Is Vegas dying? (5 Viewers)

[BigGrizz]

Well I don't want to bring out politics. That said, I think the problem with Vegas is corporate greed and too many MBA's trying to make the line go up next quarter. MGM and Caesar's are trying to maximize for shareholders. Apollo, I believe, is trying to milk the Ventian to its death and then dump it as private equity is one to do.

 

[Thomacetti]

Went in April and August.

April was the least busy it's ever been for the last 20+ years.

Fees are creeping up yes but I enjoy it being less busy.

In fact I enjoyed how not busy it was, that's why I went again in August and am going again in December.

Same here, I like Vegas much more during the off season without the blistering summer heat....December is perfect.

I used to lose 4-5 digits a year chasing tiers and comps so paying for overpriced a la cartes is far more preferable.

Same but once I had a discussion with my host and she said, sorry that 10K you drop in BI's during WSOP events doesn't count...we see nothing of that money...I told here where to stuff her loyality card after 5 visits in 2 years (almost 45 days in total) and zero comps.

Assuming Vegas is dying, what's the next Vegas, at least poker-wise?

Macao is already much bigger than Vegas (gamble revenue)....and the Asia Poker tour is exploding...online too.
I love Vegas, always will....I HATE online poker (trust is gone) and for live play, Sin City is still THE place to be for tourney poker.
I'm blessed with my Vegas family or I could not do 3 or 4 visits to Vegas each year without +5K in overhead each trip (without the flights).

 

[SixSpeedFury]

As a tourist destination, it still has it's unique features but it's running into the same issues Disney World presents. I don't mind resorts and parking fees to a degree - but when they're literally trying to squeeze every dime possible it's not just expensive, it's insulting. $15 for a draft beer on Fremont? $8 for a Gatorade in the gift shop? They're ruining the experience because the experience should be the most memorable part - not the cost.

When the cost leaves a bad taste in people's mouth long after the money is spent, that's a huge problem.

Sadly, they're going to have to feel the pain before they realize what drove people away in the first place.

This for sure. Ran into this experience last year when our family wanted to take our youngest to Disney World. Even when budgeting for a mid tier hotel, the price of the tickets ($130+ for one day tickets is absurd) and food and snacks, the total for a family of four was well north over $6k. Instead of going to Florida for that ridiculous amount, we went to France where we enjoyed Disneyland Paris, our oldest got to go a concert, and we visited London and Belgium for that same price. Disney World is no longer the most magical place on earth. At least for the high spenders, it is.

 

[Taghkanic]

There really isn't anywhere else that offers dozens of poker options at different properties all within walking distance of one another (relatively speaking).

But how many people really need dozens of poker options near each other?

If I can find one good casino, with decent food, reasonable rooms, and enough tables going to keep me occupied for 6-8 hours per day, I’ll stay there for 2-3 days. No need to hop from casino to casino.

Of course it is hard to find any truly good casinos which meet all those criteria. But having multiple bad options isn’t better.

 

[Taghkanic]

P.S. This isn’t poker related, but I watched a report which claimed that The Sphere is losing as much as $1 billion a year.

 

[BigGrizz]

Well ya. Ticket prices are insane so its hard to fill it up. Its not actually on the strip or super convenient to get to. And I can't imagine the electricity and maintenance bill...

 

[Coyote]

True Vegas is where YOU build it, IMHO.
And you can't build your own Vegas in Vegas.

 

[justsomedude]

P.S. This isn’t poker related, but I watched a report which claimed that The Sphere is losing as much as $1 billion a year

I’ll never understand that thing.

 

[Highli99]

These things ebb and flow. Vegas was amazing for a long time. It will be amazing again. But it probably won’t be the same.

 

[Lemonzest]

Big picture I wonder how sustainable the whole concept is. Many of the same games like blackjack are being offered and haven't changed much since the1930s. Personally, the draw of Vegas is greatly diminished due to high prices/fees and the often dingy vibe.

The biggest draw is probably restaurants and sitting by the pool. Those activities can be done in Asia/Pacific Islands/California/Arizona.

My guess is high cost of living across North America combined with high interest rates are pricing many people out of even a 4 day splurge in Sin City.

 

[Venturalvn]

One thing that tends to pop up is the argument that a lot of gaming prices hasn't increased that much over the last few decades until recently, or that it needs to. For example, quarter video poker is still prevalent at almost any bar on the strip.

The one that hasn't stayed static, though, is the cost of living. Rent/mortgage/car prices/food/etc. are exponentially more expensive than they were 20 years ago, which means that gambling budgets have likely experienced very little movement as a direct correlation and comparison. Food and housing is a requirement. Gambling is not.

 

[Moxie Mike]

But how many people really need dozens of poker options near each other?

I think it's more of the general variety that's available. It's not very common that you find $1/2 NLHE, $10-$25 PLO, $75 tournaments and $1k tournaments all in the same place, and even if you do it's not really a vacation destination. The same person isn't going to be interested in the entire spectrum - just what suits them personally.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

These things ebb and flow. Vegas was amazing for a long time. It will be amazing again. But it probably won’t be the same.

Same thing can't be said for Atlantic City. That used to be the go to destination on the east coast. Between PA having better options and NYC finalizing their three casino licenses next month, no one goes down there anymore. Borgata is their only calling card.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Food and housing is a requirement. Gambling is not.

For a lot of degens, I would argue it's the opposite...

 

[BigGrizz]

Same thing can't be said for Atlantic City. That used to be the go to destination on the east coast. Between PA having better options and NYC finalizing their three casino licenses next month, no one goes down there anymore. Borgata is their only calling card.

Atlantic city was doomed as soon as tribal gaming exploded. Tribal gaming is also a huge bleed on Vegas. Like in LA, Vegas isn't needed for gambling when San Manuel, Morongo, Pechanga, and Auguas Caliente exist. Vegas has to appeal to vacationers and the prices are preventing that.

Its a real shame Primm died. That would have been a good alternative.

 

[UniLover]

Macao is already much bigger than Vegas (gamble revenue)....and the Asia Poker tour is exploding...online too.

Yeah Macau surpassed Vegas in revenue in 2007 and only kept going.

Vegas #2 and Singapore is a rising #3 with only TWO CASINOS.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I think this year was my last time going to the WSOP Main Event.

I've never played in the ME, but I've been going nearly every year (skipped a couple of years) since 2015 in support of peeps. This year was INSANE from a cost perspective. Here are 2 examples of how stupidly expensive it has gotten:

1. My first stop was to buy a bottle of Elijah Craig bourbon. I usually buy a 1.75L bottle in VA for around $60. Well, I ended up just grabbing a 750ml and spent $79...WTF. A 750ml is $35 in VA.

2. Sunday brunch at Caesars. 2 or 3 years ago me and two buddies paid around $50 each for brunch including unlimited mimosas. This year I was there with my wife, and I had some Caesar reward points I needed to use. Thus, I didn't even check the price because I planned to pay with my points. I should have known some shit was up when there was no line and I was able to walk right up to the register to pay. I about shit myself when she said, "The total is $197." And then she asked, "would you like mimosas? That'll be $50 more." Hard no on the mimosas, but thanks. $150 per person for the same thing I paid $50 a couple of years earlier....WTF!!

Plus, some of the great low budget options like Ocean One Bar & Grill, which used to offer great drink and food prices (e.g., 3 premium drinks for $10), closed down. I'm sure deals exist, but I didn't have any luck finding any.

 

[BigGrizz]

Fuck 'em. If they price gouge like that, I'm glad they lost their slot in the S&P 500.

 

[Tarsus4]

Vegas is a destination for things other than gambling now, shows and cuisine are big sellers. Which are the things that used to get comped all the time. Hard to give things out for free that a lot of people are traveling to you to pay for.

The resorts have really mis-managed the transition from a gambling-first destination to experience-first-and-also-maybe-some-gambling, it's tough to see how they dig themselves out of the spiral given usual corporate short-termism.

(That said I'm going back again in January ).

 

[justsomedude]

Oof. They’re also jiggering with the slot payouts…

 

[BigGrizz]

Sounds about right. Some MBA with a spreadsheet probably found they could get like 2% more but cutting odds. Then they will be shocked when people stop playing (especially when the Indian casinos keep advertising their better odds).

 

[DrStrange]

Ms. Strange loves slot machines. She doesn't really mind losing her money, IF she gets to have a good time doing it. To her, having fun means lots of ups and downs and getting to play on her money for a reasonable period of time.

We were at the Horseshoe in Louisiana earlier this year. The slots burned her for $200 in less than 20 minutes. That wasn't fun. And it was the last dollar the casino got from her.

As for me? The Horseshoe had closed the poker room even though the casino is packed with promotions for the card room and still has it on their website. Even got a poker promotion as part of the room package. They didn't get a dollar from me either.

We'll see how the slots are going in Vegas tomorrow. She got burned by the Vegas Golden Nugget around 2011 and hasn't returned again. If the casino doesn't offer some entertainment for her losses, she'll be done. And not just for that trip. I expect it will be done for good.

DrStrange

 

[abby99]

Vegas was great in the 80's and 90's. It seems that the downward slide began when the big casino resorts wanted to attract families and corporate greed took over, and then private equity. Whatever problems they're having are self-inflicted. [SMH, Sigh!] For a while (early 2000s), Laughlin was a good alternative, being more like old Vegas. Today, you'd have a hard time convincing me to go back.

 

[BigGrizz]

I think a huge part of the problem is when MGM and Caesar's became a duopoly and toik over 70% of the strip. 2 companies is just not healthy competition. Things were healthier when Caesar's, MGM, Park Place/Balley's, Harrah's, Sands, Mandalay, and Wynn (then with the Bellagio) were all roughly par competitors.

Meanwhile today the North Strip just doesn't get the traffic of the Mid and South Strip. I honestly wish that both Caesar's and MGM would split or at least start selling some of their properties to other companies. Then again, the Strip is probably just fucked until those two companies suffer some cataclysmic results (which Caesar's is well on the way to).

 

[raynmanas]

trying to make the line go up next quarter.

this is all there is to it. it's a complicated equation with many variables, and poker is just one of many dials they can fiddle.

 

[BPTDirector]

Less competition always means higher prices. At the luxury level the more exclusive the perception the higher the price. Hence $5000 handbags, etc. really??? Vegas used to be luxurious at a great price, nevermore…. Paulson chips used to be forty cents each and people thought that was crazy.

 

[BigGrizz]

Well that's a whole other thing. I'm actually quite bearish on Paulson as a divison of Angel. If gaming keeps going this direction Paulson is going to have a hard time ahead. Table games are already on the decline. Corporate casinos want to save on costs (or really have to). Paulson chips are going to be one of those line items reduced in favor of more plastic alternatives. Not to mention the number of overall chips will probably decline as tables are further replaced with slots, gaming floors shrink, and more games are made digital.

 

[BPTDirector]

That’s ok. I’m covered.

 

[justsomedude]

trying to make the line go up next quarter.

this is all there is to it. it's a complicated equation with many variables

I mean, it's not that complicated.

We're living through exactly what happens when all of the economic knobs are yoked to 11 and quarterly profits and 401k "growth" are prioritized above all else; there's only so much left you can squeeze to keep "make line go up and to the right" economic theory on a constant upward trajectory. Eventually it stops. Or inverts. Or just collapses entirely.

 

[Rakrul]

I'm afraid Paulson is going to be closed down soon-ish, too. They primarily sell in the Americas and cheap plastic with higher security and electronic is taking over everywhere. There's no reason to keep producing them as they have a more expensive cost in a declining market with lower margins. And the casinos sure don't give a fuck about the looks of their tokens.