Hmm also Joe lets make the button bleed, what are we doing for rebuy starting stacksI still don't understand that lol
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Tourney Halloween "Zombie Resurrection" idea (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Blind Joe
- Start date
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I should have made that a bullet point as well.
- Size of the zombie stack
- Cost of the zombie rebuy
- number of zombies permitted
# of zombies to me is just a normal rebuy unlimited, just as if a real zombie apocalypse happens, the number will only grow. But size of rebuy and cost, I can see being discussed. @Poker Zombie @Blind Joe what are your thoughts
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
IMO the best options are:
- Rebuy free for starting stack, but become a zombie. It is a disadvantage, but it is also free. If there are unlimited zombies, everyone gets the free rebuy. This rebuy would not be time limited (all levels), but limited only to human players (i.e. only one free rebuy per player). Note that players turned into zombies in the late game would have <16 BB, and very late game turns would have even fewer to start. This method would play best for poor/recreational players that get felted early.
- Token rebuy ($5 in a $20 game) for starting stack + 20%-50% (exact amount needs math). The token rebuy pot goes the the last surviving human. This could play extremely well as humans start turning on other humans for what could be a bigger prize than first. If the final human rebuys, his token ($5) buy-in goes to first place. Like option 1, it would not have a time limit, but late game it becomes weaker, and may not be a cost-effective rebuy. Also limited to one per player.
- Full Rebuy for starting stack plus extra, to be determined by the size/frequency of the "bleed". This would have a limited rebuy period. There would be fewer zombies. While we have the benefit of analyzing the "size/frequency of the bleed" and it's relation to the rebuy stack, our players would have to make this calculation on the fly to determine if their rebuy is worthwhile. I predict someone will make the wrong decision and dislike how it turns out, so I like option 3 the least.
What about a 4th option of a rebuy/add token an option meaning half the buy in $25 gets you starting stack 10k but if you don't need to rebuy you can turn it in for a add on before 2nd break? If you do bust use the chip token to rebuy, and limit it to 1 rebuy with that option. If you want back in buy another full rebuy for $50
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
So in a $50 game...
- $25 is a starting stack, and not limited but you are a zombie.
- at 2nd break a token is worth a free add-on
- a token is a free rebuy (starting stack, but zombie?)
- $25 + token is a starting stack, and not limited but you are a zombie.
- at 2nd break a token is worth a free add-on
Game requires chips, an add-on token for everyone, and a zombie token for each zombie.
I would have to say that I would not pay 1/2 a buy-in to be a starting-stack zombie. This is gut reaction, no math involved - the way your players would have to decide. If it requires $25 and a token (so I cannot use the token to build my rebuy stack at the end of level 2), it becomes an even stronger no.
Ignoring the zombie bleed rules for a moment, I have never been a fan of rebuy/add token games. A player eliminated/rebuying is already (mathematically speaking) the worst player in the game. They spend money and fatten the pot and get a less than average stack, while the best players get even more chips after a waiting period. Yes, these games do happen (in home games, I've never seen one approved by a state gaming commission), so if your players already find it acceptable, it would work.
I've never tried to run one but have played in a few. I didn't care for it honestly. Just trying to throw ideas out possibly sparking a great idea. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the zombie getting a free rebuy. If I knocked you out, and you came back and won the tournament... Not sure how I'd feel.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I suspect the same way as any other tournament with rebuys. It happens. Just in this format the rebuy cost is zero. You also will get a rebuy for zero, so the player you KO'ed and you both had the same number of chips. He just held his longer.
In the $5 (or other token rebuy scenario), knocking a player out not only puts you closer to the money, but it also moves you closer to the "last surviving human" bonus, which could be sizable.
So that would be $5 rebuy essentially?
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Yep.
I would also be unopposed to a regular rebuy where you are not turned into a zombie (but limited to the rebuy period) and the $5 rebuy where you become a zombie.
I would word it something like this for our $20, single rebuy tournament:
Tonight we will have 2 rebuy options:
| Rebuy Type | Cost | Allowed |
|---|---|---|
Standard | $20 | 1 time per player, Only allowed during the first 4 levels May not be bought by a "zombie" |
Zombie | $5 Player becomes a "zombie" Zombies pay a Button Ante = the Small Blind | 1 time per player May be bought at any time |
- All Standard rebuys go to the prize pool.
- Zombie rebuys go to a bonus pool, which will be paid to the player that survives the longest without becoming a zombie.
- If a player rebuys and all the opponents are already zombies, their $5 rebuy will go to the event winner, and they will collect the rest of the bonus pool.
OP
OP
Blind Joe
Two Pair
When it comes to the rebuy I was thinking about making them all ⅔ of the buy in cost (in my case £10 rather than £15) for a full stack. The exception to this would be the first rebuy which would be the same ⅔ cost but with a small chip bonus. The rationale behind this is that I don't want everyone to go super nitty trying to avoid being the first zombie.
Edit: subsequent zombies would be turned by infection rather than death. Ie, a rebuy would not represent "death" but "healing". Getting beaten by a zombie at showdown would infect a human and turn him into a zombie.
Edit: subsequent zombies would be turned by infection rather than death. Ie, a rebuy would not represent "death" but "healing". Getting beaten by a zombie at showdown would infect a human and turn him into a zombie.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
That definitely has in-game implications with zombies being able to bluff more and take an aggressive stance vs mid stacks that wish to avoid the bleed.
I could also see being short stacked and jamming more, because once a zombie is on the loose, you risk being eliminated easier by the bleed. You would also have to reconsider any bet/call that would put you down in chips because being mid-short stack puts you at a extra level of risk.
You also need to have a ruling for a 1/2 knockout. i.e. Player A (a zombie) and Player B (non-zombie) both get a straight. Player C had trips (or less). Is Player C turned?
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I like the idea of a non-progressive zombie blind.
@Azcat said he didn't like putting all those extra chips on the table without a commensurate increase to the prize pool. So I suggested a random flip to see if you're a zombie.
After you're eliminated and announce your intent to rebuy, you have to random draw for how you come back (whether you're infected) -- unless you're knocked out by a zombie, then you must come back as a zombie.
You could either have 50/50 chips, with one being a normal rebuy and the other being a zombie rebuy. As more normal rebuys get selected, the chance of rebuying as a zombie increases.
Or you could make the zombie draw independentnof other draws. Cut the deck. Red card = zombie, black card = regular rebuy.
@Azcat said he didn't like putting all those extra chips on the table without a commensurate increase to the prize pool. So I suggested a random flip to see if you're a zombie.
After you're eliminated and announce your intent to rebuy, you have to random draw for how you come back (whether you're infected) -- unless you're knocked out by a zombie, then you must come back as a zombie.
You could either have 50/50 chips, with one being a normal rebuy and the other being a zombie rebuy. As more normal rebuys get selected, the chance of rebuying as a zombie increases.
Or you could make the zombie draw independentnof other draws. Cut the deck. Red card = zombie, black card = regular rebuy.
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Joe, you said, "I don't think a 500 ante would cause much of an issue for the colour up in a T10K. In my 10k structure they're only removed after L13 so you could just leave them on and distribute them amongst the zombies. You'd be expecting to finish not long after that anyway."
What I see is every ante is 5% of his starting chip stack. That doesn't include the blinds. I think that accomplishes it not being an advantage to be a zombie. I'm not sure why someone would pay for that. If they went card dead for 2 rounds of 10 players, they are gone, and of course with blinds too, it's less than that. If I were going to pay to rebuy, I'd want a decent chance to play a bit. That's just my thought on it.
What I see is every ante is 5% of his starting chip stack. That doesn't include the blinds. I think that accomplishes it not being an advantage to be a zombie. I'm not sure why someone would pay for that. If they went card dead for 2 rounds of 10 players, they are gone, and of course with blinds too, it's less than that. If I were going to pay to rebuy, I'd want a decent chance to play a bit. That's just my thought on it.
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Blind Joe
Two Pair
Well, this just got interesting
It seems like you're basing that on paying the ante every hand. At this point I think we've all abandoned that idea in favour of one ante per orbit for the reasons you've identified.
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Blind Joe
Two Pair
My gut reaction is to say Player C is turned. He has been beaten by both a human and a zombie at showdown so he has met the criteria of being "beaten by a zombie at showdown".
What's your opinion on the in game implications of my infection method then? Do you think the game is affected too much?
It isn't clear from your post if we are on the same page about the bleed, but for me this only affects zombies. Humans don't need to worry about their stacks bleeding; from their pov the only implication of the ante is that it increases the pre-flop pot once per orbit by 1BB, but not from their own chips. I don't see this as representing a threat of elimination to humans, but I might have missed something.
I agree that zombies will have extra bluffing power and I see that as partly offsetting the disadvantage of the bleed and representing their threat to humans, because if the human loses they will be turned and suffer the bleed.
Like I say above though, I don't want any changes to gameplay to be so pronounced that it no longer feels like poker. What do you think?
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Tru dat
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
It's difficult to calculate. Assuming an 8 player table, the zombie should win 1:8 hands. But how often does it go to a showdown? That's going to be player specific. Aggro vs nits, you rarely see a river. Passive vs Passive go to the river so often they ought to buy a boat. I really can't say how your group plays, and I don't have that kind of hard data to accurately say how it would play at my place.
But it will grow. Eventually someone will lose to a zombie, then 1:4 hands will be won by a zombie.
In every tournament, there is a point where the players that are hovering around starting chipstack will start to get swallowed by the blinds. There are a lot of all-in's at this point. These players will be bitten -there just isn't a choice when you are short stacked. Preflop jam or fold.
If this game were run multiple times, I could see games where everyone was turned into a zombie by the end of the rebuy period. I could also see games where the zombie gets killed off and nobody else becomes a zombie.
It's just too hard to accurately predict.
...and that's playing normally.
Zombies are going to want to see more hands go to showdown to see more stacks bled dry. Humans are going to want to win or fold before the showdown if their hand is questionable. Humans may wish to "gang up" on the zombies and vice-versa. Then again maybe none of these things will matter to your group, and they will continue to play normally.
The only example I have even remotely close to this was May 2014. We had a Cinco de Mayo game (if you are not familiar with the actual background of the holiday, Google it). Players could choose to be French with better weapons (+5% starting stack) or Mexican (could win the night's bonus of 1/2 a buy-in). The First Mexican that eliminated 2 French players would win the bonus. If no Mexicans eliminated 2 French players, the longest lasting Mexican would take the bonus.
You could anticipate Mexicans being more aggro vs French, but they weren't. I also didn't see French moving out of the way of the Mexicans. It looked like any other Saturday card game, but with a lot of flags.
In the end, the only way to know how this plays, is to do it. Not once, but many times, to account for variance. It will be truly uncharted territory.
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Post x times per blind level, then.
If your blind level is 20 minutes and you average two orbits per blind level, set a 10 minute clock. The hand after the alarm goes off, zombies post the zombie blind/ante. That way no one gets an unfair positional advantage every orbit.
What about if we revisit the suicide king theory of next hand after it hits board. I'm thinking even making that more of any red king hits the board the next hand any/all zombies post ante
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Blind Joe
Two Pair
I really need this positional advantage explained to me in the simplest terms possible. Who is the repeating player? Is it the zombie? Or someone on one side of the zombie? What's the advantage this player gains?
Joe position in poker is more important than the actual 2 cards in your hand. So the guy in position of the zombie who just bled his ante has a high % of always winning the pot. That would be unfair to the other players. We need it more randomized but not insanely difficult to remember/figure out
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Edit: posting the zombie blind the next hand is a better idea. If it's just posted as a mid hand penalty, there's no added aggressiveness by the zombies.
It's possible that being a zombie has no effect for several blind levels, which I'd be fine with. Also, in a multi-table tournament, the Suicide King could hit at different frequencies among different tables. I think that variance is acceptable, just like a zombie outbreak could be worse in North America than in Europe.
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The dead money ante would be posted before cards are even dealt so I'm not sure exactly what you mean by, even if he isn't in the hand. Being eliminated by an ante isn't a new concept, most tournaments have antes anyway.
@Blind Joe any progress on a flyer for the night of the living dead?
O ya we all are in agreement it would be the very next hand after king came up
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I was suggesting the zombie posts the blind/ante in the hand the suicide King hits, regardless of whether he's in the hand, rather than the next hand.
i.e., the zombie in seat 4 folds preflop. The suicide King hits on the turn. The zombie would be required to throw in a dead blind/ante.
But see my edit above why this isn't a good idea.
I think that would be a mess lol
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