Cash Game How to calculate PLO pot sized bets from the blinds preflop? (1 Viewer)

[Bacon Dad]

Trying to figure out how the blinds are handled preflop if the player decides to bet the pot from either the SB or the BB. I am familiar with the 3x method of calculating pot size outside of the blinds.

In our game, the stakes are 10c/10c and playing 6-handed.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks so much!

 

[LeLe]

decides to bet the pot from either the SB or the BB.

the stakes are 10c/10c

30c is the pot size bet

Formula is size of the pot (20c) + last outstanding bet (which will be BB so 10c) + the amount you need to call (since SB stake = BB stake so is 0c)

So for example

Stake is 10/20c, the Pot Size bet will be 60c (30c + 20c + 10c)
Stake is 20/20c,The pot size bet will be 60c (40c + 20c + 0)

 

[Rakrul]

What I've learned is 3 x the last bet + remaining pot.

So both blinds in means last bet is 10. Multiply by 3 and add small blind = (10x3) + 10 = 40. Next pot bet would be (40x3) + 10 + 10 = 140.

Now let's say it's fold to sb. The pot limit is the same for every one, 40, and since he already has 10 in, he adds 30 more making the total 40. If BB wants to pot, it's (40x3) + 10 = 130. Since he already has 10 in, he adds 120.

 

[mipevi]

Now let's say it's fold to sb. The pot limit is the same for every one, 40, and since he already has 10 in, he adds 30 more making the total 40. If BB wants to pot, it's (40x3) + 10 = 130. Since he already has 10 in, he adds 120.

Nope, it’s not the same since SB already has 10 invested. When the action reaches SB, he has nothing to call and there is 20 in the pot. That is the max amount he can add to the pot. So SB can make it 30 total, no more.

 

[Bacon Dad]

10c/10c stakes
Preflop
SB +10c (pot is 10)
BB +10c (pot is 20)
Fold all the way around to SB
SB says POT IT
But you don’t apply the 3x rule here because
he already has money in the pot and his
initial 10c bet is already included in
the pot total of 20c which cancels the 10c call
from the initial BB bet.

@LeLe, @mipevi
Does this logic also apply to other players that
already bet once and have money in the pot
and are being asked to call a pot sized raise
from the BB but they too want to re-raise
to the pot size in lieu of calling?

 

[Legend5555]

If everyone folds to SB and he pots, it's simply 3x the BB. If everyone folds to the SB and he limps, BB can also only pot to 3x.

The technical way Pot is calculated is call the current bet, add all bets and current pot, the add that amount to the call. The shortcut is 3x the last bet plus all other money in the pot NOT including the last bet.

2 limps in the field, then a raise to 3x, button now watts to pot. 3 x 3 = 9. 9 + two limps (2) + BB (1) + SB (.5) = 12.5. or using the technical method, button calls the 3 the adds 3 (his) + 3 (initial raise) + limps and blinds (3.5). 3+3+3+3.5 = 12.5.

So in a blind on blind situation, it always ends up as just 3x the last bet. SB calls the .5 then adds his current 1 + BB (1) for a total of 1+1+1=3. Same for the SB limping and the BB raising.

 

[LeLe]

Just as what @Legend5555 explained, 3x shortcut method is still the easiest method

But you don’t apply the 3x rule here because

it is still applicable but 3 x 10c for SB and BB is still equal to 30c

 

[Legend5555]

Just as what @Legend5555 explained, 3x shortcut method is still the easiest method


it is still applicable but 3 x 0c for SB and BB is still equal to 0c

I see it as 3x still, there just isn't any other dead money amount to add to it. So blind on blind is just 3x + 0.

 

[LeLe]

I see it as 3x still, there just isn't any other dead money amount to add to it. So blind on blind is just 3x + 0.

I got brainfk while typing and came out as a typo, what I meant to say is 3 x 10c is still equal to 30c

 

[mipevi]

Does this logic also apply to other players that
already bet once and have money in the pot
and are being asked to call a pot sized raise
from the BB but they too want to re-raise
to the pot size in lieu of calling?

I don’t use short-cuts for anything other than opening pre. And even then the x could be different based on the blinds and betting rules, like a 1/2 game where the small blind may or may not be counted as a full blind for betting.

Instead I’d recommend just remembering that if you are in a position to call but want to raise, calculate that call into the current pot to get the max amount that you can raise (on top of your call).

 

[rjbf65]

In my experience this subject confuses a LOT of players. I got in an argument with a guy in a PLO tourney one time. The blinds were 400-800 and I raised it to 2400. I told him I could actually go up to 2800 if I wanted to but he was not having it. No one else in the game knew for sure how it worked. Needless to say, it was frustrating. He was thinking I could only go up to 2000 total.

Anyways, the next morning I found and texted the following article to the host of the game and 2 of the other players at the game. I didn't have the number of the guy that argued with me to send to him. I still don't think he fully grasps how it works.

https://omaha.advancedpokertraining.com/poker/articles/beginners/how-to-calculate-the-pot-in-plo.php

 

[Machine]

In my experience this subject confuses a LOT of players. I got in an argument with a guy in a PLO tourney one time. The blinds were 400-800 and I raised it to 2400. I told him I could actually go up to 2800 if I wanted to but he was not having it. No one else in the game knew for sure how it worked. Needless to say, it was frustrating. He was thinking I could only go up to 2000 total.

Anyways, the next morning I found and texted the following article to the host of the game and 2 of the other players at the game. I didn't have the number of the guy that argued with me to send to him. I still don't think he fully grasps how it works.

https://omaha.advancedpokertraining.com/poker/articles/beginners/how-to-calculate-the-pot-in-plo.php

I love citations! Good job ... but there are somethings ...

1) I don't recognize the cited site as an authority.
2) I also disagree with the definition given

It’s more complicated though if you are already facing a bet, because you have to include the cost of your call into the pot size.

This is both true and false depending on the context, in the author's assumed context it is true, but when I read it, my context was given in a 're-pot' context where you wouldn't include your original call.

Example #1​

Question: Pre-flop, you are under the gun. The blinds are $5 and $10. What is the maximum you can bet?

Answer: The last “bet” (the big blind) was $10, and what was in the pot before that was $5. So the math is (3 x $10) + $5. You can bet up to $35.

In this Example I would argue the game would play better if you do as most others do which is consider the SB as a full unit or bet. ($40 is the max)

I think the site did a great job to explaining the betting in PLO but I would also like to point out there are several nuances with PLO betting.

"you can't please all the people all the time" - Socrates (kappa)

 

[Rakrul]

I don't want to quote everyone who corrected my on the sb raise but I surrender.

 

[Nymor]

Instead I’d recommend just remembering that if you are in a position to call but want to raise, calculate that call into the current pot to get the max amount that you can raise (on top of your call).

This (imo)

Understanding what the pot actually is from 1st principles, rather than shortcuts, when calling "Pot" is much clearer and easier to remember. It's especially useful when trying to explain the betting rules to someone new to pot limit and it works every time.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

No idea why you guys are so concerned with calculating it yourself, you just say pot and the dealer will tell you how much. Duh.

 

[Legend5555]

This is both true and false depending on the context, in the author's assumed context it is true, but when I read it, my context was given in a 're-pot' context where you wouldn't include your original call.

This is why the most accurate way of explaining it is "call whatever the current bet is then add to that EVERYTHING out there including what you just called." That is the TOTAL bet you put out when you say "pot."

Saying pot means you are making a pot sized raise, not a pot sized bet. So you have to call whatever is the current bet, add together everything that is now out there, then put that much more out for your raise.

 

[Bacon Dad]

No idea why you guys are so concerned with calculating it yourself, you just say pot and the dealer will tell you how much. Duh.

In my work game, I am the dealer and player and wanna get it right.

I’m not in the south where the jezebel can attend the debutante’s ball and not care about having to calculate pot-sized bets. That happens down there, right?

 

[Machine]

I do play in a game where its PLO, but with over bets, so if someone bets larger than the pot, its on the 'callers' to 'call it back'. can be brutal

it has 3 dealers in the game and all but 1 of the player can accurately calculate the pot

 

[Nine_high]

It's the same when repotting after someone pots your bet. 3x the bet plus all the rest is the biggest you can make it. You don't add in your own live bet when calculating the rest. Your live bet is part of what you're making it. As a quick example, pot is 100, you bet pot, villain pots you making it 400, you can repot it to 1300. You don't add 1300 to your 100, you just make it 1300.

So SB can pot it to 30. 3x the BB plus zero. His posted 10 is live and part of that 30.

 

[Bacon Dad]

His posted 10 is live and part of that 30.

I like the way that is said. It will work well when I am explaining it to my poker guys.

 

[timinater]

@Bacon Dad as you can see there isn't really consensus and even less so in the greater poker world. Pick the house rule that makes the most sense to you and your crew and stick to it.

We use 3x the last bet + the rest. If you want to pot it, it's on you to know how much is in the pot. We also always consider the SB completed when calculating a PFR.

ALSO, we're not getting in the weeds about pot size bets. If you're going to pot it, it's on you to know how much is in the pot. No one is going to double check the math on it unless it seems egregious. I don't recommend that for all games, of course. We have been playing together for ages at friendly stakes, we'd rather keep the game moving than dilly dally counting up the pot.

 

[Machine]

So @Bacon Dad - How did the game go? Did you F it up 65 million times?! Did the crew like it? we need the 'deets' as the kids say

 

[Bacon Dad]

So @Bacon Dad - How did the game go? Did you F it up 65 million times?! Did the crew like it? we need the 'deets' as the kids say

Right! The game went without a hitch. It was our first time with PLO High and we played for 3 hours, seven-handed most of the night.

No issues in calculating pot size and we kept our socks and shoes on the whole night. When anyone had a question on calculating the size of the bet, I was able to give an answer and understood why. Thanks for everyone’s input. It was helpful.

We stuck with the 3x last bet + what was remaining in front + the pot. Most of my guys limp and rarely fold so we were never in a blinds-only hand. It’s a regular, friendly game between coworkers so we don’t fillet the fish. They want to play and learn.

There were quite a few times where we had to count the pot because someone was opening a round of betting and they were higher than the pot total. Otherwise, it was a quick spot check of simply 3x the last bet to make sure they weren’t putting in too much on their bet without trying to actually pot it.

Everyone enjoyed the new game, and we will definitely work it in with rounds of NLHE at our next game.

Thanks again to everyone here for providing their insight and experience. It paid off.

 

[Bacon Dad]

So @Bacon Dad - How did the game go? Did you F it up 65 million times?! Did the crew like it? we need the 'deets' as the kids say

Last hand of the night I felted a gambler with an Ace-high straight draw for the largest pot of the night. He is not a fish by any stretch. He knows how to play and likes action.

Stakes were 10c/10c. Buy in was $20.
I was in for $20 and out for $55.60.
Typical pots were between $8-$12.

Here’s the last hand of the night.

Sitting four-handed.
Hero is on the button with $30+.
Villain is the SB with $25+.

Preflop bet was SB, BB, limp by the CO.
Hero has in hand and raises pot to $0.50.
Villain re-pots it to $1.80.
BB calls and the CO swims away.
Hero calls.
Pot is $5.50.

Board reads on the Flop.
Villain checks.
BB limps in.
Hero raises to $4.00 (Should I have raised pot here?)
Villain calls and BB swims away.
Pot is $13.60.

Heads up on the Turn and it gave us a .
Board now reads read .
Villain raises pot to $13.60.
I’m thinking the Villain has given his betting. But I did not consider if Villain has top pair and is looking for a possible full house or quads on the River.
Hero calls.
Pot is $40.80.

The River pukes up a and Hero is happy!
Board now reads .
Villain goes all in with his remaining $6+.
I’m thinking he might be bluffing. He bet strong the whole hand and it’s at the end of the night and he is ready to go home. Or we tie if he has an A/J like me and we split the pot.
Hero has the nuts and has him covered
Hero calls.
Pot is $52.80.




Villain shows

Spoiler

.





Bacon for the WIN!!!
It was the largest pot of the night for our little 10c game.

 

[davislane]

Board reads on the Flop.
Villain checks.
BB limps in.
Hero raises to $4.00 (Should I have raised pot here?)

You cant limp if you are already on the flop. That happens preflop when someone just calls the big blind to enter the pot.

Its not called raising if you are the first to bet.

From a hand playability you shouldnt be opening that hand. Probably should be mucking it preflop. Hand is trash. Some might argue you can splash around with a suited ace. I dont know how splashy your game is but based on the size of the pots id argue its not a splashy game. Based on that assumption why are you calling the reraise pre? The lead on the flop makes no sense as you are drawing to a gutshot and thats it otherwise your expecting your opponent to have connected with this board more often than not based on your holdings. Turn is a PLO miracle as it gives you both the straight with him having blockers to the nuts.

TLDR. who taught you all how to play PLO? @Goldfish

 

[Machine]

Board reads on the Flop.
Villain checks.
BB limps in.
Hero raises to $4.00 (Should I have raised pot here?)
Villain calls and BB swims away.
Pot is $13.60.

Well a $4 bet is basically a pot size bet, so you kinda did, and if you would have done the full 1.5 more, you'd have been trying harder to give your money away.

So to directly answer your question, Fuck NO you shouldn't have bet at all let alone POT!
You got NOTHING with a gutterball draw, you hit a 4 outer in PLO, which is really like a 2 outer in NLH
I guess you could have hit an ace or a ten to win, but again, you have to HIT to win this hand, but as long as you're having the fun you're a winner in my book

 

[doublebooyah85]

Ok here’s a question.

Blinds are 5-10-25.

(All blinds are counted as $25)

Button straddles.

SB calls $50
BB calls $50
Forced $25 calls to $50.
Another player calls $50.

What can button raise to?

$350? I think I was told this was wrong…that’s 3x the last bet then adding the tail.

 

[Nine_high]

Preflop bet was SB, BB, limp by the CO.
Hero has in hand and raises pot to $0.50.
Villain re-pots it to $1.80.
BB calls and the CO swims away.
Hero calls.
Pot is $5.50.

Board reads on the Flop.
Villain checks.
BB limps in.
Hero raises to $4.00 (Should I have raised pot here?)
Villain calls and BB swims away.
Pot is $13.60.

Heads up on the Turn and it gave us a .
Board now reads read .
Villain raises pot to $13.60.
I’m thinking the Villain has given his betting. But I did not consider if Villain has top pair and is looking for a possible full house or quads on the River.
Hero calls.
Pot is $40.80.

The River pukes up a and Hero is happy!
Board now reads .
Villain goes all in with his remaining $6+.
I’m thinking he might be bluffing. He bet strong the whole hand and it’s at the end of the night and he is ready to go home. Or we tie if he has an A/J like me and we split the pot.
Hero has the nuts and has him covered
Hero calls.
Pot is $52.80.




Villain shows

Spoiler

.





Bacon for the WIN!!!
It was the largest pot of the night for our little 10c game.

I probably just fold this pre flop

 

[Bacon Dad]

I probably just fold this pre flop

I thought suited Aces was a hand you want to play in PLO.

 

[Nine_high]

Ok here’s a question.

Blinds are 5-10-25.

(All blinds are counted as $25)

Button straddles.

SB calls $50
BB calls $50
Forced $25 calls to $50.
Another player calls $50.

What can button raise to?

$350? I think I was told this was wrong…that’s 3x the last bet then adding the tail.

Button can make it $300?

There's no bet for button to call, so you do it the hard way and just add up the bets so he can raise $250 making it $300 to go. Right?