Game of Thrones (HBO Series - NO BOOK SPOILERS) (6 Viewers)

Episode 1 & 2 were boring to me and pissed me off. With 6 episodes I was furious they wasted 33.3 percent of the season on setup/filler crap.

Agreed. It was like when Derek Jeter had his season-long farewell tour with the Yankees: Enough already, we get it, we’re nearing the end, now can we start the 1st inning please?

Very little going on in those episodes except for re-presenting all the characters, so the lowest common denominator of watchers could say “Oooh, there’s Jamie! Hey, there’s Sam! Oh, look, Daenerys has arrived! Ohh, Sansa doesn’t like her...” It was either a lot of hugging, or characters with longstanding beefs staring down each other, occasionally making snippy remarks, all while waiting for something to happen that viewers had already been awaiting for way too long.

Per above, I expect ep. 4 to be even worse, what with all the burying and grieving to get through. Maybe they’ll pleasantly surprise us and move straight on to the battle with Cersei.
 
Ned Stark didn't die heroically. Nor did those at the Red Wedding. Nor did the Prince of Dorne. They all died horrible deaths. That is what I've come to expect from this series
All the "senseless" character deaths were major pivot points in the story line. Any beloved character dying in the major battle needed to also advance the story line (which is almost over); or either a heroic death, or a funeral sequence, so we could get closure. Anything else would have been bad writing.

Cavalry, historically, doesn't charge into massed lines of infantry head-on. They are used as screening forces to hide troop movements, scouts to gather intel, flanking or rear attacks due to mobility and to mob up a retreating enemy
Name one time the Dothraki ever lost a battle. They charged into the "men in their metal suits" and concluded "They do not know how to fight". The Dothraki were invincible on horseback and would have been useless inside the castle walls. They used a tried and true strategy. They (and we) were stunned when the Dothraki lost so quickly. If you were not moved by the extinguishing lights, then you have room to complain. But I think as a story point, and the result it was perfect.

The Dothraki aren't a heavy cavalry force though. They're an extremely mobile, unarmored cavalry, similar to the Mongols. They aren't carrying lances, but use curved blades (which aren't good at cutting through armor or bone).
Again, they mowed through the Kings Guard. Armored men, in formation, and the best fighters in the country. Jamie commented that it was the most astonishing thing he had ever seen.

The biggest danger is having their own forces bunched up if the undead dragon comes a blasting, but they have the dragon advantage in the battle and should be able to keep it occupied and off their troops.
The dragons took on the army of the dead and lost one 1/3 their force. If they attempted to attack, in low visibility, the Night King would have easily killed the other two, especially with the NK now also having a dragon.

In fact the show runners pointed that out. Jon tried to stop Dany from taking the dragons up so soon. When Dany went anyway, Jon had to choose to stick with the plan or to stay by her side. Aunt or no, he still loves her.

As for "Bran knew" comments... Bran can see all of the past, though he has to look for it. He can also see now, by worging into creatures. I may have missed it, but I have seen nothing that concludes he sees the future.

As for the Night King... I don't know if his goal was ever conquest of Westeros or the world. The working theory at the firehouse this morning is that the NK and the 3-Eyed Raven are connected. 3-ER (who moves from living body to living body) and the NK go back to the time of the first people. Perhaps 3ER is responsible for creating the NK, and now the NK, who has been cursed to eternal unlife only wants a force to be amassed so he can stare 3ER in the eyes and finish him off for good - or at least be killed himself. That would mean the NK strategy of stepping in the front lines was sound - at least from his point of view.

Unfortunately, that theory cannot be verified until the prequel, if ever.
 
Agreed. It was like when Derek Jeter had his season-long farewell tour with the Yankees: Enough already, we get it, we’re nearing the end, now can we start the 1st inning please?

Very little going on in those episodes except for re-presenting all the characters, so the lowest common denominator of watchers could say “Oooh, there’s Jamie! Hey, there’s Sam! Oh, look, Daenerys has arrived! Ohh, Sansa doesn’t like her...” It was either a lot of hugging, or characters with longstanding beefs staring down each other, occasionally making snippy remarks, all while waiting for something to happen that viewers had already been awaiting for way too long.

Per above, I expect ep. 4 to be even worse, what with all the burying and grieving to get through. Maybe they’ll pleasantly surprise us and move straight on to the battle with Cersei.
Can't agree with that at all. What's the point in a story without character development.

Sure they could be better with their dialogue but at least they are making an effort.
 
Umm, the Dothraki got demolished, but their side actually won the battle.

The Dothraki were wiped out though, they didn't really contribute to the allies winning the battle. The allies actually lost the fighting, they just managed to find the off switch for the undead army and press it. It was lazy writing that allowed the allies to win, imo.
 
The Dothraki were wiped out though, they didn't really contribute to the allies winning the battle. The allies actually lost the fighting, they just managed to find the off switch for the undead army and press it. It was lazy writing that allowed the allies to win, imo.

Shouldn't there be a "USA USA USA" somewhere in your post?
 
Maybe it was because I was semi drunk and streaming on my computer, but the battle darkness and jostling that bothered some didn’t really bother me. I attributed it, as some have said, to the chaos and darkness that they experienced, so I sorta embraced it as the director’s intention to put us there too. The first time I noticed that type of disorienting cinematography in a fight was the opening battle of gladiator, with blurry shots, no clear focal point, and quick cuts, all with the somewhat peaceful/melancholy music, which didn’t “fit” what was happening on the screen. I like when they do what they can to convey an experience that few of us have ever or will ever know.
 
From the Twitterverse, the best scenes from this past episode...
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I get the reasoning behind 75% of the military decisions. I get not killing off 2/3 of the cast. I just dont get the artistic integrity that led to the terrible lighting decision.

I mean, I know why they did it - but it shouldn't have been done.
 
Name one time the Dothraki ever lost a battle. They charged into the "men in their metal suits" and concluded "They do not know how to fight". The Dothraki were invincible on horseback and would have been useless inside the castle walls. They used a tried and true strategy. They (and we) were stunned when the Dothraki lost so quickly. If you were not moved by the extinguishing lights, then you have room to complain. But I think as a story point, and the result it was perfect.

Again, they mowed through the Kings Guard. Armored men, in formation, and the best fighters in the country. Jamie commented that it was the most astonishing thing he had ever seen.
Preface - your points are mostly things from the show which are full of plot armor. A debate on tactics has to be separate from points based on what happened in the show or else it's impossible to discuss it objectively.

When you ask someone to name a battle the Dothraki lost, I guess you'd have to assume anytime two hordes faced off, one lost, one won. IF you're talking about Dany's Dothrakis it's just plot armor (every single battle they won besides against the goat herders something completely unrealistic happened that was the linchpin to their victory). Well what about the "battle" they slaughtered the Lannisters? I'd argue it's partially they caught them unawares in a caravan (unlikely if the Lannisters used scouts though plausible) but it's hard to say it wasn't mostly the dragons and plot armor. Think about the Battle of the Bastards and the Karstark's pikeman, this shows Westerosi armies were able to form Phalanx and had long pikes, a charge of light calvary against a line of pikeman would be a slaughter no matter how skilled the horseman were.

Winterfell - Obviously you shouldn't put calvary in a castle but I don't see a sound reason to charge 10,000 light horseman into an army of 100,000 zombies. Can't think of a single argument that that the charge would end in any other way than them getting slaughtered and turned into more zombies.

Since Jon and the rest knew the best/only chance to win would be to get to and kill the NK, they'd focus on how to get to him and not focus on defeating the zombie army one zombie at a time.

- Worst way to do this? Charge at the zombie horde in the dark, having no idea where the NK was at the time, and simply hope he put himself right in the front line. Per the show (and not surprisingly) he wasn't even on the battlefield at that time but flying above it and neither were any of the WW who were all in the way way way near the forrest behind the zombies.

- A more tactically sound strategy would be keeping the light calvary out of the battle at the start and only engage the zombies once a) they're fully engaged with the castle or b) there's a point where the NK is vulnerable - like when he fell of his dragon and had 0 zombies around him or when him and the other WW walked in seemingly all alone. Would the NK still have raised the new dead like he did with Jon? Sure but it's still the best use of light calvary and the most likely way to kill the NK and win the battle/war. Throwing them into a 10-1 battle all alone and into an enemy that will never turn and route was a very poor tactical use of them.

Sure it's a show and sure they did things the way they did for the sake of the plot/flow of the episode. That doesn't mean we still can't assess it from a tactically objective view based on the factual parameters we did know :).
 
In spite of my disagreement with a lot of the other complaints in this thread, I will agree that this episode was too damned dark.

I get that it was a cinematographic choice to help emphasize the chaos of fighting in the dark, but as a viewer I wanted to see what was happening.

I think I'm going to watch it again tomorrow night.
 
In spite of my disagreement with a lot of the other complaints in this thread, I will agree that this episode was too damned dark.

I get that it was a cinematographic choice to help emphasize the chaos of fighting in the dark, but as a viewer I wanted to see what was happening.

I think I'm going to watch it again tomorrow night.
CGI costs also likely played a roll in choosing it to be so dark you can’t see anythinf :LOL: :laugh:
 
A debate on tactics has to be separate from points based on what happened in the show or else it's impossible to discuss it objectively.
A debate on tactics has to be interwoven with points based on the show, otherwise the show becomes disingenuous and develops plot holes that people would bitch about.

The Dothraki always won using a full on charge. Sure, no earthly calvary has defeated pikemen, but Dothraki aren't from our world. Nor are dragons, or walking dead. You call it "plot armor" because you don't grasp that a mounted force could come out on top. I accept your premise on earth, but not on the world of Westeros (or whatever the whole of their planet is called). It was written into the story, over and over. To ignore it now would be terrible writing.

But if you want a real world example, General Custer never lost a cavalry charge, so he stopped sending out scouts.

Then he lost big-time. We learned from his mistakes. The Dothraki didn't have the advantage we have today, so they got to learn that tatic the hard way.
 
Winterfell - Obviously you shouldn't put calvary in a castle but I don't see a sound reason to charge 10,000 light horseman into an army of 100,000 zombies. Can't think of a single argument that that the charge would end in any other way than them getting slaughtered and turned into more zombies.
Argument #1: The undead army needed to be reduced before getting to the walls. They easily swarmed over the walls anyway, but if they hadn't taken some losses the swarm would have climbed every wall even faster.

Argument #2: nobody knew how long it took to raise the dead. Previously, a dead body was dead for days before it awoke. There was no reason to suspect the dead could just revive so quickly that it would join the same battle.

Really, there was no plan that Winterfell could take that wouldn't result in a total loss. That is why they wanted Cersei's army.

Put the Dothraki in the castle to be slaughtered on foot? Bad idea - and likely the Dothraki would never accept that plan.

Now if you want to argue catapult placement, fine. I have no idea what they were thinking. If you want to argue for battlefield illumination... well I'll argue that first. But Dothraki not doing the thing that their GOD tells them that they will do to win all battles...
 
Argument #2: nobody knew how long it took to raise the dead. Previously, a dead body was dead for days before it awoke. There was no reason to suspect the dead could just revive so quickly that it would join the same battle.
Agreed with argument 1, but if you recall Hardhome, NK reanimated the dead right away - minutes/hours after they were killed in battle. Jon knew this was possible.
 
Argument #1: The undead army needed to be reduced before getting to the walls. They easily swarmed over the walls anyway, but if they hadn't taken some losses the swarm would have climbed every wall even faster.

Argument #2: nobody knew how long it took to raise the dead. Previously, a dead body was dead for days before it awoke. There was no reason to suspect the dead could just revive so quickly that it would join the same battle.

Really, there was no plan that Winterfell could take that wouldn't result in a total loss. That is why they wanted Cersei's army.

Put the Dothraki in the castle to be slaughtered on foot? Bad idea - and likely the Dothraki would never accept that plan.

Now if you want to argue catapult placement, fine. I have no idea what they were thinking. If you want to argue for battlefield illumination... well I'll argue that first. But Dothraki not doing the thing that their GOD tells them that they will do to win all battles...
@Poker Zombie I'm normally in agreement with you on a lot of things, so this is not a dig at you, but I love me a good friendly debate, so he were go lol.

Granted the Dothraki have never really lost, but jon snow and Jorah are commanding this army and that charge respectively, and in spite of the Dothraki record, those two would understand the limitations of that force. I wager that every general on Westeros knows that man for man the Dothraki horseman are inferior to Westeros heavy cavalry. The Dothraki are savages that are known for their ferocity and sheer numbers. Mounted knights would crush their souls in a charge of equal numbers. Iagree that they would be best used in reserve to attack the flanks once they central engagement is underway.

#1 agreed, but burning the living shit out of them with multiple traps around the castle and peppering then with fire arrows and tar would have been far better.

#2 at the battle for hardhome, Jon snow witnessed the night king raise the dead with a quick motion of his arms. He would know how easily it's done now.

#3 agree, heavy losses were going to happen, no matter the effectiveness of the plan. There's was still stupid. I agree that the Dothraki should not have have been in the castle. They should have been hidden off in the woods somewhere away from Winterfell to attack at an opportune moment.

Anyway, still love you dude.
 
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I rewatched the episode again but this time I tweaked my TV video settings which did improve some of the darkness quite a bit which helped see just how vast the army of the NK was and other details missed.

"There is only one god, and His name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death: 'not today'." ―Syrio Forel ...
 
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