Cash Game HELP- Cash Game (2) hands- What would you do? (1 Viewer)

[MacMac]

(I will tell you what I did in both hands after)
$1/2 NL Max buy in $200
Table has been pretty loose with people opening wide from all positions

Hand 1:
We're UTG and elect to limp with JT(normally i never limp but table has been erratic), 3 limpers behind, button makes it $10, We call, 2 from MP call, we're 5 ways to flop

Flop comes 98 6

We check, MP goes all in for $110, original raiser calls all in for $75, we have them both covered: Pot: $235 $110 for us to call
What do you do?

Hand 2
We're in the BB with 88, Cutoff make's it $20, Small blind calls, I call, UTG calls. 4 ways to the flop

Fop comes KJ4

SB checks, we check, original raiser checks

Turn comes a beautiful (8) KJ4

SB checks, we lead out for $15, Cutoff calls, SB folds

River is the (10) 8KJ4

I continue for $30, he jams for $102. Pot is now $242, it's $72 more to us
What do you do?

 

[detroitdad]

We check, MP goes all in for $110, original raiser calls all in for $75, we have them both covered: Pot: $235 $110 for us to call
What do you do?

Are you last to act? If so, I call.

I continue for $30, he jams for $102. Pot is now $242, it's $72 more to us
What do you do?

My chips beat his into the pot.

 

[Shaggy]

Hand 1: call. 8 outs, twice. ~32% to win. Getting more than 2:1 on our $110... it’s real close though.

Hand 2: I’m folding. Really seems like his flush draw came in. Unless... is villain very bluffy? Your bet was way too small on the turn. $15 into $80.

 

[Beakertwang]

Hand 1: you have 8 outs if one of the shovers doesn't have QQ, which has to be considered. Unless the two all-ins are likely to be shoving with draws, or something like AK or AQ, you're probably about 30%, and only have $10 invested. I'd let them duke it out, and save my money when the numbers are more in my favor.

Hand 2: I'm on the fence.

 

[MacMac]

Are you last to act? If so, I

Yes I would close the action out as I had them both covered (only had $10 invested in the pot at that time and was $110 to win $242)

Hand 1: call. 8 outs, twice. ~32% to win. Getting more than 2:1 on our $110... it’s real close though.

Hand 2: I’m folding. Really seems like his flush draw came in. Unless... is villain very bluffy? Your bet was way too small on the turn. $15 into $80.

My sizing on the turn was definitely way too small, I actually didn't see the flush draw at first and didn't start to think about what he was raising pre-flop with until we got to the river, I was basically set mining and blocked everything else out. He's a REG and plays pretty well for the most part, not too bluffy, but certainly has some bluffs in his range.

I had also been playing for 7 hours at this point and only had 20 min left in my pre determined timed session.

 

[detroitdad]

I read hand two's flop as having a full house. For some reason I thought there was two fours. I probably fold.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Hand 1 I probably find a find. Unless it is my first buy-in and feel like gambling a little.

Hand 2 I’m calling all day. Too many other hands besides a flush he could have that he thinks is a value bet raise. Plenty of 2 pair hands possible and maybe he is turning AK into a bluff, let’s just hope it isn’t AKdd!

 

[msuroo]

I don’t think you can really mess up hand 1, it’s right on the breakeven point. I probably call thinking that the backdoor flush draw + the possibility that hands like A9s are in villians’ ranges make it slightly profitable, but don’t hate a fold.

Hand two sucks. As has been noted, turn bet is too small on such a drawy board. I feel like against a competent player, any hand we beat is betting the flop. I probably fold and hate myself.

 

[ChaosRock]

@MacMac : on Hand 2, what's your thought process for betting $15 into an $80 pot on the turn and then $30 into a $110 pot on the river?

 

[MacMac]

@MacMac : on Hand 2, what's your thought process for betting $15 into an $80 pot on the turn and then $30 into a $110 pot on the river?

Honestly, it was not very well thought out, I wanted to keep him around and didn't put him on a very draw heavy hand. Was hoping he had non suited AK or maybe AJ, possibly KJ but don't think he's raising 10x preflop with KJ unless it's suited, but even then that doesn't make much sense. And then I wanted to give him a chance to bluff at the river. Regardless, I should have probably made it right around a 1/2 pot sized bet to charge the maximum if he was drawing.

The $30 on the river was for value cause I honestly thought he maybe had QQ, AK before he re-raised all in.

 

[Shaggy]

@MacMac : on Hand 2, what's your thought process for betting $15 into an $80 pot on the turn and then $30 into a $110 pot on the river?

If it was to induce a bluff... it may have worked perfectly.

 

[BukNaked36]

Hand 1

Doesn’t look like a T or a J is going to win it for you so you’ve got to drill one of your str8 outs. Odds are about right, just a question of how much variance you want today.

Hand 2

Getting over 3 to 1. Depends on your read of villain, but typically I think we’re good more than 25% of the time and it’s a (sigh) call.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Hand #1: There's an argument to be made to fold since your outs are in your opponents' ranges... but you have 8 outs twice not counting the backdoor spade draw. IMO when an OOP player open shoves into a PFR, it's usually because they've connected with the flop in a strong but vulnerable way. I fully expect them to turn over 9-7, 9-8, A-9, etc.

Since no read is available, Button having shoved over the top probably has an overpair to the flop or a set. QQ is basically the only hand you don't want to see, so while it's possible you're drawing a little thinner than you'd prefer I'd still call... you're closing the action with 2 cards to come on a chance to felt two opponents.

Just be sure to top-up if you miss

 

[Moxie Mike]

Hand 2: Call. Never fold sets.

 

[Frogzilla]

My feedback is that the most important decision points are not always the final decision point. I think some of the earlier spots are more interesting, specifically the preflop limp with JTs, preflop flat with 88, and the turn lead, and the river lead, and their respective sizings.

As asked:
Hand 1 you probably have low 30ish equity. With this action you’re going to be up against 2pair/sets frequently, which means dodging boats even when you hit, but you have backdoor spades. Gut says those probably wash and you’ve got a gamble. Clear fold in a tourney, cash game doesn’t matter. It’s so marginal with these pot odds. Go with the more fun option which is call.

Hand 2 you’re beat a lot by flushes. Call it off though getting 3.5:1. The diamond in our hand helps. You beat some 2p value combos and AA which I could see jamming for this size at some frequency in 1/2

 

[timinater]

This is the most egregious thing in this entire thread.

we lead out for $15

 

[MacMac]

So here's how they both played out:

Hand 1:
I elected to fold having only $10 invested and figuring I was up against a set or maybe even a straight. I did consider that had I the back door flush as well. I was close to calling it off but talked myself into just letting it go.

Original raiser all In for $110 was holding top 2 pair 9♥8♦ the other player who called the all in was holding 6♠6♦giving him bottom set.

Turn came 2♥ River came Q♣
So we would have gotten there but after knowing what they I had I think I was only 17%-20% favorite to win.

Hand 2:

preflop flat with 88, and the turn lead, and the river lead, and their respective sizings.

The table was extremely Aggro and I was in the BB, so I'm not sure if a 3 bet was called for, and then us having to act first in early position? Maybe I'm wrong though. Would like some more thoughts. 3 betting and 4 betting is something I need work on.

Yes, the $15 sizing on the turn was not very good and maybe there were only 3 players in the hand instead of 4 as mentioned, so the pot could have been $60? Even still that would only make it a 1/4 pot sized bet which is probably still too small.

Regardless, after I bet $30 and the other player raised all in on river, I tanked for about a full minute and was thinking about everything.
-He raised $20 pre-flop
-Checked flop on wet KJ4 board
-I took lead on turn, he flat called $15 on turn
-I bet out on River, he NOW takes the lead and Jams, so he's just not afraid of what I'm holding

In my experience, in these situations players usually don't Jam on the river unless they have it. But at the same time he could have been bluffing at it. I only really put him on 2 hands. A♦K♦, or some combination of non suited or suited AQ. Although, if he has the SUITED AK or AQ then I imagine he's betting that flop and or betting/raising turn which he did not, so I wasn't really worried about the flush. I don't think he's raising 10x pre with KJ, maybe AJ. So I can only really put him on some combination of AQ. If he had AA he's betting the flop when it's checked to him.

For $72 more I'm not folding the set, I elect to make the call expecting to see the worst, and he turns over AQ off for the rivered Straight.

My read was correct and I decided to pay him off to see it. But I should have been more aware/engaged as to what he had during the flop and turn and put him on a hand instead of waiting to figure it out on the river. I never put him on a hand till the end.

All in all it was a great session, just a couple of tough spots.
Any/All feedback is welcome positive or negative I'm a big boy I can handle it.

 

[MacMac]

My feedback is that the most important decision points are not always the final decision point. I think some of the earlier spots are more interesting, specifically the preflop limp with JTs

I wasn't sure about the JTsuited if I should be "Raising First In" UTG, but after checking my pre-flop RFI charts it's definitely a hand that should be raised. I never limp under the gun it's usually fold or raise, occasionally I will in tournaments with AA if we're deep to induce a raise and/or shove.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I wasn't sure about the JTsuited if I should be "Raising First In" UTG, but after checking my pre-flop RFI charts it's definitely a hand that should be raised. I never limp under the gun it's usually fold or raise, occasionally I will in tournaments with AA if we're deep to induce a raise and/or shove.

This goes against conventional advice, but I don't hate open limping UTG in LAG games with drawing-type starting hands. In this particular hand, if you'd opened, you'd still have gotten called in 3 places, and maybe 3-bet by the button. Now you're playing a large pot PF OOP against multiple opponents.

In this hand, assuming you make a c-bet on the flop you're still getting shoved and re-shoved on with basically the same decision.

 

[Frogzilla]

I didn’t mean to imply you made mistakes at those points...just that they are more difficult decisions.

FWIW, the straight draw against those specific hands you had 30% equity and needed 31% to be profitable on the call based on pot odds. Funny how close that is

 

[MacMac]

This goes against conventional advice, but I don't hate open limping UTG in LAG games with drawing-type starting hands. In this particular hand, if you'd opened, you'd still have gotten called in 3 places, and maybe 3-bet by the button. Now you're playing a large pot PF OOP against multiple opponents.

In this hand, assuming you make a c-bet on the flop you're still getting shoved and re-shoved on with basically the same decision.

Right, I agree with all of that. And in that scenario, I would have pot committed myself and made the call, and it would have indeed worked out ok this time, but who's to say the runout would be the same.

FWIW, the straight draw against those specific hands you had 30% equity and needed 31% to be profitable on the call based on pot odds. Funny how close that is

Can you explain this concept a bit more, Equity and profitability. It's something I always see and hear but don't know exactly what they mean. So is the 30% "equity" mean that's my % of hitting my draw, vs "profitability"the amount of return on my $? Like how do you get 31%. I Have a hard time figuring this out and need someone to simplify it for me.

 

[Frogzilla]

Can you explain this concept a bit more, Equity and profitability. It's something I always see and hear but don't know exactly what they mean. So is the 30% "equity" mean that's my % of hitting my draw, vs "profitability"the amount of return on my $? Like how do you get 31%. I Have a hard time figuring this out and need someone to simplify it for me.

Equity is basically how much your hand is worth / how much of the time you will win if you get to show down. In this specific instance, you need to hit either draw AND not boat up. Outs times 4% is pretty close for at the table math on the flop. (8 outs x 4 = 32%)

To calculate equity needed for pot odds, it’s your call divided by the total pot (including your call). $110 / $355 = 31%.

Why this is not profitable: if you fold you pay $0 to win $0. Fold is worth $0. If you call you pay $110 to win $107 (you have 30% equity of the $355 pot). Therefore you lose $3 by calling.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Right, I agree with all of that. And in that scenario, I would have pot committed myself and made the call, and it would have indeed worked out ok this time, but who's to say the runout would be the same.

In LAG games, winning pots post flop by moving your opponent off their hand with a c-bet is difficult to do. Against one opponent it's much more feasible, so in some games it makes sense, while in others limping pre is more acceptable.

My philosophy is that by limping in EP, I get relative position on any preflop aggressor on the flop, and if no one raises, playing a small pot OOP with a speculative hand isn't the worst thing in the world... it's not much different than taking a flop from one of the blinds. But in both scenarios, when you've smashed the flop you have all sorts of options and if you completely whiff, you can just muck.

***Edited to remove incorrect information.***

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

So here's how they both played out:

Hand 1:
I elected to fold having only $10 invested and figuring I was up against a set or maybe even a straight. I did consider that had I the back door flush as well. I was close to calling it off but talked myself into just letting it go.

Original raiser all In for $110 was holding top 2 pair 9♥8♦ the other player who called the all in was holding 6♠6♦giving him bottom set.

Turn came 2♥ River came Q♣
So we would have gotten there but after knowing what they I had I think I was only 17%-20% favorite to win.

Hand 2:

The table was extremely Aggro and I was in the BB, so I'm not sure if a 3 bet was called for, and then us having to act first in early position? Maybe I'm wrong though. Would like some more thoughts. 3 betting and 4 betting is something I need work on.

Yes, the $15 sizing on the turn was not very good and maybe there were only 3 players in the hand instead of 4 as mentioned, so the pot could have been $60? Even still that would only make it a 1/4 pot sized bet which is probably still too small.

Regardless, after I bet $30 and the other player raised all in on river, I tanked for about a full minute and was thinking about everything.
-He raised $20 pre-flop
-Checked flop on wet KJ4 board
-I took lead on turn, he flat called $15 on turn
-I bet out on River, he NOW takes the lead and Jams, so he's just not afraid of what I'm holding

In my experience, in these situations players usually don't Jam on the river unless they have it. But at the same time he could have been bluffing at it. I only really put him on 2 hands. A♦K♦, or some combination of non suited or suited AQ. Although, if he has the SUITED AK or AQ then I imagine he's betting that flop and or betting/raising turn which he did not, so I wasn't really worried about the flush. I don't think he's raising 10x pre with KJ, maybe AJ. So I can only really put him on some combination of AQ. If he had AA he's betting the flop when it's checked to him.

For $72 more I'm not folding the set, I elect to make the call expecting to see the worst, and he turns over AQ off for the rivered Straight.

My read was correct and I decided to pay him off to see it. But I should have been more aware/engaged as to what he had during the flop and turn and put him on a hand instead of waiting to figure it out on the river. I never put him on a hand till the end.

All in all it was a great session, just a couple of tough spots.
Any/All feedback is welcome positive or negative I'm a big boy I can handle it.

Hand one you actually have 30.2% equity. It's not the best spot, I guess it all depends on whether or not you like to gamble.

Unless I know the player I have a hard time calling hand 2. You're only beating bluffs, and what is he bluffing with at that point? Flushes got there, straights got there, if the player is competent he's not jamming for value with AA or AK on the river. Maybe he has KQ or QJ and is turning that into a bluff, but even those hands have showdown value. Also, you need to bet more on the turn, but you already know this.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

In LAG games, winning pots post flop by moving your opponent off their hand with a c-bet is difficult to do. Against one opponent it's much more feasible, so in some games it makes sense, while in others limping pre is more acceptable.

My philosophy is that by limping in EP, I get relative position on any preflop aggressor on the flop, and if no one raises, playing a small pot OOP with a speculative hand isn't the worst thing in the world... it's not much different than taking a flop from one of the blinds. But in both scenarios, when you've smashed the flop you have all sorts of options and if you completely whiff, you can just muck.



Your equity is the percentage of time you will win at showdown. Your pot odds need to better than the odds your hand will win in order to show a profit long-term... so in order to be profitable, you would either need a better hand (more likely to win), or there would need to be more money in the pot to justify a call based on pot odds alone. In this scenario, there would have needed to be $350 in the pot to justify calling off $110 to chase your draw ($110/$350=31%).

This alone doesn't mean you should fold in this spot though because you didn't know what your opponents held when you had to decide. Use this to plug in the various holdings in your opponents' ranges to see how your equity fluctuates.

There needs to be $240 in the pot not including the $110 OP is possibly calling with. 240 plus his 110 is 350. Regardless, it's a very close call.

 

[Moxie Mike]

To calculate equity needed for pot odds, it’s your call divided by the total pot (including your call). $110 / $355 = 31%.

Why this is not profitable: if you fold you pay $0 to win $0. Fold is worth $0. If you call you pay $110 to win $107 (you have 30% equity of the $355 pot). Therefore you lose $3 by calling.

I don't see it that way but I'm not 100% sure my thinking is correct. His pot odds are $110 to win $245, which is about ~47%. But his chances of winning are only 30%, which is 17% -EV.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

You're not thinking of it correctly. Think of it this way, say there are three players all with $10. If there is no dead money in the pot, player A goes all in for $10, and player B calls all in for 10, there is now $20 in the pot. If you feel like gambling with them, you can risk your $10 too, and of you do there will now be $30 in the pot, with each of you (not knowing each other's cards) having 1/3 chance or 33% equity to win.

For $10 to have positive equity to win the other $20, you only need to have an expected value of over 33.3%, not over 50%.

 

[Moxie Mike]

You're not thinking of it correctly. Think of it this way, say there are three players all with $10. If there is no dead money in the pot, player A goes all in for $10, and player B calls all in for 10, there is now $20 in the pot. If you feel like gambling with them, you can risk your $10 too, and of you do there will now be $30 in the pot, with each of you (not knowing each other's cards) having 1/3 chance or 33% equity to win.

For $10 to have positive equity to win the other $20, you only need to have an expected value of over 33.3%, not over 50%.

You're right. I'm thinking more in terms of limit poker.

 

[JustinInMN]

I think I am calling in both spots. I definitely think we underbet the turn in hand two. We should have charged the flush draws more and by making the pot bigger, we offer villian a lower spr to bluff on the river so he can't turn as many hands into a bluff.

 

[JustinInMN]

Okay just read the results. I still don't hate the call in hand one. Being against a set is the worst case scenario. You are drawing live enough against all other holdings to go for this one. Nice hit.

Yeah on hand two if you are being called by AQ in that spot on the turn, you have to size it up. Not that his call is necessarily correct. But if it he is making that mistake for 15, he might also be making it for 25-30.

But other than the turn on hand 2, I think the plays were fine.