Cash Game How many chips do I need for running 10/20 O8 game?

grandgnu

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I may be putting together a regular 10/20 Omaha hi/lo cash game at my place and was wondering how many chips of each denom I should have?

We will have a dedicated dealer that works for tips, so will need $1 chips in the mix. Min buyin will be $200. I assume most buyins will be in the $500 range, and of course there's rebuys to account for. Was thinking something like this:

200 x $1
1,000 x $5
100 x $25
50 x $100


Look ok?
 

jbutler

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yeah that will work. one of the games i play is a $10/20 mix and the host has 800 $5s and even that works fine. we usually get at least two racks of green on the table by the end of the night, but if you're fine breaking out the blacks, it shouldn't be a problem.
 

grandgnu

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Why the $25s?

200x $1
1200x $5
100x $100

Easy, simple, beautiful. [emoji3]

I play a 10/20 HK game at the casino and I see more $25's in play than I do hundos. Not sure if I'll do the HK on this game or not yet though
 

Mental Nomad

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Crazy idea, but this option is out there if you're building a set for this game:

200 x $1
600 x $10
200 x $50

Your original had a bank of $12,700 in 1350 checks ($7,700 without the hundos).
This is a bank of $16,200 in 1000 checks - fit in a birdcage.

The $10 check is a natural for a 10/20 game.
$50s make more sense than $25s in 10/20 limit, and can completely replace the hundos.

Barrel of $10s is a $200 buy-in.
Barrel of $50s is a clean $1000.
 

jbutler

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Crazy idea, but this option is out there if you're building a set for this game:

200 x $1
600 x $10
200 x $50

Your original had a bank of $12,700 in 1350 checks ($7,700 without the hundos).
This is a bank of $16,200 in 1000 checks - fit in a birdcage.

The $10 check is a natural for a 10/20 game.
$50s make more sense than $25s in 10/20 limit, and can completely replace the hundos.

Barrel of $10s is a $200 buy-in.
Barrel of $50s is a clean $1000.

i guess in this structure you'd play the game with $10/10 blinds?
 

atomiktoaster

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i guess in this structure you'd play the game with $10/10 blinds?

If I was dealing, I'd want to stick with a $5 small blind in singles. If they're moving around a lot I think they would end up in the toke box more frequently.
 

Mental Nomad

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If I was dealing, I'd want to stick with a $5 small blind in singles. If they're moving around a lot I think they would end up in the toke box more frequently.

Exactly right. It's much easier for people to tip with the smallest denom in the pot than to buy change just for tipping.

The dealer should probably stack the singles on the side of the tray until they're 10, and then drop a $10, because you don't want to deplete the $1 pool for small blind convenience.
 

jbutler

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maybe it's just me (and the hundreds of casinos who spread $10/20 limit games), but i'd rather just use $5 chips rather than have people post small blinds with 5 $1s and buy 600 $10 chips that are basically useful only in this game to be used by a group of people who have used $5 chips to play $10/20 for their entire lives.
 

Bloody Marvelous

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If you're playing with 9 players, I'd say get 2,000 $5 chips.

Have a rack of $1 chips in the bank, but don't distribute them. If you're raking the game, then the players will get the $1 chips automatically, if the game isn't raked, assume a $5 chip thrown as a tip means a $1 tip and give the player $4 in change. If the player wants to tip more than $1, he'll throw the extra chips towards the dealer. Never, ever drop the tips. Tips should go directly into the dealer's pocket, never in a dropbox. What goes into the dropbox goes towards the house. Players want to tip that particular dealer for that particular hand, not a pool of dealers. That makes the tipping impersonal, and the players will tip less.

Maybe have a rack of $25 chips for rebuys, should you run out of $5 chips, but 2,000 $5 chips is $10,000 in the bank so that should really be sufficient.

This all is assuming that money is unlimited when buying chips...
 

Mental Nomad

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Never, ever drop the tips. Tips should go directly into the dealer's pocket, never in a dropbox.

Around here, in places that don't pool tips, dealers just carry their own toke boxes between tables, but they never put anything in their pockets.

A dealer's hands going near pockets is a risk to game security. Most casino dealer uniforms even include an apron whose purpose is to cover the pockets so nothing can easily get into them.
 

xt!

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Ideally I would want to give the dealer a tray with 200 singles and let them make change, dropping $5s for tips as required, letting them give players change as required. I would also want AT LEAST 2 racks of $5s per player. You don't want to deal with the mechanics of making change with $25s or $100s very frequently, if at all.

You may find that a lot of your players will want to start with two racks (I always do, and most ppl in the o8 games around here and at the Venetian do the same) so I would personally shoot for 2500-3000 in $5s and then a reserve bank in hundos unless that goes past your expected budget for getting the chips.
 

Chicken Rob

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If you're gonna go half kill, get:

200 x 1
1600 x 5
200 x 100

The $100 chips should only play to keep cash off the table. Ever 10/20 and 15/30 game I have ever played in (a LOT of them) has played with 5s only. The $100 chips can just stand in to all,ow topping up when the 5s are gone, and people can make change at the table if need be.

You can probably scale back to 100, 800, 100, but if you are going to do something inexpensive yet secure (custom ceramics?) may as well just splurge for 2k chips and make it a nice experience for the players.
 

jbutler

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You can probably scale back to 100, 800, 100, but if you are going to do something inexpensive yet secure (custom ceramics?) may as well just splurge for 2k chips and make it a nice experience for the players.

definitely this. may as well get plenty of chips if you're going for a cheaper option. are you thinking getting some of the new Apache china clays, gnu? custom labels?
 

grandgnu

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Haven't decided on chips for the game just yet, still looking at my options. At first I liked the $1 and $10 chip idea, but the problem is that the player in the SB is most likely going to just put the $10 chip out there and check their option fairly frequently, so not sure that addresses the tipping issue.
 

xt!

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A 4 chip 8 chip structure > 2 chip 4 chip structure >>>>>> 1 chip 2 chip structure for many reasons. And if your sb frequently has a chance to limp your game sucks anyways. :)

Maybe tell your players that your dealer is working for tips only and that since its a non-raked game it shouldnt be an issue.... then buy assloads of snappers and nothing else. Just thousands of pink chips.
 

grandgnu

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[QUOTE="xt!, post: 56819, member: 391" And if your sb frequently has a chance to limp your game sucks anyways. :)

.[/QUOTE]

Loose/passive full-ring games with 5+ players to the flop are goldmines, because the calling stations won't fold when the better players valuetown them, they'll pay off with non-nut highs and lows frequently.

Of course, I'm basing this off my limited time with the player pool at the local casino, got a private game I'm playing Thursday where I'll meet some other potential players as well.
 

Mental Nomad

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the player in the SB is most likely going to just put the $10 chip out there and check their option fairly frequently, so not sure that addresses the tipping issue.

As long as you've got the singles in their stacks, they'll have them to tip. And if they need five dollars for the small blind, you have an excuse to put them in their stacks, even if they never fold their blind.

Although I like the idea of a boatload of snappers, too. :p
 

Chicken Rob

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playing the half kill will suck with $10 chips. Even playing 10/20 is not going to be as good with 10s as it will be with 5s. Though I like the idea of a boatload of snappers (I once played 30/60s with all reds) I think 10/20 and 15/30 will play well with reds, and cost half as much.

Walk into any casino running 10/20 and 15/30. They will be all red chips. I'm not sure how much better the game will play with snappers instead of reds.
 

catalyzeme

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I think poker chip collecting decorum states that you calculate the maximum number of chips you could reasonably get onto the table, then triple it.

Then add higher denoms.
 

Mental Nomad

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playing the half kill will suck with $10 chips

This is a really good point. If you play with a half kill, this is a strong argument for having a good stock of $5s in play.

If I were building a set specifically for 10/20 limit play, it would still have primarily 10s/hundos, but I would also get $5s in play for the small blind, and singles for tipping.

I do like the idea of a ton of snappers for some games, but not for 10/20... the minimum bet on half the rounds would be 8 chips!

I don't know if the dealer would do better, or worse, with snappers instead of singles... my gut says worse, but I guess it all depends on the players. I don't play those games, so I don't have a feel.

Another alternative - if I didn't go with a $10-based set for this, I'd definitely go with a set where I can do $20 checks instead of $25.

$5-$20-$100 works better for 5/10 and for 10/20 than a lineup with $25 in it.

But I don't think I could resist the golden opportunity to build a set based on the $10.
 

courage

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Walk into any casino running 10/20 and 15/30. They will be all red chips.

maybe it's just me (and the hundreds of casinos who spread $10/20 limit games), but i'd rather just use $5 chips rather than have people post small blinds with 5 $1s and buy 600 $10 chips that are basically useful only in this game to be used by a group of people who have used $5 chips to play $10/20 for their entire lives.

200 x $1
1600 x $5
200 x $100

^^ this.
 

Mental Nomad

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Walk into any casino running 10/20 and 15/30. They will be all red chips.

I can't speak for everywhere, but in AC, lots of place made $20's for the Pai Gow tables, and later, put $10s and/or $20s into play in the poker rooms. Others don't want to deal with it, for the sake of a couple of games.

Same deal happens with $2 chips, even though a 2/4 game is more common. Not used often, but they are used - like at the Foxwoods in CT.

Most houses won't make special chips for games - they just work with whatever they've already run - but they don't all just run red chips.

upload_2015-5-12_15-4-0.png


upload_2015-5-12_15-4-33.png


upload_2015-5-12_15-5-46.png
 

jbutler

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I can't speak for everywhere, but in AC, lots of place made $20's for the Pai Gow tables, and later, put $10s and/or $20s into play in the poker rooms. Others don't want to deal with it, for the sake of a couple of games.

Same deal happens with $2 chips, even though a 2/4 game is more common. Not used often, but they are used - like at the Foxwoods in CT.

borgata doesn't even allow the $10 chips to play in $20/40. they still use redbirds in $20/40 because of the dynamic xt mentioned earlier - a 4 chip/8 chip structure is superior to a 2 chip/4 chip structure and vastly, vastly superior to a 1 chip/2 chip structure. the $10 chips are used in $30/60 and $40/80 games. the $20 chips are used in $80/160 games.

i have never once seen a $2/4 game run with $2 chips. foxwoods $2/4 runs with $1s. the lowest that they play there with $2s is $4/8.
 

xt!

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Same on the west coast. Smallest game I've seen run wi $2 chips was a 8/16o8 at the venetian. Belagio and bay 101 use $5 chips for up to the 20/40 and 10s for 30/60 and 40/80
 

Mental Nomad

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a 4 chip/8 chip structure is superior to a 2 chip/4 chip structure and vastly, vastly superior to a 1 chip/2 chip structure. the $10 chips are used in $30/60 and $40/80 games. the $20 chips are used in $80/160 games

Ok, I'll accept that's what they're doing... but I don't "get" why a 4 chip / 8 chip dynamic is good, at all. As a former dealer, I can easily cut two stacks of four checks, stack it for eight, and cut two matching stacks of eight to call two cold... but most players I see take a lot more time to do that, or come up with 24 checks some other way.

Even pre-flop, players aren't the smoothest putting up four or eight.

I guess the players have an appreciation for handling more chips, and for having more physical chips in a pot? Not something that's a big factor, for me personally.

i have never once seen a $2/4 game run with $2 chips. foxwoods $2/4 runs with $1s. the lowest that they play there with $2s is $4/8.

True, my bad.
 

Ben

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I don't "get" why a 4 chip / 8 chip dynamic is good, at all.

Me either - while the chipper in me appreciates giant stacks of chips, the "bottom 10% of humanity in hand-eye coordination" in me doesn't get why 4-chip/8-chip would ever be better than 2-chip/4-chip, other than for some players to be able to look like pokah ballahs cutting off 4 big bets in the blink of an eye.

I get why 2-chip/4-chip has it's advantages, although 1-chip/2-chip with a smaller chip for the SB plays just fine IMO. What IS the advantage of 4-chip/8-chip?
 

snooptodd

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borgata doesn't even allow the $10 chips to play in $20/40. they still use redbirds in $20/40 because of the dynamic xt mentioned earlier - a 4 chip/8 chip structure is superior to a 2 chip/4 chip structure and vastly, vastly superior to a 1 chip/2 chip structure. the $10 chips are used in $30/60 and $40/80 games. the $20 chips are used in $80/160 games.

i have never once seen a $2/4 game run with $2 chips. foxwoods $2/4 runs with $1s. the lowest that they play there with $2s is $4/8.

The first time I played in a casino, it was a $2/$4 game at Foxwoods and they used $2 chips, but that was at least 10 years ago.
 

manamongkids

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last time i was at foxwoods I saw 2/4 limit holdem being played with $2s, which was like 3 months ago
 

jbutler

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The first time I played in a casino, it was a $2/$4 game at Foxwoods and they used $2 chips, but that was at least 10 years ago.

last time i was at foxwoods I saw 2/4 limit holdem being played with $2s, which was like 3 months ago

my turn to admit fault, i guess. i've never played it, but i'd always seen the oxygen tank tables with lots of $1s and thought it was $2/4 LHE. maybe it was $1-5 stud. anyway, apologies for being so certain and yet wrong.

but I don't "get" why a 4 chip / 8 chip dynamic is good, at all. As a former dealer, I can easily cut two stacks of four checks, stack it for eight, and cut two matching stacks of eight to call two cold... but most players I see take a lot more time to do that, or come up with 24 checks some other way.

Even pre-flop, players aren't the smoothest putting up four or eight.

I guess the players have an appreciation for handling more chips, and for having more physical chips in a pot? Not something that's a big factor, for me personally.

Me either - while the chipper in me appreciates giant stacks of chips, the "bottom 10% of humanity in hand-eye coordination" in me doesn't get why 4-chip/8-chip would ever be better than 2-chip/4-chip, other than for some players to be able to look like pokah ballahs cutting off 4 big bets in the blink of an eye.

I get why 2-chip/4-chip has it's advantages, although 1-chip/2-chip with a smaller chip for the SB plays just fine IMO. What IS the advantage of 4-chip/8-chip?

at its core, it's the same reason it's better to use chips than cash, disassociating value from the chips themselves. if a player views a chip as a bet, he is more reluctant to use the chip. if he views the chip as merely 25% or 12.5% of a bet, he is more likely to use the chip. you may ask why it follows that, if he is willing to use ONE chip, why he would be willing to use four or eight. the answer is that he is a moron. this is your target audience.

further factors that militate in favor of 4 chip/8 chip structures*:

- bigger stacks make it less obvious when a player is bleeding chips until many more have evacuated his stack than he'd have otherwise let go
- bigger pots look juicier and players are much more likely to rationalize calling no matter the value of their hand or draw
- bigger initial buy-in stacks allow players to delude themselves into thinking their 200 $2 chips are somehow baller which causes them to internalize a disregard for money, therefore gambling more in general

if the concern is that the players can't capably handle the chips, i wouldn't be worried. guys who are going to go to a $10/20 O8 home game have had plenty of experience handling chips.

*note that the 4 chip/8 chip structure itself is not somehow inherently advantageous. the idea is to use the most chips that can be physically handled without the game turning into a giant mess. so if you're playing in a methodone withdrawal support group or michael j. fox's home game, for the love of god, use a 1 chip/2 chip structure. otherwise, load up.

if you don't want to take my word for it, i did a quick google and found this article by lee jones regarding some of brick and mortar card rooms' more egregious since in which he had to say the following with regard to limit structures:

Lee Jones said:
PLAY YOUR LIMIT GAMES WITH SMALLER CHIPS

If you go to California or Las Vegas, you’ll see that Limit Hold’em games are played with chip denominations such that the betting structure is either 3-chips/6-chips or 4-chips/8-chips (with the occasional exception of $2/$4 and $10/$20). Do you know what happens when you have 3-6 and 4-8 structure Limit games? You build big pots. I mean physically big pots that require two or three scoops by the dealer to get to the winner of the hand. People see big pots, they want to get involved – both in the sense that they want to be in the game with the big pots, and they want to be in the hand where the big pot is building. 3-6 and 4-8 structure games always have more action than 2-4 or (God forbid) 1-2 structure games. And more action translates to more rake. But more importantly, it also translates to happier, more enthusiastic players. It also, by the way, translates into better tokes for the dealers. If you’re getting a three scoop pot from the dealer, a single $1 chip seems like a mean toke.

There’s a corollary to this: by structuring the games this way, you can make the action go faster by only having one denomination chip on the table. Any time you have multiple denomination chips on the table, you end up having to make change, make sure bets are correct, etc. Again, I am not pointing to California as the standard for all things poker, but by gum, they’ve got Limit Hold’em down to a science. The players become expert at putting out smooth stacks of three or four, then six or eight chips. And there’s nothing quite as cool as making a raise on the turn in a 4-8 structure game. You neatly cut four chips off the top of a twenty-chip stack and slide that sixteen-chip tower toward the center. That says “raise” like a 6’9” 260-pound bouncer says, “Show me your ID.” In fact, you have a perfect example of this right in the center of your room: your $40/$80 Limit Hold’em game. Played with those beautiful gray $10 chips, its the epitome of a well-structured Limit Hold’em game. For whatever reason, the regulars all buy in for three or four racks, like the twelve-point buck showing the others who’s boss of the forest. Man, I wanted to sit down in that game just so I could build a $4,000 gray castle too. Switch your $4/$8 game to $1 chips and watch the average pot size go up. I’ll bet on it.
 
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