Incident at recent online home game.

SixSpeedFury

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Very much so. He just cannot lose a pot without bitching for 30 mins. Even on classic close equity situations like an overcard vs a small to medium pair. If I have A5 and call his preflop raise with 66 and hit an ace, he will bitch non stop about me "hitting a 3 outer".
He might be a very swell guy, but at the (virtual) poker table, he’s the perfect tool.
 

naked_eskimo

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I think in the interest of friendship, I would have refunded him a big chunk. Not the whole pot. Maybe 50%, maybe 75%, I dunno.
Realistically, based on the total picture (except friendship) fuck him. But if he's a friend and a guy you'd like to continue playing with, keep like 50, 60, 70 bucks, and ship the rest back to the asshead.
I thought about doing that, but then just decided to give it all back to him instead.

The worst part? That pot brought me to even. After sending him the money back, I was down $200 for the night.
 

Natskule

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I would not have given him the money back. If he would have stopped in the hand, I would have folded and let him win it back, but after calling your $40, it's a done deal.

I would try not to play poker with him again, sounds like a loud foul mouthed loser at the poker table.
 

upNdown

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Very much so. He just cannot lose a pot without bitching for 30 mins. Even on classic close equity situations like an overcard vs a small to medium pair. If I have A5 and call his preflop raise with 66 and hit an ace, he will bitch non stop about me "hitting a 3 outer".
This, I also don't understand, especially in the context of a LAG. If you choose to play like a LAG, you've got to be fearless. You know that style of play is going to be particularly swingy. Like, who the hell would push people around without being prepared to get knocked down, themselves?
 

Rieguy

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Is he on food stamps? Sometimes it costs ~$200 to learn a hard lesson or be forced to face some introspection.

An opposite example of the OP is a cash game I played this past Saturday. I was the short stack (30BB) and ended up heads-up on the flop versus a friend. I was holding AK and he had some trash. I shoved and he accidentally called, immediately stating the call was an accident before our hands flipped and the turn showed. My hand held and I offered him the amount of the call back due to the aforementioned. He flat out refused, and further, did not even want to entertain the discussion. We both voiced how the situation was unfortunate and moved on with the game.

I would just say I would not put myself or my other friends in a situation where this could be repeated with this individual; they would get the boot and only be considered after an apology to everyone and a repayment (as more of a symbol than a monetary gain). Even with that, it would be tough to reconcile what happened.
 

grantc54

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I thought about doing that, but then just decided to give it all back to him instead.

The worst part? That pot brought me to even. After sending him the money back, I was down $200 for the night.
Where did he stand at the end of the night? Was he up or down before you sent the $200?

I understand just giving him the $200 as to not have to deal with the ongoing headache, but I also agree with everyone who said to not playing poker with him in the future.
 

naked_eskimo

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If anyone is interested, I have stripped the ensuing argument out of the hand history: (warning, the language does get a bit spicy at times)


Hero: "because i had commented on your preflop sizing"
Villain: "thats shitty donny"
Hero: "how am i shitty?"
Hero: "you bet it"
Villain: "i fucking had q,4"
Hero: "i thought you were being cheeky"
Hero: "i didnt know that"
Hero: "i had AKs"
Villain: "i wanted to bet 43"
Hero: "i had to call"
Villain: "$"
Villain: "donny'"
Hero: "i didnt do anything wrong"
Villain: "we need to sort this out or we will have a problem"
Hero: "i never thought for a second you had misclicked"
Hero: "sort what out? you bet, i called"
Villain: "i had q,4"
Hero: "i did not know that"
Villain: "wanted to bet $3"
Hero: "how am i supposed to know that?"
Villain: "and i evenb said that right afrter"
Hero: "you did not say misclick"
Villain: "are you retarded? id bet what 300 on thats?"
Hero: "you said, oh sorry..as in i thought you were rubbing my nose in my earlier comments"
Hero: "never occurred to me you had misclicked"
Villain: "up to you"
Hero: "you didnt even say you made a mistake"
Villain: "we sort that hand out or im done for good"
Villain: "yes i fucking did"
Villain folds
Hero: "no you did not"
Hero: "you said..oh sorry"
Villain: "as fast as i could type"
Hero: "i thought you were being snarky about the previous conversation"
Villain: "think abot it"
Villain: "i typed as soon as i could gthat i made a mistake"
Hero: "i don't know what you think i should do"
Villain: "meant to bet 3"
Villain: "im done after this game"
Villain: "for good"
Hero: "i'm asking you, what do you think i should do here?"
Villain: "you do what you think is right"
Hero: "i dont think i did anything wrong, and i honestly did not get that you had misclicked..you didnt say that"
Villain: "om np"
Villain: "ok np"
Hero: "and then you called the other 40..so what if you had won then?"
Hero: "if you had won, what would you be doing?"
Villain: "i had no choice at that point"
Villain: "whatver"
Villain: "im good"
Hero: "not the question, what would you have done if you won?"
Villain: "stop talking"
Villain: "you honestly think Im going to bet like 200 or more on a $2 pot"
Villain: "shake your head"
Hero: "i thought yoiu probably had KK or something and were trying to bait me into a call"
Villain: "and ID BET $200????"
Hero: "what would you be saying right now if you had won?"
Villain: "q0 10 maybe"
Hero: "plus, i had just been sahying i dont like the large preflop raises, so i thought you were fuciking with me"
Villain: "np donnny"
Villain: "enjouy"
Hero: "i just happened to have AKs"
Villain: "all good"
Villain: "enjoy"
Hero: "if you had won, you would keep it"
Hero: "i;ve asked 3 times and you refuse to answer"
Villain: "asked me what|"
Villain: "?>"
Hero: "what if you had won"
Hero: "you kept not answering"
Villain: "i would have said fuck you because i tried to stop the hand and you didnt"
Villain: "totaly beside the point"
Hero: "and then you flop top pair, dont say anything more, call..and lose ...and then start taking again"
Hero: "so if you think you should have kept it if you won, then dont see how different should apply to me"
Villain: "WHO THE FUCK WOULD BET TWO OR THREE HUNRED DOLLARS ON ANY PREFLOP HAND RIGHT NOW 3-HANDED???? DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE??????"
Villain: "im not arguing anymroe"
Villain: "fucking retarded that you think that was a bet"
Villain: "because you didnt stop the hand when i said it was a misclick, thats why"
Hero: "you didnt say misclick on the flop"
Hero: "you can scroll up"
Hero: "you said sorry...saw that you hit top pair and then called"
Villain: "i was typing like a mother fucker to try and beat you to acting"
Hero: "you didnt say misclick"
Hero: "but you should not have called then if you wanted to end the hand"
Hero: "you did not"
Villain: "regardless, does it make any sense at all?"
Hero: "you called to see if you would win"
Villain: "no worries donny"
Villain: "we;re done"
Villain: "dont talk to me anymore'"
Villain: "fuck you"
Villain: "we're done. if you want to take me out of the game, go ahead"
Hero: "why would i do that?"
Villain: "i mean remove my account"
Villain: "because youre being a cocksucker and we're done"
Villain: "you just ended our friendship over $200"
Villain: "enjoy it"
Villain: "buy yourself something nice"
Hero: "what do you think is fair?"
Villain: "stop talking to me"

LOL, it seems when I used notepad to switch my name to Hero, it also changed "donny" to Herony. I've cleaned up the chat a bit now to get rid Herone and stuff where done or don't was intended.
 
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naked_eskimo

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Where did he stand at the end of the night? Was he up or down before you sent the $200?

I understand just giving him the $200 as to not have to deal with the ongoing headache, but I also agree with everyone who said to not playing poker with him in the future.
He was up at the time and his total profit for the night was probably a few hundred.

He was on the end of a long losing streak. Some of it bad luck, some of it really poor play. He gets very bluffy when stuck and is very easy to trap.

Looking at the chat log now I can see that he did actually answer me at one point about what he would do if he had won:

"Villain: "i would have said fuck you because i tried to stop the hand and you didnt"

He's lucky I just noticed that now. I would not have sent the money back if I had noticed that earlier.
 
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Irish

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If anyone is interested, I have stripped the ensuing argument out of the hand history: (warning, the language does get a bit spicy at times)


Hero: "because i had commented on your preflop sizing"
Villain: "thats shitty Heroy"
Hero: "how am i shitty?"
Hero: "you bet it"
Villain: "i fucking had q,4"
Hero: "i thought you were being cheeky"
Hero: "i didnt know that"
Hero: "i had AKs"
Villain: "i wanted to bet 43"
Hero: "i had to call"
Villain: "$"
Villain: "Herony'"
Hero: "i didnt do anything wrong"
Villain: "we need to sort this out or we will have a problem"
Hero: "i never thought for a second you had misclicked"
Hero: "sort what out? you bet, i called"
Villain: "i had q,4"
Hero: "i did not know that"
Villain: "wanted to bet $3"
Hero: "how am i supposed to know that?"
Villain: "and i evenb said that right afrter"
Hero: "you did not say misclick"
Villain: "are you retarded? id bet what 300 on thats?"
Hero: "you said, oh sorry..as in i thought you were rubbing my nose in my earlier comments"
Hero: "never occurred to me you had misclicked"
Villain: "up to you"
Hero: "you didnt even say you made a mistake"
Villain: "we sort that hand out or im done for good"
Villain: "yes i fucking did"
Villain folds
Hero: "no you did not"
Hero: "you said..oh sorry"
Villain: "as fast as i could type"
Hero: "i thought you were being snarky about the previous conversation"
Villain: "think abot it"
Villain: "i typed as soon as i could gthat i made a mistake"
Hero: "i Herot know what you think i should do"
Villain: "meant to bet 3"
Villain: "im done after this game"
Villain: "for good"
Hero: "i'm asking you, what do you think i should do here?"
Villain: "you do what you think is right"
Hero: "i Herot think i did anything wrong, and i honestly did not get that you had misclicked..you didnt say that"
Villain: "om np"
Villain: "ok np"
Hero: "and then you called the other 40..so what if you had won then?"
Hero: "if you had won, what would you be doing?"
Villain: "i had no choice at that point"
Villain: "whatver"
Villain: "im good"
Hero: "not the question, what would you have Heroe if you won?"
Villain: "stop talking"
Villain: "you honestly think Im going to bet like 200 or more on a $2 pot"
Villain: "shake your head"
Hero: "i thought yoiu probably had KK or something and were trying to bait me into a call"
Villain: "and ID BET $200????"
Hero: "what would you be saying right now if you had won?"
Villain: "q0 10 maybe"
Hero: "plus, i had just been sahying i Herot like the large preflop raises, so i thought you were fuciking with me"
Villain: "np Herony"
Villain: "enjouy"
Hero: "i just happened to have AKs"
Villain: "all good"
Villain: "enjoy"
Hero: "if you had won, you would keep it"
Hero: "i;ve asked 3 times and you refuse to answer"
Villain: "asked me what|"
Villain: "?>"
Hero: "what if you had won"
Hero: "you kept not answering"
Villain: "i would have said fuck you because i tried to stop the hand and you didnt"
Villain: "totaly beside the point"
Hero: "and then you flop top pair, Herot say anything more, call..and lose ...and then start taking again"
Hero: "so if you think you should have kept it if you won, then Herot see how different should apply to me"
Villain: "WHO THE FUCK WOULD BET TWO OR THREE HUNRED DOLLARS ON ANY PREFLOP HAND RIGHT NOW 3-HANDED???? DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE??????"
Villain: "im not arguing anymroe"
Villain: "fucking retarded that you think that was a bet"
Villain: "because you didnt stop the hand when i said it was a misclick, thats why"
Hero: "you didnt say misclick on the flop"
Hero: "you can scroll up"
Hero: "you said sorry...saw that you hit top pair and then called"
Villain: "i was typing like a mother fucker to try and beat you to acting"
Hero: "you didnt say misclick"
Hero: "but you should not have called then if you wanted to end the hand"
Hero: "you did not"
Villain: "regardless, does it make any sense at all?"
Hero: "you called to see if you would win"
Villain: "no worries Herony"
Villain: "we;re Hero"
Villain: "Herot talk to me anymore'"
Villain: "fuck you"
Villain: "we're Heroe. if you want to take me out of the game, go ahead"
Hero: "why would i do that?"
Villain: "i mean remove my account"
Villain: "because youre being a cocksucker and we're done"
Villain: "you just ended our friendship over $200"
Villain: "enjoy it"
Villain: "buy yourself something nice"
Hero: "what do you think is fair?"
Villain: "stop talking to me"

LOL, it seems when I used notepad to switch my name to Hero, it also changed "donny" to Herony

^ yikes

One of the very few bad things about poker mavens is that if you type in a bet and hit enter really fast, it'll do some goofy things like make a 25¢ bet a $25 bet. We've had it happen a few times to various folks since we've started playing, and it usually only takes once or twice to hammer the point home that you have to slow down and be careful (I typically drink when we play and I use the keypad for betting so I'm probably the worst offender lol). It's unfortunately just part of online gaming though, it happens and you have to take your lumps when you screw up.
 

JMC9389

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If anyone is interested, I have stripped the ensuing argument out of the hand history: (warning, the language does get a bit spicy at times)


Hero: "because i had commented on your preflop sizing"
Villain: "thats shitty donny"
Hero: "how am i shitty?"
Hero: "you bet it"
Villain: "i fucking had q,4"
Hero: "i thought you were being cheeky"
Hero: "i didnt know that"
Hero: "i had AKs"
Villain: "i wanted to bet 43"
Hero: "i had to call"
Villain: "$"
Villain: "donny'"
Hero: "i didnt do anything wrong"
Villain: "we need to sort this out or we will have a problem"
Hero: "i never thought for a second you had misclicked"
Hero: "sort what out? you bet, i called"
Villain: "i had q,4"
Hero: "i did not know that"
Villain: "wanted to bet $3"
Hero: "how am i supposed to know that?"
Villain: "and i evenb said that right afrter"
Hero: "you did not say misclick"
Villain: "are you retarded? id bet what 300 on thats?"
Hero: "you said, oh sorry..as in i thought you were rubbing my nose in my earlier comments"
Hero: "never occurred to me you had misclicked"
Villain: "up to you"
Hero: "you didnt even say you made a mistake"
Villain: "we sort that hand out or im done for good"
Villain: "yes i fucking did"
Villain folds
Hero: "no you did not"
Hero: "you said..oh sorry"
Villain: "as fast as i could type"
Hero: "i thought you were being snarky about the previous conversation"
Villain: "think abot it"
Villain: "i typed as soon as i could gthat i made a mistake"
Hero: "i don't know what you think i should do"
Villain: "meant to bet 3"
Villain: "im done after this game"
Villain: "for good"
Hero: "i'm asking you, what do you think i should do here?"
Villain: "you do what you think is right"
Hero: "i dont think i did anything wrong, and i honestly did not get that you had misclicked..you didnt say that"
Villain: "om np"
Villain: "ok np"
Hero: "and then you called the other 40..so what if you had won then?"
Hero: "if you had won, what would you be doing?"
Villain: "i had no choice at that point"
Villain: "whatver"
Villain: "im good"
Hero: "not the question, what would you have done if you won?"
Villain: "stop talking"
Villain: "you honestly think Im going to bet like 200 or more on a $2 pot"
Villain: "shake your head"
Hero: "i thought yoiu probably had KK or something and were trying to bait me into a call"
Villain: "and ID BET $200????"
Hero: "what would you be saying right now if you had won?"
Villain: "q0 10 maybe"
Hero: "plus, i had just been sahying i dont like the large preflop raises, so i thought you were fuciking with me"
Villain: "np donnny"
Villain: "enjouy"
Hero: "i just happened to have AKs"
Villain: "all good"
Villain: "enjoy"
Hero: "if you had won, you would keep it"
Hero: "i;ve asked 3 times and you refuse to answer"
Villain: "asked me what|"
Villain: "?>"
Hero: "what if you had won"
Hero: "you kept not answering"
Villain: "i would have said fuck you because i tried to stop the hand and you didnt"
Villain: "totaly beside the point"
Hero: "and then you flop top pair, dont say anything more, call..and lose ...and then start taking again"
Hero: "so if you think you should have kept it if you won, then dont see how different should apply to me"
Villain: "WHO THE FUCK WOULD BET TWO OR THREE HUNRED DOLLARS ON ANY PREFLOP HAND RIGHT NOW 3-HANDED???? DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE??????"
Villain: "im not arguing anymroe"
Villain: "fucking retarded that you think that was a bet"
Villain: "because you didnt stop the hand when i said it was a misclick, thats why"
Hero: "you didnt say misclick on the flop"
Hero: "you can scroll up"
Hero: "you said sorry...saw that you hit top pair and then called"
Villain: "i was typing like a mother fucker to try and beat you to acting"
Hero: "you didnt say misclick"
Hero: "but you should not have called then if you wanted to end the hand"
Hero: "you did not"
Villain: "regardless, does it make any sense at all?"
Hero: "you called to see if you would win"
Villain: "no worries donny"
Villain: "we;re done"
Villain: "dont talk to me anymore'"
Villain: "fuck you"
Villain: "we're done. if you want to take me out of the game, go ahead"
Hero: "why would i do that?"
Villain: "i mean remove my account"
Villain: "because youre being a cocksucker and we're done"
Villain: "you just ended our friendship over $200"
Villain: "enjoy it"
Villain: "buy yourself something nice"
Hero: "what do you think is fair?"
Villain: "stop talking to me"

LOL, it seems when I used notepad to switch my name to Hero, it also changed "donny" to Herony. I've cleaned up the chat a bit now to get rid Herone and stuff where done or don't was intended.
Yikes
 

naked_eskimo

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^ yikes

One of the very few bad things about poker mavens is that if you type in a bet and hit enter really fast, it'll do some goofy things like make a 25¢ bet a $25 bet. We've had it happen a few times to various folks since we've started playing, and it usually only takes once or twice to hammer the point home that you have to slow down and be careful (I typically drink when we play and I use the keypad for betting so I'm probably the worst offender lol). It's unfortunately just part of online gaming though, it happens and you have to take your lumps when you screw up.
I recently had shoulder surgery on my right arm, so have got quite used to using the presized buttons to minimize how much I have to reach for the keyboard. I find they work just fine for most situations in a game like this where bet sizing is not really paid much attention to as a potential tell or strategy, etc.
 

Irish

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I recently had shoulder surgery on my right arm, so have got quite used to using the presized buttons to minimize how much I have to reach for the keyboard. I find they work just fine for most situations in a game like this where bet sizing is not really paid much attention to as a potential tell or strategy, etc.

That's no fun, one of the benefits of playing online is that I can bet in ridiculous increments (especially in tourney mode!) without having to worry about constantly making change like I do in a live game. :LOL: :laugh:
 

Highli99

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Looks like you got angled with table talk. Sorry to hear that. Chips fall as they may in my game. Mis clicks give and Mis clicks takth away. It no limit holdem so folks who bet big pre like your villian. are giving their money away.
 

naked_eskimo

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Agree why is this guy your friend?
I've known him for a very long time. Almost 30 years now. We've always been very close. I am putting much of his recent antics on to the pressures of Covid and the fact that he lost his Mom last year as well in the fall. We've all had bad years with Covid, some way more than others. My wife lost her father last year as well. Also, in my opinion he is drinking too much, and when he does, he gets verbally abusive at the poker table. I've brushed most of it off (it helps that I am up a few grand since I put up the server).

None of that excuses his behavior, though. This one will take some time to blow over for me. If it does. I don't know that I will be able to view the friendship the same way after this event.

He told another friend who had already left the table for the night about this. I learned that while playing on Tuesday of this week. It's usually just me and one other guy most of the time in our Jitsi poker chat room. But what he conveniently left out of his version of the story was the fact that I gave him the money back. He also admitted, I was told in the chat, that he realizes that he was drunk and was out of line with his comments, but feels that I have to bear some responsibility for the situation as well.

Not sure what my responsibility is here. I kept my cool. Did not get abusive at all and even asked him a couple of times what he thought was fair and what he thought that I should do. All I got for response was always fuck you and you're a cocksucker. But sure, I have to bear some responsibility too...ok.


EDIT: I feel like I should add that I don't comment lightly on someone else's drinking. I quit drinking completely 3 years ago. I know how it can impact your play and your demeanor. I don't want to be a hypocrite and comment on someone else's drinking. I don't do it lightly at the first sign of bad drunk behavior. I've been there, I know what if feels like. But in this case, I do feel the comment is warranted.
 
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Jimulacrum

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Sucks to be him. Not shipping him a dime.

If the villains wants to negotiate a deal on his "mis-click" do it before the hand results are known. Somehow I suspect that had Q4 held up vs AK the villain wouldn't have been quick to send Hero his money back.

As for the larger issue - how to deal with a LAG making huge preflop bets. This is a license to print money. Treat the environment as a short stack game and gamble on 60/40 < or better > situations. Works even better if Hero has a relatively short stack so he can 3-bet/jam a wide range or fold.
DrStrange is on point as usual.

You won fair and square. He doesn't get to simultaneously claim a mistake that should be reversed and call the flop trying to play out what he thinks is a winner. If he'd said something prior to any flop action, I'd consider calling the hand null as an act of good faith and settling up the cash afterward. But as it played out, forget about it.

I would consider uninviting him from the game over pressuring you to pay him back for the pot. The situation feels very unethical from his end. "I made a mistake!" "Oh, wait, no, I think I'm going to win. Let's play it out." "Oh no, I lost. I made a mistake! Give me my money back!"

I actually find the intro to be an interesting topic in its own right. While you're entitled as a player to whine about people betting in ways you don't like, as a host, it's kinda out of line for you to pressure him to change his betting just because "I had signed up to play .50/$1, not $2/$4."

He has every right to bet as much or as little as he wants in no-limit poker. I don't think it's appropriate for you to initiate a "small conversation" with him—importantly, as the host—essentially telling him that he should bet the way you want instead of the way he wants. Like it or not, it's well within the rules.

Moreover, if you're adjusting your play to his raises such that you're making mistakes (like folding KQs preflop against a LAG while 3-handed), he may be strategically right to raise "too much" preflop. No one's forcing you to fold; you're choosing to fold even though you're likely way ahead of his range. The fact that he meant to raise to $3 with Q4o should tell you all you need to know. He's throwing his money away, and instead of picking it up, you're running away.
 

detroitdad

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I've known him for a very long time. Almost 30 years now. We've always been very close. I am putting much of his recent antics on to the pressures of Covid and the fact that he lost his Mom last year as well in the fall. We've all had bad years with Covid, some way more than others. My wife lost her father last year as well. Also, in my opinion he is drinking too much, and when he does, he gets verbally abusive at the poker table. I've brushed most of it off (it helps that I am up a few grand since I put up the server).

None of that excuses his behavior, though. This one will take some time to blow over for me. If it does. I don't know that I will be able to view the friendship the same way after this event.

He told another friend who had already left the table for the night about this. I learned that while playing on Tuesday of this week. It's usually just me and one other guy most of the time in our Jitsi poker chat room. But what he conveniently left out of his version of the story was the fact that I gave him the money back. He also admitted, I was told in the chat, that he realizes that he was drunk and was out of line with his comments, but feels that I have to bear some responsibility for the situation as well.

Not sure what my responsibility is here. I kept my cool. Did not get abusive at all and even asked him a couple of times what he thought was fair and what he thought that I should do. All I got for response was always fuck you and you're a cocksucker. But sure, I have to bear some responsibility too...ok.


EDIT: I feel like I should add that I don't comment lightly on someone else's drinking. I quit drinking completely 3 years ago. I know how it can impact your play and your demeanor. I don't want to be a hypocrite and comment on someone else's drinking. I don't do it lightly at the first sign of bad drunk behavior. I've been there, I know what if feels like. But in this case, I do feel the comment is warranted.

Understandable. My "poker relationship" with him would be over at a bare minimum.
 

naked_eskimo

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DrStrange is on point as usual.

You won fair and square. He doesn't get to simultaneously claim a mistake that should be reversed and call the flop trying to play out what he thinks is a winner. If he'd said something prior to any flop action, I'd consider calling the hand null as an act of good faith and settling up the cash afterward. But as it played out, forget about it.

I would consider uninviting him from the game over pressuring you to pay him back for the pot. The situation feels very unethical from his end. "I made a mistake!" "Oh, wait, no, I think I'm going to win. Let's play it out." "Oh no, I lost. I made a mistake! Give me my money back!"

I actually find the intro to be an interesting topic in its own right. While you're entitled as a player to whine about people betting in ways you don't like, as a host, it's kinda out of line for you to pressure him to change his betting just because "I had signed up to play .50/$1, not $2/$4."

He has every right to bet as much or as little as he wants in no-limit poker. I don't think it's appropriate for you to initiate a "small conversation" with him—importantly, as the host—essentially telling him that he should bet the way you want instead of the way he wants. Like it or not, it's well within the rules.

Moreover, if you're adjusting your play to his raises such that you're making mistakes (like folding KQs preflop against a LAG while 3-handed), he may be strategically right to raise "too much" preflop. No one's forcing you to fold; you're choosing to fold even though you're likely way ahead of his range. The fact that he meant to raise to $3 with Q4o should tell you all you need to know. He's throwing his money away, and instead of picking it up, you're running away.
That is fair, and you are, of course, correct. I should not have said anything. Everyone will complain about it to me, however. Once in a while I may say something, but you are right, I should not have. He has every right in a NLHE game to bet whatever he wants.

The thing that irritates me the most is that we used to have 2-3 other players that did the same thing constantly. He was the loudest complainer about that. He even pressured me to create a separate table with a buyin cap and a preflop raise cap. Then people started to play there and the other 2-3 guys just left and never came back. Once they were gone, the restrictions were lifted. Now he does the exact same thing constantly that he used to complain about. I guess it's the hypocrisy that eggs me on enough to say something.

And while he has every right to bet whatever he wants, I have every right to choose not to play. If it was a brick and mortar room, I would get up and find a different table. Not really an option here, though. So when I announce that I am quitting for the night (earlier than I normally would, and would essentially kill the game leaving them heads up), then I can answer him honestly as to why I am quitting early. But perhaps I should not give a reason, and just quit early.
 

Moxie Mike

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I've known him for a very long time. Almost 30 years now. We've always been very close. I am putting much of his recent antics on to the pressures of Covid and the fact that he lost his Mom last year as well in the fall. We've all had bad years with Covid, some way more than others. My wife lost her father last year as well. Also, in my opinion he is drinking too much, and when he does, he gets verbally abusive at the poker table. I've brushed most of it off (it helps that I am up a few grand since I put up the server).

None of that excuses his behavior, though. This one will take some time to blow over for me. If it does. I don't know that I will be able to view the friendship the same way after this event.

He told another friend who had already left the table for the night about this. I learned that while playing on Tuesday of this week. It's usually just me and one other guy most of the time in our Jitsi poker chat room. But what he conveniently left out of his version of the story was the fact that I gave him the money back. He also admitted, I was told in the chat, that he realizes that he was drunk and was out of line with his comments, but feels that I have to bear some responsibility for the situation as well.

Not sure what my responsibility is here. I kept my cool. Did not get abusive at all and even asked him a couple of times what he thought was fair and what he thought that I should do. All I got for response was always fuck you and you're a cocksucker. But sure, I have to bear some responsibility too...ok.

You're dealing with a person who blames everyone else for his problems. He has a victim's mentality and sympathy & manipulation are the currency on which he trades. These types of people are toxic and should not only be purged from your social circles, but shouldn't be a particularly welcome entity in your poker games, either. If they're hosting a live game, find another game or begin hosting your own game and invite who you want there.

Honestly, it sounds like you (and probably others) are enabling his behavior. The path of least resistance is to refund his money and I guess there's an argument to be made in favor of that but there's a bigger issue at play here. The fact is simple: he fucked up. Alcohol was probably a factor but he's a grown ass man.

I run games online and live so here's how I would have handled it (and my general policy): Misclicks happen. Technical difficulties happen. Misunderstandings happen. The cards speak and the software determines the outcome. It's the risk everyone assumes with online play. Think of it another way: if he'd timed out because of a dropped internet connection and his hand was mucked, how would you handle it?

But the deeper question is why is he allowed to act this way in your games? The fact that he threatened to end a 30 year friendship is very telling about the type of person he is. People like this typically don't change - he needs to be made aware that this behavior is unacceptable and if he continues this pattern then he won't be invited back. So my advice is to find your testicular fortitude and have a conversation with him - and since he's made the issue a public one, do so publicly so everyone knows EXACTLY what was said.
 

naked_eskimo

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You're dealing with a person who blames everyone else for his problems. He has a victim's mentality and sympathy & manipulation are the currency on which he trades. These types of people are toxic and should not only be purged from your social circles, but shouldn't be a particularly welcome entity in your poker games, either. If they're hosting a live game, find another game or begin hosting your own game and invite who you want there.

Honestly, it sounds like you (and probably others) are enabling his behavior. The path of least resistance is to refund his money and I guess there's an argument to be made in favor of that but there's a bigger issue at play here. The fact is simple: he fucked up. Alcohol was probably a factor but he's a grown ass man.

I run games online and live so here's how I would have handled it (and my general policy): Misclicks happen. Technical difficulties happen. Misunderstandings happen. The cards speak and the software determines the outcome. It's the risk everyone assumes with online play. Think of it another way: if he'd timed out because of a dropped internet connection and his hand was mucked, how would you handle it?

But the deeper question is why is he allowed to act this way in your games? The fact that he threatened to end a 30 year friendship is very telling about the type of person he is. People like this typically don't change - he needs to be made aware that this behavior is unacceptable and if he continues this pattern then he won't be invited back. So my advice is to find your testicular fortitude and have a conversation with him - and since he's made the issue a public one, do so publicly so everyone knows EXACTLY what was said.
I've been inclined to give him a lot of leeway lately due to Covid and losing his Mom. But that leeway rope is at an end. I'll be treating him like any other player from now on. If it ends the friendship, so be it. If it ends my invite to our eventual return to live poker, so be it. It won't be for lack of civility on my part, or a lack of me giving him any slack. It will all be on him.
 

naked_eskimo

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Think of it another way: if he'd timed out because of a dropped internet connection and his hand was mucked, how would you handle it?
No breaks for technical difficulty. I get tired of people and their shitty ass wifi slowing the game down all the time because they "want to play in their garage, so they can smoke cigars" or whatever. It's annoying. If you timeout, you lose the hand. No discussion. Why should other players be denied equity in a situation because you can't muster up a stable wifi?

Don't even get me started on the number of times we have to sit and watch a hand timer go down because "my laptop battery died" while they rush off to find their power adapter. And this happens repeatedly with him too. Why don't you just plug it in before you play? Did you suddenly realize that your laptop needs power? Ugh, so annoying.
 

Jimulacrum

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That is fair, and you are, of course, correct. I should not have said anything. Everyone will complain about it to me, however. Once in a while I may say something, but you are right, I should not have. He has every right in a NLHE game to bet whatever he wants.

The thing that irritates me the most is that we used to have 2-3 other players that did the same thing constantly. He was the loudest complainer about that. He even pressured me to create a separate table with a buyin cap and a preflop raise cap. Then people started to play there and the other 2-3 guys just left and never came back. Once they were gone, the restrictions were lifted. Now he does the exact same thing constantly that he used to complain about. I guess it's the hypocrisy that eggs me on enough to say something.

And while he has every right to bet whatever he wants, I have every right to choose not to play. If it was a brick and mortar room, I would get up and find a different table. Not really an option here, though. So when I announce that I am quitting for the night (earlier than I normally would, and would essentially kill the game leaving them heads up), then I can answer him honestly as to why I am quitting early. But perhaps I should not give a reason, and just quit early.
Jeez. So this guy essentially pressured you to drive multiple other players from the game and then engaged in the exact behavior he complained that they were doing? I mean, kinda makes sense because it's hard to play a LAG strategy with other LAGs in the game, but just strange and unfortunate that he would act like this. More evidence in favor of uninviting him, TBH.

Understand, I'm not saying you can't ever talk to him about it. As the host, you have the right to curate the game as you please, and to let players know if and when they're becoming a problem for the game itself. Something from the perspective of "I'm concerned that your wild style is going to drive other players from the game" would be okay. But what you said here is that you simply complained about how it was affecting you personally, and it blurs the line between you as a player and you as the host.

Not gonna lie, it's a tough spot, and one I've seen come up more than once in poker forums. As long as no-limit is the dominant betting structure, it will come up again and again. It's a structure that's made for ruthless competition, or for sharks to fleece weak players really fast. In a friendly game, it's liable to lead to irritation, hurt feelings, and people eventually quitting.
 

naked_eskimo

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I know that I technically am the "host", but I only really feel that way more in an admin kind of way (like setting up the server and funding it), or when conflict resolution is required between other players. When it comes to playing, it's an open scenario. Often people will play when I don't. When I sit down, I feel like any other player, for the most part. But I do agree with the comments that I should not have had that conversation with him prior to the blow up. Duly noted. I won't say anything in the future.
 

grantc54

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No breaks for technical difficulty. I get tired of people and their shitty ass wifi slowing the game down all the time because they "want to play in their garage, so they can smoke cigars" or whatever. It's annoying. If you timeout, you lose the hand. No discussion. Why should other players be denied equity in a situation because you can't muster up a stable wifi?

Don't even get me started on the number of times we have to sit and watch a hand timer go down because "my laptop battery died" while they rush off to find their power adapter. And this happens repeatedly with him too. Why don't you just plug it in before you play? Did you suddenly realize that your laptop needs power? Ugh, so annoying.
If this is a friend of 30 years it sounds like you need to give him a call to has this out. If he maintains his shitty stance maybe it's time to phase out this friendship.

Life is too short to waste energy on toxic relationships. Beyond this recent behaviour is he normally a great person?
 
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