Have Chinese cards mold replica sets gone too far? (28 Viewers)

Colquhoun said:
To be clear, you’re suggesting that someone that gets them as close as possible to the original is solely motivated to do so out of a desire to commit fraud?
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I keep telling myself "stop clicking on that damn thread" but I am a weak human... lol

No one is saying "the sole reason" but absolutely the possibility there of!

How many times do people list chips on eBay, Craigslist and other places... obvious cheap chips and say "I got these in Vegas but didn't have time to cash them in, if you are going out to LV you can buy them from me for half price and turn them.in yourself" I have seen it multiple times myself!

No one is saying that is the sole effort but by producing them you are giving someone the opportunity to run scams! Just like the WSOP rip offs the other day on Facebook market place!
aggie said:
edit: I will add that I stated, "the real risk of real fraud" not "the sole motivation is fraud" -- a very clear "gotcha" word salad -- but I'm still willing to play along.
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The other day when @Marius L spun my words I was literally shaking and so upset, wrote a long ass typical Ben rebuttal, but why? Again people will change words, spin them into another agenda... Don't stoop to that level I tell myself, but again I am weak...

For the record the only negative thing I ever said was "when the cards molds break in, they get slippery as hell!" I have never put a single person down for chips they own and what they can afford, ever! I spend tons of time directing new members to cheaper options and solutions as opposed to investing thousands of dollars into a hobby.

I did a huge write up on the Br Pro ceramic Super Poker World chips, a huge write up and Praise for Tina's new Hybrid chips (that I am obsessed with), I own sunfly hybrid ceramics and used them Saturday and everyone loved them! I own scrub donkey ceramics that came from Tina and still love them, played the cash set Saturday night and still awesome chips. I have absolutely NO issue with ABS slugged chips and made that very clear in my post!

Now what I meant...

If we had a "New China Club owners group" NO I don't think someone that has fakes "clones" whatever you want to call them belongs in that club... why?? You don't own "New China Club chips" you own fake copies of those chips.

That doesn't mean I am.putting ANYONE down, or making an elitist group that is bad for the hobby, I specifically said be proud of what you own, not calling anyone a lesser collector in any way shape or form! Simply that those that have put in the time and effort to have the real chips deserve their praise for doing so. Not that anyone is a piece of crap or doesn't belong in our hobby because they have clones.

We used to say "congratulations", hearts, Likes and general positive appreciation for those that put in the multiple year efforts and the grind for building the real thing! Is that really so wrong now? We still hit the like/love when someone gets a new set of DDLM ceramics, Tropicana Gemacos, absolutely nothing wrong with those chips if that is what you can afford! They are stepping stones on a chipping journey and for some may be the very last stone and what's wrong with that? If you are happy! Post them, Don't post them... doesn't matter as long as YOU LOVE YOUR CHIPS!
Colquhoun said:
. I see the manufacturer of copies as making the fraudulent act, and owning them as an ethical one.
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I disagree with this statement, again human nature as we saw the other day with the WSOP clones.. someone will represent them as the real thing and try to profit, also by knowingly owning "clones" they should be represented that way.

"Got the CM BTPs in play last night" absolutely zero issues!
"Finaly got my BTPs on the felt" sorry but in my eyes that ain't right. Misrepresentation of what you own is wrong... but who really cares "Ben's opinion" but I have never considered myself any type of Elitist, I don't really feel like I own anything spectacular, and I own several "entry level" chip sets and many I love and enjoy just as much as clay!

I don't mind cards molds (other than the slippery issues that occur after a several rounds of usage) but the direct copies, the TinaHC mold stuff. I don't see that as good for the hobby, just like fake Rolexes are not good for the watch community.

I saw a comment from @Highli99 about "benchmade knives" I went on eBay and started checking them out and found this
Screenshot_20221205-111934_eBay.jpg


It clearly states in the title "replication" but see the red at the top "2 sold in the last 24 hours" ... I get it, shame on them for spending $108 for a $4.99 cheap ass rip off that will barely cut butter... but should that "clone" have the Benchmade symbol on the blade?

Why is this crap allowed by eBay? Is it good for the knife community? I mean that is damn close to the cost of the original "real" knife... hard to argue that "some can't afford the real thing" what if they hand it to someone and claim it is the real thing because they got it as a gift and don't even know it is a fake! The next person says "dude this is a POS!" Is that not giving the "real" company a bad reputation? It's wrong and you damn well know it is... but I'm sure someone here would argue it!

I apologize if I ofended anyone with my previous response and hope this "Ben book" spelled out my feelings more clearly.

Fellow Chipper Ben
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Honest question from a noobie, how are you relating edge conditioning and the flattening of chips to creating copies of molds? I can't relate the two, restoration vs recreation?
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The two are related in being seen as being "bad for the hobby" by groups of people. Restoration is recreating a chip in a perceived better condition.


aggie said:
It's a good point, but I don't see how stealing a company's IP for the purpose of recreating & reselling is "tiny" compared to restoring or repurposing chips that already exist. Does relabeling create a similar grey area? Absolutely. But can we not walk and chew gum at the same time? Or is everything whataboutism at this point?
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The Intellectual Property ship has sailed and is a silly conversation (imo) to have at this point. We can see that in the galleries and classifieds. People are stealing IP daily to fill in holes or save some money. The only difference here is that the IP we are talking about is some version of GPI's IP. It doesn't matter who it is stolen from, we as a hobby are either cool with it or not. All evidence clearly states we are cool with it.

aggie said:
I guess I’m complicit in simply chasing what I want without regard for the hobby.
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As am I, I have flattened chips and have have over labeled some other chips. I am against milling and putting another casino's label on a chip (and haven't done it) but can't say I wouldn't do it because I'm selfish and real chips are damn expensive. However, I won't restore the edge of a chip... That's my personal line, and all I can say with 100% certainty.

aggie said:
That said, I guess the point of the thread keeps getting overlooked. The purpose isn’t to judge or rank grievances in our community, rather to discuss if there’s a point in replicas where too far is too far ... a line those in favor of replicas continue to avoid.
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I'm in favor in replicas (but I used to be adamantly against them), and yes there was a point where it went too far, but this is where we are now and something like a ceramic THC chip makes no difference whatsoever. Pandora's chip cabinet is open, and all the good and ugly is falling out.

aggie said:
The response, “Six years ago was too far” is valid and reasoned, but probably shouldn’t serve as justification for taking things even further. In other words, we don't piss on the couch just because someone else crapped on the rug.
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Right, but if the entire house is already trashed, will anyone notice the piss on the couch? So the question is, if we take a stand here are we going to clean the rest of the house?
 
ChipEnvy said:
The two are related in being seen as being "bad for the hobby" by groups of people. Restoration is recreating a chip in a perceived better condition.
However, I won't restore the edge of a chip... That's my personal line, and all I can say with 100% certainty.
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But you've got the chip? You're just paying to make it look nicer/fresher/feel better? I'm confused why that's the red line.

What about cleaning? Is cleaning a chip too far or is that also taboo because it hides any wear or gunk that's been had from my greasy palms? This hides the fact that they've been used by me, this erases history just like GA politicians keep warning me about! :ninja:
 
ChipEnvy said:
something like a ceramic THC chip makes no difference whatsoever. Pandora's chip cabinet is open, and all the good and ugly is falling out.
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I accept/appreciate/agree with everything you posted, except probably this.

Yes -- relabeling, reconditioning, NAGBs, etc. all deserve(d) some introspection, but at the end of the day are all extremely small niches within an already extremely small niche. The ethical aftermath of these topics is pretty much a PCF discussion.

Cards Mold replicas, on the other hand, are being printed in the (tens of) thousands and potential repercussions will likely extend far beyond this forum (e.g., "Hello I'm new and just bought these awesome Gulfport chips, can anyone give me some more information?"). I guess that's why I see them as unique issues.

By the way, thanks for the honest dialogue. I'm fully aware I've worn out my welcome in this thread. :)
 
Meddler2 said:
"he had TH&C molds installed in a press."
This is the interesting aspect.
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They could’ve easily been on loan. I wasn’t implying they were fraudulent - just pointing out that I didn’t think the mold itself was that well protected as IP potentially.
 
ekricket said:
I just had some dollars printed in China that look pretty good. Anyone want to sell me your cards mold sets for them?
You can tell all your friends they are real and I’ll give you extras. Your wallet will be bulging and you will impress your workmates every time you buy something in front of them. You can just take a $1 out and use it to light your cigarettes, it’s a hoot at parties.
Fake money is just as impressive as real money.
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What you’re proposing clearly violates a very significant federal law and would involve secret service investigation and almost undoubtedly prosecution.

You wouldn’t be collecting the dollars for your own use within your 4 walls.

It’s a really bad analogy.
 
bergs said:
What you’re proposing clearly violates a very significant federal law and would involve secret service investigation and almost undoubtedly prosecution.

You wouldn’t be collecting the dollars for your own use within your 4 walls.

It’s a really bad analogy.
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It’s the principal.

And there’s nothing wrong with having copies of US currency as long as you don’t pass them off as real. That’s the crime.

Edit: sorry I didn’t use perfect analogy’s like everyone else does. The imperfect ones I propose involve thinking about them some. My bad
 
Ben8257 said:
I disagree with this statement, again human nature as we saw the other day with the WSOP clones.. someone will represent them as the real thing and try to profit, also by knowingly owning "clones" they should be represented that way.
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I draw a line between someone that owns a set of clones, and someone that wants to misrepresent them as the original in a sale. I’m obviously against the latter.
 
bergs said:
They could’ve easily been on loan. I wasn’t implying they were fraudulent - just pointing out that I didn’t think the mold itself was that well protected as IP potentially.
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No I get it and didn't mean to imply anything. I'm a bit of a tinkerer too and I think it's interesting that the cups were installed for whatever reason.

Now if we move beyond any motions of IP and just think about what a modern CPC/THC chip would feel like. I have a set of Burt Co./C&J THC chips and they are great but have more of a plasticy feel than today's CPC and certainly nothing close in terms of that "clay" feel of today's GPI chips.

I have 3 sets of custom CPC/ASM chips but if I could have paid a small fee to have them produced to feel like a Paulson chip; I would have thought long and hard about it... irregardless of mold. not withstanding I understand that the manufacturing process (temps and PSI) is drastically different between GPI and CPC which results in the differing feel moreso than actual materials.
 
I don’t get the concern around these being resold on eBay. Scammers do this now with some closed casino chips, they represent China clay Dunes as real Dunes, etc….using “but what will happen on eBay” is a really bad lens to look at anything through. People will sell almost anything on eBay.

Now, proactively avoiding Tommy and GB coordinators from getting a letter from a property or GPI? That makes sense and I’d support not authorizing a THC mold or exact artwork. I still think it’s awfully unlikely someone confuses the two but I get wanting to avoid legal trouble.
 
Not to threadjack but somewhat relevant. Is that article that ASM/Jim did regarding the chip manufacturing still available anywhere? I think with all the noobs coming on board, it would be good information to have...ya know for that upcoming-never-before-asked "what's better CPC or Paulson" thread.
 
ekricket said:
It’s the principal.

And there’s nothing wrong with having copies of US currency as long as you don’t pass them off as real. That’s the crime.

Edit: sorry I didn’t use perfect analogy’s like everyone else does. The imperfect ones I propose involve thinking about them some. My bad
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Keep working at. We’re seeing real improvement :)
 
ChipEnvy said:
The Intellectual Property ship has sailed and is a silly conversation (imo) to have at this point. We can see that in the galleries and classifieds. People are stealing IP daily to fill in holes or save some money. The only difference here is that the IP we are talking about is some version of GPI's IP. It doesn't matter who it is stolen from, we as a hobby are either cool with it or not. All evidence clearly states we are cool with it.
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So since I’ve been bitching about relabels for years, I get to continue bitching about stolen IP here? Cool, I’ll take it!
Cards mold copies are bad.
A ceramic hats and cane knockoff would be bad.
 
bergs said:
To each their own but I just see ceramics as an entirely different kind of chip.

Put it tbis way, if someone copied my Truman’s House Paulsons exactly on ceramic, it wouldn’t bother me. It’d be kinda funny cuz it’s my dog, but whatever.

If someone made a clay exact copy, that would sorta piss me off. Equally weird, but I feel like it infringes on my set more now.

Same thing if I built a rare casino set of Paulsons.

I guess I can get behind not copying live casino chips on ceramic even though I think they’d never be able to get snuck into a game. I personally wouldn’t get a ceramic copy of a live chip - only ones I’m getting/have are the Arias (not an exact replica) and 3 sets from closed casinos (1 is for a friend back East, 1 is a set that isn’t reasonably obtainable but means a lot to me, and 1 that is a set I’ve always wanted and will spread for microstakes cash).
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What if someone got their hands on to some of your Truman's and relabeled them?
 
liftapint said:
If you don’t put ketchup on hotdogs, what the hell DO you put it on? I thought hotdogs were simply a vehicle for massive amounts of ketchup!!

<OK, it belongs on fries too>
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Who doesn't like lettuce on their sandwich?
 
ChipEnvy said:
The two are related in being seen as being "bad for the hobby" by groups of people. Restoration is recreating a chip in a perceived better condition.




The Intellectual Property ship has sailed and is a silly conversation (imo) to have at this point. We can see that in the galleries and classifieds. People are stealing IP daily to fill in holes or save some money. The only difference here is that the IP we are talking about is some version of GPI's IP. It doesn't matter who it is stolen from, we as a hobby are either cool with it or not. All evidence clearly states we are cool with it.



As am I, I have flattened chips and have have over labeled some other chips. I am against milling and putting another casino's label on a chip (and haven't done it) but can't say I wouldn't do it because I'm selfish and real chips are damn expensive. However, I won't restore the edge of a chip... That's my personal line, and all I can say with 100% certainty.



I'm in favor in replicas (but I used to be adamantly against them), and yes there was a point where it went too far, but this is where we are now and something like a ceramic THC chip makes no difference whatsoever. Pandora's chip cabinet is open, and all the good and ugly is falling out.



Right, but if the entire house is already trashed, will anyone notice the piss on the couch? So the question is, if we take a stand here are we going to clean the rest of the house?
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I'm bad for the hobby? Shiiiiittttttttt....
 
Don’t worry Benny, it’s real and fantastic also about 4x than the fake one - @Ben8257

2E03B1B2-C508-442B-9254-A269D1EA90F3.jpeg


Also if you've not listen to this you're in a for a treat - Hook and Loop

 

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