Cash Game Just a little rant (2 Viewers)

[Mr Winberg]

This isn't that interesting, but I thought I'd share anyway.

So when I busted from my tournament on Friday I cashed myself out and headed straight to the cash table. It was a full table and had been playing all night by the felted tournament players. All I had done was handle the buy-ins and rebuys since I was making a deep tournament run.

I hear that they were allowing raises below the previous bet/raise size, e.g. someone bets 5, someone else raises 3 more, etc. (I learned later that it was because a beginner was getting it wrong again and again and they just stopped correcting and instead just went with the flow).

I kinda laughed it off with "haha, ok, well that ends now".

One of the players went like "well that's how we're playing, so..."

I said "well that was totally up to you and perfectly fine (note: diplomatic lie! It's not fine) since everyone was on board, but from now on we'll follow the proper rules."

The player said "Why? This is working perfectly fine. Let's just continue how we've been playing"

(I'm feeling insulted now. As a host having arranged this whole poker night, I was not feeling I got the respect I thought I deserved)
I said something along the lines of "why not just play football with your hands? Where's the harm? Why should we follow rules that are fundamental to the game?" (Americans: Football as in soccer. The argument doesn't really work with American football)

The player insinuated something about me being far to strict on rules (and between the lines that I was a buzz kill), and that we shouldn't change anything.

I got (for the first time in the conversation, believe it or not) noticeably pissed (Brits: as in mad, not drunk), and simply said "My game, my rules" (and under my breath something about it also being poker rules)

What still irritates me is that I came out of this looking like a stickler or a rules nazi or something. If the situation had been reversed, and I had been the guest (but still the one advocating following poker rules), I would not have pushed the issue as far as this player did, out of respect for the host.

The other players at the table are forgiven for allowing the madness since they were either kinda rookieish or new to my event. On your first visit I totally respect taking a back seat in situations like this.

Spoiler: tl;dr

 

[BGinGA]

As soon as he starts with the 'why not?' line, you need to flip it right back on him with '"You should know better, and not try to take advantage of unschooled players by allowing illegal bets."

 

[Mr Winberg]

you need to flip it right back on him

Oh, I felt the urge to flip something alright...

 

[sheikh617]

IMO, your game.. your rules. No one is forced to play there and people who are enjoying someone elses environment should defer to the host on things like that. You are also just following the actual rules of poker so I can't even begin to see the argument. When I host we have typically 6k+ worth of my equipment in play between the table, cards, shuffler, chairs, stocked fridge, etc. Last thing I want to hear is someone whining when I provide a rake free game with a great setup. You handled it better than I would sir.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I wouldn't have made a stink, but a good game should follow the rules.

 

[Beakertwang]

This has been my number one frustration in trying to run a good game, and also the type of situation most revealing and challenging to me personally. 9 out of 10 players, new or otherwise, will happily defer to the host/floor. Most of my guys even ask me if they’re unsure of something. That 10th guy who pushes back is usually a “type-A personality” (read: jerk), who’ll say he just wants to have fun, but really wants to be able to work the rules in his favor if a situation arises.

I had one guy—a friend-of-a-friend—at a recent game who talked like he knew how to play, and even griped how the floor a casino he played at failed to enforce rules against some regs the last time he played. He continued to make change out of the pot, even after I told him not to, refused to put his big chips out front, and even did the classic TV string bet.

It’s partly on him for being a jerk, for sure. But what really bugs me is my inability in the moment to stand up to his blustering, and demand what I know is right. There’s been a few moments like this in my games, and it’s making me realize that it happens in other areas of my life.

Stick to your guns, brother. Guys like that will eventually come around, even if begrudgingly, or they’ll ruin the game for everyone. I’d gladly lose a couple a-holes for the sake of a clean game and friendly atmosphere.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Not the exact situation you described but I had a similar experience where I was hosting and a player was deliberately ignoring etiquette while the rest of the table allowed it to go on. I handled it by saying the following (although no one insulted me it was insinuated that I was being too firm on the rules):

"There are rules to the game and the job of enforcing the rules falls on the host, and that person happens to be me."

The thing is, when you're a player in a private game, you're relying on the host to run a good operation. So if you let etiquette breaches and other stuff slide, you're letting down everyone who wants the rules enforced. And if you fail to do that, you'll alienate the most important people who took a chance and played in your game.

 

[Saoliver]

TL;DR -- Yes, stand up for the integrity of the game. Enforce the rules correctly and consistently.

I once allowed a rules violation, early in my hosting days. I still hear about it from my players 12+ years later.

One player (my brother) made a huge over-sized river bet, putting another player all-in (or so he thought). The other (inexperienced) player said "Raise" and grabbed another two barrels of $5 chips from a full rack that he had sitting next to him on a side table for drinks. I didn't fully understand what had happened (because I was playing at another table and didn't see the move). When my brother disputed it, I allowed it thinking that it was good for the game. My brother was PISSED!

Turns out that the (inexperienced) player had so many chips in front of him, that he thought it necessary to put a full rack of $5's next to him, off the table and out of view. He wasn't trying to "go south," he just thought it was more tidy and he could just grab the rack and put it back on the table when he needed to do so. My brother had just moved to this table a short while earlier, and had no idea how deep this player's stack was at the time.

I know better now, but they still bring it up almost every time we play.

 

[Rhodeman77]

TL;DR -- Yes, stand up for the integrity of the game. Enforce the rules correctly and consistently.

I once allowed a rules violation, early in my hosting days. I still hear about it from my players 12+ years later.

One player (my brother) made a huge over-sized river bet, putting another player all-in (or so he thought). The other (inexperienced) player said "Raise" and grabbed another two barrels of $5 chips from a full rack that he had sitting next to him on a side table for drinks. I didn't fully understand what had happened (because I was playing at another table and didn't see the move). When my brother disputed it, I allowed it thinking that it was good for the game. My brother was PISSED!

Turns out that the (inexperienced) player had so many chips in front of him, that he thought it necessary to put a full rack of $5's next to him, off the table and out of view. He wasn't trying to "go south," he just thought it was more tidy and he could just grab the rack and put it back on the table when he needed to do so. My brother had just moved to this table a short while earlier, and had no idea how deep this player's stack was at the time.

I know better now, but they still bring it up almost every time we play.

Hahahahaha that is awesome that they still give you shit over it.

I played in a monthly game with a bunch of UPS guys years ago that was very profitable but poorly run. I would play the tournament just to get into the cash game.

One time I bet all in against a guy thinking he was short stacked, he then pulls a bunch of big chips out of the cup holder in the rail. I protested they shouldn’t be live for the hand but since I took so much from them in the cash games I didn’t protest to hard when the host ruled against me. They all thought it was such a smart move to trap me like that.

It was a $20 tournament. We would play for many hundreds in the cash game.

But after that any time I played a big hand against that guy I always asked for a count.

 

[sheikh617]

One time I bet all in against a guy thinking he was short stacked, he then pulls a bunch of big chips out of the cup holder in the rail. I protested they shouldn’t be live for the hand but since I took so much from them in the cash games I didn’t protest to hard when the host ruled against me. They all thought it was such a smart move to trap me like that.

Damn that's slimey as hell.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Damn that's slimey as hell.

It was, but I was the rounder taking a bunch of their money every month when they just wanted to get shit-faced drunk and hang out. Poker was just the cool thing to do at the time for them. After a year or so they stopped telling where the game was each month.

 

[JustinInMN]

simply said "My game, my rules" (and under my breath something about it also being poker rules)

The trick is figuring out how to convey this message as the best interest of the game without seeming like it's only host preference in play.

Threads like this make all of us better hosts by giving us time to think about these situations in advance.

I mean you could go into the long exploration about how small raises needlessly prolong action and when use maliciously can be a tool of collision.

But I think just saying the rule is in the best interest of the game and informing the player he is trying to bend the rules to his preference should be sufficient.

Again, thank you for sharing this story.

 

[Mojo1312]

You played it all wrong. Instead of protesting, you should have gone with the flow. "Hey fellas, that sounds great. Why don't we make the game even easier by eliminating the blinds and having everyone post an ante?" "Oh, and you can straddle from any position."

Now that would have been hilarious!

 

[ATLarchip]

 

[Mr Winberg]

The trick is figuring out how to convey this message as the best interest of the game without seeming like it's only host preference in play.

Agreed. And yeah, I kinda tried that, I didn't share each and every word of the discussion with PCF since I don't really remember them all and more importantly it would be a really boring read. I think it was in the section where I compared to using your hands while playing soccer. The whole "my game, my rules" part was when I felt insulted and got fed up and didn't want to discuss it any more.

 

[Mr Winberg]

he then pulls a bunch of big chips out of the cup holder in the rail

Exactly this is what I did to the player later that night as retaliation. I won a huge pot!

Spoiler

Just kidding...

 

[DerberAlter]

@Mr Winberg I had some situation like this in the past and it's never easy. I'm just lucky that my regulars all know about the correct rules and they follow them, even when I'm not at the table

 

[detroitdad]

Our group is mostly PCF'ers. When something irregular happens most of the table already knows how to fix it.

We did have a fucked up scarney hand at the meet up. @k9dr or @Rhodeman77 did you ever post that? I can't remember.

 

[Mr Winberg]

@Mr Winberg I had some situation like this in the past and it's never easy. I'm just lucky that my regulars all know about the correct rules and they follow them, even when I'm not at the table

This is usually the case for me as well, but out of the four most knowledgable players when it comes to rules, one left after elimination due to being a little bit under the weather, and the other three of us made the final four in the tournament, so the cash ship was sailing without a captain.

Still, no harm done if they get a few things wrong. Everyone's on board and having a good time, the stakes are pretty low, and if there is a real dispute they know who to ask. I just got disappointed that I had to get into an argument and came out looking like the bad guy.

This is how the discussion should have unfolded:

1) I hear about the strange rule.
2) I laugh it off with "haha, ok, well that ends now".
3) Everyone says "ok".
4) Profit

 

[detroitdad]

I've been called a rules nazi before. That's fine. Without rules the game won't last. Good Job @Mr Winberg

 

[Mr Winberg]

I've been called a rules nazi before. That's fine. Without rules the game won't last. Good Job @Mr Winberg

Thanks!

I seem to remember someone here at PCF post an amazing comeback for when being called a rules nazi, but I can't remember it. I remember thinking that I should definitely write it up and use it next time, but alas, it has escaped me.

Does anyone remember?

(Just to be clear, I wasn't actually called it this time, but it was implied)

 

[Poker Zombie]

Thanks!

I seem to remember someone here at PCF post an amazing comeback for when being called a rules nazi, but I can't remember it. I remember thinking that I should definitely write it up and use it next time, but alas, it has escaped me.

Does anyone remember?

(Just to be clear, I wasn't actually called it this time, but it was implied)

My line:
"Until I start executing you and your children, I am not a Nazi. Please don't undermine what the Nazi party did."

I would also explain the "why" of the rule. Bet sizing is a strategic way to control the pot. If I still got guff, I would also say "Controlling the pot is essential to stack preservation, but you obviously don't know that, since you were eliminated from the tournament hours ago. Let's switch to using the rules, and maybe you'll learn something."

 

[Coyote]

My sympathy and support @Mr Winberg from a fellow "rules Nazi" host
Over the years, I had to put something like 5 players on the never-invite-again list, including a friend who ceased to be one, sadly, for being plain rude.
It's not just rules-breaking, it's disrespect to the host.
One of them was stupid and cheeky enough to invoke Democracy for doing what he pleased in my house, despite himself being an idiot (=privateer in Greek, not caring for the Polis = City). I explained to him that the Demos (=the People) were not invited in my house and that their rule ended outside my doorstep.

 

[links_slayer]

insta-perma-ban, obv.

 

[AnteAndy]

I play in a group that does exactly this. They think a min raise is the BB amount. I tried explaining the correct raising amount for a min raise, but they just say "it helps sweeten the pot." A proper raise not only sweetens it, but better your chances of winning the hand if you get enough players to fold. A BB min raise barely does anything for the pot, and everyone who's in would stay in since it's just a BB more.

These guys claim to be poker enthusiasts. They do other things like sheikh617 said and make change before betting completes on a street, and where it would make things more confusing when someone then makes a raise. They also never heard of the BB Ante structure for tournaments when I tried to explain it. He was about to change his league tournament structure to have the antes be X2 the BB.

It wouldn't be such a big deal if some of them had big egos.

 

[Mr Winberg]

My line:
"Until I start executing you and your children, I am not a Nazi. Please don't undermine what the Nazi party did."

Thanks! I should definitely write it up and use it next time!

 

[Ghoti]

This has been my number one frustration in trying to run a good game, and also the type of situation most revealing and challenging to me personally. 9 out of 10 players, new or otherwise, will happily defer to the host/floor. Most of my guys even ask me if they’re unsure of something. That 10th guy who pushes back is usually a “type-A personality” (read: jerk), who’ll say he just wants to have fun, but really wants to be able to work the rules in his favor if a situation arises.

I had one guy—a friend-of-a-friend—at a recent game who talked like he knew how to play, and even griped how the floor a casino he played at failed to enforce rules against some regs the last time he played. He continued to make change out of the pot, even after I told him not to, refused to put his big chips out front, and even did the classic TV string bet.

It’s partly on him for being a jerk, for sure. But what really bugs me is my inability in the moment to stand up to his blustering, and demand what I know is right. There’s been a few moments like this in my games, and it’s making me realize that it happens in other areas of my life.

Stick to your guns, brother. Guys like that will eventually come around, even if begrudgingly, or they’ll ruin the game for everyone. I’d gladly lose a couple a-holes for the sake of a clean game and friendly atmosphere.

I had a guy like that once. The husband of one of my colleagues. He'd laugh off all these rules--mock them, in his own way. Couldn't have a serious conversation with the guy and he was just overall obnoxious (not only for me). He doesn't get invited anymore.

 

[One Eyed Dollar]

Another thing you could point out, is that if your new players ever want to play at a casino, it is helpful to learn the rules from a home game first. Learning to bet wrong won't do them any favors in the long run.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I don't really get their reasoning, that they were being easy on the rookie. I've been in that situation a million times, it's not hard to just politely correct the bets. Someone bets 5, rookie raises to 8, I politely say "sorry, but since you raised, your total wager is 10", rookie says "ok" and increases to 10. I don't see the problem.

 

[Old State]

You should try to get a like minded friend or two to assist you in running the tourney. Back in the early 2000’s we hosted a 30-40 person tourney almost every month with substantial money to be won. Cash games always followed.

Thing is there were three of us in charge and we agreed 100% on everything. Total adherence to traditional casino rules poker. Most players appreciated that and were attracted to out tourneys because of it. There was usually one of us at each table but eventually everyone learned the deal and the players themselves would squash any goofiness before it got going.

Luckily in the circles I play in, knowing the proper rules is kinda of a point of pride. Know one wants to play cockamamie Mickey Mouse poker