Is this an easy fold? (4 Viewers)

[Eriks]

Thats what the comments were....how lederer is a nit

Isn’t/wasn’t he though?

 

[johnnyesper]

This board should hit a preflop raising range from UTG a lot. So this should be a check raise from you. Followed by bet turn, bet river. If you c/r then get 3 bet on flop, you can go into check call mode. As played this is a river fold to the raise. People basically never show up with worse than a full house here as the preflop raiser.

And the current theory is that you should basically never lead into the preflop raiser. It's too hard to balance a leading range. And more importantly, playing from out of position is awful. So you sort of want to keep pots small, so a check back by the raiser isn't the end of the world. This isn't too say you don't want to pile money in with good hands, but think of all the misses and medium strength hands you could also have here and how you would play them. You would check on the flop. So you should check with your big hands too.

i completely agree with this. When you lead out multi-way into the PFR you put yourself into very tough spots for later streets. I think the mistake is the flop lead. After that it would have been very difficult to navigate overall. Taking this line you may have still lost but it may not have been the maximum.

 

[Legend5555]

Thats what the comments were....how lederer is a nit

That hand (KQ vs K9 on K9QJK) is quite different from the one in the OP. That was a limped pot in a tournament setting. Tuan had the 3rd nuts while our hero here had like the 6th. Plus in a raised pot, the ranges are way more defined. The villain opened UTG. So I think the hand in the OP is an easier fold.

Now, I will say that given the limped pot nature of the Howard vs Tuan hand, there aren't many hands Howard is repping other than KJ, KQ, and possibly AT by raising the river. Though would Howard call with AT on the flip of KQ9 with 2 people left to act? Wouldn't Howard raise with top 2 to knock out draws behind him? One thing that's clear is that Howard can't have a pocket pair full house that Tuan beats because Howard would have raised preflop. By today's standards, Howard shouldn't even have KQ or KJ here very often as those would get raised pre flop as the HJ after a limp and as the chip leader. So the question becomes "would Howard raise AT on the river? And how does he play KQ, KJ, and AT pre?"

I actually think Gus is a little off in his commentary. If you dissect a hand well enough, and know your opponent well enough, you can easily come up with folds in situations like this. Though, it's REALLY hard to come up with logical hands that Howard limps pre that beat KKK99.

In this hand though, given it was a limped pot and the ranges are all screwy, I think you likely just cry call and hope Howard thinks he's going for value with Tx or AT.

 

[Mike Wells]

Ah, the "great one". I'm actually born and raised in Brantford, Ontario. Very familiar with the Gretzky name.

Spent my high school summers working at the hockey camp in Wasaga Beach. My buddy there knew Gretzky's parents. Can't remember his name. Loooong time ago.

 

[AWenger]

Can’t find the video but there’s a hand with Tuan Lee vs Lederer and both have boats. Tuan tanks and calls and loses. Everyone at the table starts talking about how they could see a fold.
Gus Hansen: 'I love it when the pro's discuss folding full houses', I love it. I mean with the limp in the 6 handed pot means he has to have KJ, KQ... yeah that was a BAD call. I mean what the ****!'

Great recall. When I saw your post, I totally remembered this hand. Funny moment. Gus is such a witty bastard. Just found it on PokerGo -- the hand starts right after the 26 minute mark and the post hand comments continue through the next couple hands through 33 minute mark. If anyone has pokerGo -- https://www.pokergo.com/video/poker-after-dark--season-2-episode-26

Erick Lindgren also said something pretty witty & often true -- "funny how it's easier to fold when you're not in the hand."

I actually think Gus is a little off in his commentary. If you dissect a hand well enough, and know your opponent well enough, you can easily come up with folds in situations like this. Though, it's REALLY hard to come up with logical hands that Howard limps pre that beat KKK99.

I actually think Gus might not have entirely disagreed with the others' analysis, but because they were kind of picking apart Tuan's call after the hand, even Lederer (who won the pot), I think Gus partially said what he had to say to break the tension and make Tuan feel a little better. And it was pretty funny.

 

[The Nuts]

Hand #11358-61 - 2020-05-12 23:38:06
Game: NL Hold'em (1 - 2000) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Brantford Poker
Table: Table#1 NLHE .50/$1
Seat 1: VILLAIN (248.25)
Seat 3: GDJI (144.50)
Seat 5: ANOG77 (131)
Seat 6: HERO (404.75)
Seat 8: jpodge (210)
Seat 9: ChefWill (0) - sitting out
Seat 10: Gilly (241.50)
ANOG77 has the dealer button
HERO posts small blind 0.50
jpodge posts big blind 1
** Hole Cards ** [6 players]
Gilly raises to 4
VILLAIN calls 4
GDJI folds
ANOG77 folds
HERO calls 3.50
jpodge folds
** Flop ** []
HERO bets 6.50
Gilly calls 6.50
VILLAIN raises to 17
HERO calls 10.50
Gilly calls 10.50
** Turn ** []
HERO checks
Gilly bets 21.25
VILLAIN calls 21.25
HERO calls 21.25
** River ** []
HERO bets 42.50
Gilly folds
VILLAIN raises to 144
HERO calls 101.50
** Pot Show Down ** []
VILLAIN shows [] (a Full House, Queens full of Jacks)
HERO shows [] (a Full House, Nines full of Queens)
VILLAIN wins Pot (415.75) with a Full House
Rake (0) Pot (415.75) Players (VILLAIN: 186.25, GDJI: 0, ANOG77: 0, HERO: 186.25, jpodge: 1, Gilly: 42.25)

A hand from my session last night on my poker mavens site. Short version: Dealt 99 in SB, call a 4x preflop raise, flop is J9Qr, I bet out, get raised and call. I'm already in cautious mode as KT would have got there already. Turn is a brick, I check call a bet, river pairs the board with a second Q. I bet out (big mistake I think in hindsight), then I end up calling his large river raise.

Is this an easy fold for most? I hate paying off on the river like this. It's a big leak in my game that I need to get better at plugging. I should have been able to reason out that I don't think he shows up here with anything that I can beat, maybe the flopped straight with KT, but probably not that likely.

A boat is never an easy fold. This is a textbook cooler and theres not much you can do about it.

 

[tabletalker7]

Maybe I am missing something here (if I am please fill me in) but whenever the board pairs you have to be prepared for someone to be "that card" full. In this instance, villain has that with Queens full, while you are 9's full. With this hand there is no way to NOT lose some money (Even a check raise on the turn gets called by top two) but the river raise showed me queens full of something - 9's full here you got to get away from. (Being an PLO player I hear various saying some people don't) Always beware of bottom set is something us PLO players know all too well, and that is what you flopped. Only way to win this is to shove after the villain raised on the flop, and hope that villain with top two fears the straight.

 

[naked_eskimo]

Q9, or Q5 are not very likely holdings in that spot.

 

[Degen_Ethan]

Folding here is never easy. I think it really depends on your opponent, what their tendencies are, and how you believe you are perceived. If you don't think your opponent would overvalue a queen here, or would never bluff when you're so tight and showing obvious strength, then you can consider a fold. Still not an easy fold though.

 

[Pinball]

Fun thing here is first you prayed that none of the players has a straight. On the river you prayed hard that he has a straight.

I couldn't lay down... but I play much lower than 0.50 / 1.00

 

[grebe]

I think a 3 bet squeeze pre flop would be a great play here with nines. Calling isnt awful, though as long as you realize you are pretty much set mining against pre flop raiser and cold caller.

As played pre, this is a check raise post flop. K10 would just get lucky. After that, I am leading out a big turn bet. The river plays itself and I get coolered, but I would rest easy knowing I got my money in good. Big hands are just too hard to come by....and if you are playing scared you will miss out on other bets where you are good.

Also, please sign me up for that club where you never fold full houses. I would like to be a member.

 

[surfik]

Happens, been there done that. I folded set over set but only because I knew player. If villain was no name random player you had no choice. Maybe Phill Ivey would fold that, nobody else.