what I've heard so far, customers would prefer to see anything new being close to TRK colors. I don't see this process will achieve that. I can see a demand for TRK like colors that are nothing like what we currently have, ie tan and turquoise, so we would expect to look at those, but it can't happen overnight I'm afraid. Other R&D stuff has a much higher priority.
In the history of clay chips, most unweighted colors are to a degree a 'modern' development. Go back thru 25 to 100 years ago and every clay chip had either brass or tungsten or lead in it.
In full understanding and appreciation of what David has just explained, I may suggest that, in the long run, just 2-3 new colors should be aimed at:
A Turquoise between Light Blue and Light Green, a Burgundy between Red and Maroon, and possibly a brighter and less green-ish version of DG Saturn, which I would call Lemon Yellow.
A Turquoise between Light Blue and Light Green, a Burgundy between Red and Maroon, and possibly a brighter and less green-ish version of DG Saturn, which I would call Lemon Yellow.
OP
OP
Those are all going to be really tough. Could be too much of a risk. There is a limit to what you can do with DG colors, you are pretty much fixed by the dyes that Dayglo Corporation manufacture, and we are using all of them!
I mentioned Tan because it was one of the most commonly used colors by TRK.
I presume you are aware of this?...
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/resources/trk-chip-color-reference.19/
Understood!
Anyway, I was talking wishfully and totally independently from what TRK colors had been.
Anyway, I was talking wishfully and totally independently from what TRK colors had been.
OP
OP
I think anything with resemblance to TRK is going to be much more in demand as there are many people looking to add to sets etc.
It's a tough call, I wish it was like mixing paint
FDLmold
Royal Flush
If you need free labor to do some experimenting, I'd bet you have about 100 people minimum who would be happy to help out with R&D.
detroitdad
Royal Flush
OP
OP
Problem is it's not really the labor, its the logistics - only one rolling mill, no spare presses etc. and realistically no-one could do anything without considerable experience. (The 4 full time employees have some 65 years between them!!)
Mtvernonbryan
Straight
Really like the large crown more than I thought!! Samples rule!
got my samples...They are fantastic. Thank you for making a lot of dreams potentially able to come true.
@David Spragg this might be really stupid of a question but how come you can’t just ask the previous owner of BCC or TRKing what they used for their colors and just copy that. I know this sounds so simple but since you are teaching me so much stuff figured I could learn a little more. Same with the tri-moon punch they previous used. Also didn’t BCC made an 8v chip how did they do it? They were not a multimillion dollar company from what I understood. I guess a chance for me to learn.
In a nutshell: different processes using different materials.
Burt Co./ASM/CPC chips are entirely different animals than those produced by TRK, BCC, and Paulson (which although not identical, are somewhat similar in nature).
Burt Co./ASM/CPC chips are entirely different animals than those produced by TRK, BCC, and Paulson (which although not identical, are somewhat similar in nature).
OP
OP
We asked multiple times. BCC sold their recipes to GPI for $1million to keep them secret. One of TR King's conditions in agreeing to sell in the first place was that they would never disclose theirs. In any case, their chips were cold pressed and their formulae included much liquid, ours is powder, so it wouldn't have told us anything.
BCC chips are pressed at low temperature just like Paulson. I don't believe they made any 8v's. If they are on the sun or shell mold then you might not know that they sold those two molds to Paulson years ago so many of the chips you see on those molds are not BCC. As I explained elsewhere, Paulson's equipment punches and assembles that pattern automatically (because they had $5 million to invest that we don't.
OP
OP
Correct, and as a result even all their equipment and molds are constructed completely differently.
Psypher1000
Straight Flush
That's...not convenient at all.
OP
OP
It's not. A couple of old molds that went from ASM ex Burt to BCC were rendered useless from our point of view. Shame as we could have had those back.
As it is I believe all the equipment went to GPI. Not quite sure why, they would never use it. Bit petty if it was just to stop someone else having it.
OP
OP
They could be hand painted spots. Believe it or not Paulson's first ones were before they moved to Mexico.
Psypher1000
Straight Flush
OP
OP
Maybe 15 years ago I had some chips to cash that included a $100 that was issued 10-15 years earlier (but still live) - Bally's Atlantic City. The spots were disappearing. Back then I had a friend working at Paulson so I checked out it was real before I took the risk of getting it cashed. He confirmed they were hand painted. Look at any more complex Paulson spots before about 2000 and see how irregular they all are.
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