Incident at recent online home game.

naked_eskimo

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Beyond this recent behaviour is he normally a great person?
Very much so. I was in his wedding party. We've been friends forever. That is why I have brushed off so much from him over the last 9 months.

He's one of those bust or big win kind of players. When he gets stuck, he tends to just dig a deeper hole by over betting constantly. And he gets stubborn. Let's say that I have a premium hand (KK for example), I limp and he raises 12x. I will then pop it to 24x or something and he will ALWAYS call. Always. Never seen him fold even once in that scenario. He spite calls because he hates being played back at. He's his own worst enemy at the table. He tends to do way better live than online. He has not adjusted well at all. Live he is one of those guys that loves to talk in a big hand. Lie about his holding sometimes to induce a call or a fold, etc. Online, he does not have that aspect of his game to rely on. The fast pace of hands makes it so much easier to just fold and move on to the next one.

I'm the only one who ever says anything to him about anything. If there is anything like an alpha male in our group, it would be him. But not usually in a bullying kind of way. He's a big guy (6'4) with a big personality. Very affable, gregarious and generally quite fun to be around. It's only lately with Covid and late night drinking with online poker that has revealed some nastier aspects that I had never really seen before with him.
 

Coyote

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A despicable person, not deserving your friendship; who gives a f*ck about poker; poker has been in this case just an aspect of life where he exhibited his 4-year-old character.


On another note, and in order to cheer up a little bit:
I had an incident like this at my brother-in-law's home game back in the Spring. We have been playing for 15 years.

He accused me of taking advantage of him in a game that he didn't know well

@Saoliver you mean this came from a person who had already f*cked your sister? And he 's still breathing? :D
 

Coyote

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You see, Greek being more expressive:p, has separate terms for f*ckin somebody's sister (my BIL) and for having one's sister or daughter f*cked ("my groom", in that case) preventing misunderstandings like the above. :) :)
 

Jake14mw

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To me, two separate things here 1) Whether you play poker with him, and 2) Whether you continue to be his friend. You say it happened last week. I think two weeks is about the right amount of time to wait until you guys hash things out. Since he is a good friend, I understand sending him back the money. To me, that gives you the upper hand when you hash things out. I think he probably mis-bet. I also think that he was fine with it once he saw the flop, and would have expected you to pay him if he won.

If you really think his drinking is a contributing factor, then that's a discussion that should be had if you are really good friends. Also, the part about him swearing at you and threatening you. It's f#^&ing money in a poker game man, no excuse to talk to you like that. The real problem ain't the $200. If your friendship is important than maybe you two discuss not playing poker together if he can't not act like an ass.

One question for my reference and others - Is there a way to pause a game for things like this in Mavens or Pokerstars? I have a Pokerstars game tonight.
 

JustinInMN

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I have played in these online home games a bit. Not on Mavens. And I have never been an admin. Does the host have the ability to "pause the action" as some posters are suggesting?

Just curious. Personally I think villain took advantage of hero's kindness here.
 

Jimulacrum

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One question for my reference and others - Is there a way to pause a game for things like this in Mavens or Pokerstars? I have a Pokerstars game tonight.
I believe you can pause the game in progress, and you can exchange chips between players (or the host could put on his admin hat and change balances manually).

However, there's a rathole rule that would mean you can't have the two affected players leave and come back with different amounts. In this case, maybe that means you have everyone sit out and come back at another table if they're going to continue. But at a fuller table, of course, it would be much messier to do that.
 

naked_eskimo

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I have played in these online home games a bit. Not on Mavens. And I have never been an admin. Does the host have the ability to "pause the action" as some posters are suggesting?

Just curious. Personally I think villain took advantage of hero's kindness here.
Yes, I can pause the game immediately or even tell it to pause after the current hand. Very easy to do.
 

JustinInMN

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Yes, I can pause the game immediately or even tell it to pause after the current hand. Very easy to do.

So if your friend had said "pause" you could have done so. He said "sorry" but that was obviously unclear.

I didn't know admins had that power in these games.
 

naked_eskimo

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Yes, I could have, and would have, paused the game at any time prior to him calling my flop bet and continuing with the hand. And he knows this. He is a backup admin for when people want to play when I am uninterested or unavailable. He has access to the web based remote admin page. But I always have the Windows server console running in the background via RDP while playing. It would have taken me all of 5 seconds to pause the game.
 

BGinGA

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To me, two separate things here 1) Whether you play poker with him, and 2) Whether you continue to be his friend. You say it happened last week. I think two weeks is about the right amount of time to wait until you guys hash things out. Since he is a good friend, I understand sending him back the money. To me, that gives you the upper hand when you hash things out. I think he probably mis-bet. I also think that he was fine with it once he saw the flop, and would have expected you to pay him if he won.

If you really think his drinking is a contributing factor, then that's a discussion that should be had if you are really good friends. Also, the part about him swearing at you and threatening you. It's f#^&ing money in a poker game man, no excuse to talk to you like that. The real problem ain't the $200. If your friendship is important than maybe you two discuss not playing poker together if he can't not act like an ass.
My initial reaction to the OP story and later recorded convo was to say FU2, you're not getting sh!t back, and let the supposed friendship cards fall where they may as a result. Villain clearly has different views of friendship and integrity than do I.

But then I gave it some more serious thought, considered my own long-time good friends, including some, who although I love dearly, I really can't stand to be around when they're drinking. And thought about how I really would -- and have, in the past -- dealt with very similar issues involving friendship and mutual respect.

And so I came back to the thread, only to see that Jake (quoted above) had already outlined almost exactly what I planned on posting.

You two need to clear the air. There's a whole lot more to this saga than just a fucked-up online poker hand. Maybe you remain friends, maybe you don't. Maybe you remain poker acquaintances, maybe you don't. Most of it's gonna be up to him, in my view..... because from my perspective, some things are gonna have to change significantly for him to remain either one.

Best case, he reevaluates and comes to terms with his unacceptable behavior, and begins actually treating you like the good friends that you seem to think the two of you are.

Worst case, you guys never speak again, but you commence to whipping the ever-living crap outta him online, making that $200 freeroll scam of his seem like pocket change overall.
 

SixSpeedFury

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That conversation is very telling. Goes to show his true personality, drinking or not. If I were you, I would hash it out with him if you want to keep his friendship. As far as playing poker with him though? That's over.
 

Jimulacrum

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As far as playing poker with him though? That's over.
Yeah, the more I think about this, the more I think it might be necessary to cull him from the game, or at least have a very serious conversation that includes a warning that he'll be banned if there's any further unethical behavior.

This shit he pulled was a $200 freeroll angle against OP. It's right on the verge of cheating. Maybe it was calculated before he made the $173 bet, maybe not. Maybe he got drunk, screwed up with the interface, and then lost his judgment to boot. I don't know. That's between you and him. But that's a profound breach of trust that ought to be addressed before you sit with him at a poker table again.
 

Rhodeman77

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Betting $173 is not easy to do on Mavens. I don’t believe for a second it was a “mis-click” there is no single button to bet that much.

it has to be entered as an amount then click the BET button. Calling that amount could happen by accident easily, especially if playing multiple tables on a mobile device. I have done it and it cost me a lot of money, so I don’t do it anymore.

No way do I refund the money. Especially when he gets aggressive and name calling. The guy isn’t a friend. He is someone you know with the same hobby, there is a big difference. As host of the game I’d close his account and be done with him.

Short of that I would make it very clear that if he ever makes an “accident” bet again there will be no refunds coming. And that if he gets verbally abusive towards you or anyone else he will be kicked out, no further warning given.
 
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naked_eskimo

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As host of the game I’d close his account and be done with him.

Short of that I would make it very clear that if he ever makes an “accident” bet again there will be no refunds coming. And that if he gets verbally abusive towards you or anyone else he will be kicked out, no further warning given.
This is exactly where I am at now.
 

PlayerADK

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Yeah he wouldn't have returned the money if he won, and that's the bottom line for me haha

Depends on how close you are to him too. But a drunken verbally abusive jerk? No refunds lol
 

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Whatever you do in a situation like this, make sure villain understands your thoughts on the situation, and how you will react in future situations
Also, make up your own mind on how you react before things spin off
Go to bed, 3 handed, when raises get too big
Etc
 

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If your not willing to lose the money don’t play the game, tell him to get a new mouse for his computer and stop being a tool, cased closed and you doing all your other friends a favor, if he is willing to throw away a friendship for $200 he wasn’t your friend in the first place
 

redwine

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didnt read anything past the first post.

yeah this guy's a class A moron. i'm sorry he's your friend, guys like this shouldn't be playing poker and generally suck at life and will fuck you over when given the chance. doesn't matter if he was drinking we are all responsible for our actions. have some integrity.
 

grebe

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I remember watching this :ROFL: :ROFLMAO::ROFL: :ROFLMAO::ROFL: :ROFLMAO: bluffs people left and right then gets called and says just kidding! I’m dying this is so funny, send the money and pack your shit
I have seen this video before, and it was CLEARLY an angle, and it's a slam dunk ruling as a bet and call. But the interesting point was the line from Barry Greenstein, who basically said when weird bets like this come up, don't instacall....take a minute and make sure that the bet is what you think it is. There's a couple lessons in this, and I really like this one. Take a minute, make sure.

-Also, if you fuck around at a poker game, you can find yourself in some bad situations. That's not from Barry, that's from me.
 

legonick

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Since when is being a LAG bad for the game? Good players consider this great for the game! It's certainly legal poker, so I think he's free to play that way.

Regarding the $200 hand, I would lean towards not returning it. Seems pretty obvious he wouldn't have returned the money had he won - that said, of course he wouldn't, unless you claimed you called by accident...but with AK, hard argument there. You can simply explain, when he flopped top pair and stopped complaining, the hand is of course going to stand! Hopefully it's a lesson to him. He had the money on the table so it shouldn't be his rent. And on top of that, wouldn't he rather lose it to a friend than a grinder at a poker room he doesn't know?
 

HaRDHouSeiNC

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So he was obviously just pushing people around or trying because everyone was probably playing weak tight

Put on the big boy pants, three bet then jam the the River more and shut him down or expect to be run over

but to then say Chop the pot when he got caught on his joke bet
Yah
Not so much
 

CHP TD

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Look up the signs of a narcissist.

That conversation has MANY red flags alcohol or no alcohol.
Like
Villain: "we need to sort this out or we will have a problem"
Villain: "im not arguing anymroe"
Villain: "fucking retarded that you think that was a bet"
Villain: "up to you"
Villain: "think abot it"
Villain: "i typed as soon as i could gthat i made a mistake"
Villain: "im done after this game"
Villain: "for good"
Villain: "stop talking"
Villain: "you honestly think Im going to bet like 200 or more on a $2 pot"
Villain: "shake your head"
Villain: "np donnny"
Villain: "enjouy"
Villain: "i would have said fuck you because i tried to stop the hand and you didnt"
Villain: "totaly beside the point"
Villain: "WHO THE FUCK WOULD BET TWO OR THREE HUNRED DOLLARS ON ANY PREFLOP HAND RIGHT NOW 3-HANDED???? DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE??????"
Villain: "im not arguing anymroe"
Villain: "fucking retarded that you think that was a bet"
Hero: "but you should not have called then if you wanted to end the hand"
Hero: "you did not"
Villain: "regardless, does it make any sense at all?"
Villain: "no worries donny"
Villain: "we;re done"
Villain: "dont talk to me anymore'"
Villain: "fuck you"
Villain: "we're done. if you want to take me out of the game, go ahead"
Villain: "i mean remove my account"
Villain: "because youre being a cocksucker and we're done"
Villain: "you just ended our friendship over $200"
Villain: "enjoy it"
Villain: "buy yourself something nice"
Hero: "what do you think is fair?"
Villain: "stop talking to me"

Narcissists are all the same.
1 They are victims
2 You are made to feel bad
3 using logic is countered with statements that are to make you must be retarded or crazy for thinking that.
  • Villain: "regardless, does it make any sense at all?"
  • Villain: "fucking retarded that you think that was a bet"
  • Villain: "because youre being a cocksucker and we're done"
  • Villain: "WHO THE FUCK WOULD BET TWO OR THREE HUNRED DOLLARS ON ANY PREFLOP HAND RIGHT NOW 3-HANDED???? DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE??????"
  • Villain: "shake your head"
And most important they take NO account of their own actions. they just push more crap onto you.

This guy has shaped you well into being subserviant and he has done it many times before i bet its just normal.


There is no fixing them. they don't have empathy and don't need to apologize because they are never wrong.

these guys will kill your game but that is almost of no consequence compared to what he is doing to you.

Go back and look at those dot points.

Seriously Look at them.

These are not the ramblings of a well balanced human.

Thats how you would have your friends treat you?

My best mate picked up a female narcissist and i never could work out what i was doing wrong. I could never do anything right and my crazy behavior was pissing her off and if i could only change everything would be alright.

Sound familiar? just insert "retarded" or "cocksucker" instead of crazy and theres your guy.

Just for a reality test - All your comments in the chain are respectful, kind, logical and factual.

The villians comments are not logical, they dismiss any logic you present, they claim they are the vicdom, they all point to if you dont do something to make it right you will be destroying your relationship and its all your fault.

Can logically describe what you did wrong that woud end a realtionship with your best mate? Thats serious! Were playing for keeps here so you must have done something really bad right?

So lets look at your wrong doing in detail:

  • Was it a poker rule you broke? No That is airtight.
  • Were you being a hateful shrew? No
  • did you cuss at your friend? No

So explain to me what you did wrong? You did nothing wrong. Quite the oppisite - you did everything right.
Both in poker terms AND in how you handeled yourself with respect and grace in the middle of a very heated arguement that could end a relationship.

This is not your fault nor is it anything you should ever feel like you should fix.

So why did you? Thats a rhetorical question.

I have several emails and texts that are carbon copies of this conversation from 2 different Narssists. Some of the words may be different but the intent is always the same.

Feel free to drop me a PM if you think any of this is right. Im really happy to share my experience and just the damn insanity of having a narssist manipulator in your life.

Aternatively feel free to defend you mate and abuse me for being wrong and a hater.

But the offer is genuine and welcome either way.

You dont deserve any of this.
 
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