The Organic Growing Pains of the Home Game (3 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

The main thing I would say is ABreC -- Always Be reCruiting.

I thought the crew with whom I started out playing weekly 2-table $35 home tournaments would play together forever. (This was at another local venue -- eventually I inherited the game).

Two decades later, we play one table of 2/5 cash, twice a month -- and there are three of the original regs left.

We've lost players to heart attacks (2), leukemia, and another cancer. Dementia. Loss of eyesight. Bankruptcy took another down. Pregnancy yet another. Another moved across country. One player (plus his best buddy, a likely accomplice) got booted for cheating. A few people dropped off because they couldn't afford the stakes the others wanted. A few just lost interest in poker.

Also the pandemic created a gap of nearly two years, so the game had to be completely rebuilt after.

Raising the stakes and game quality was needed to keep up interest as people graduated to bigger incomes.

Plus about ten years ago, three casinos opened up, each 60-90 minutes away. Before that there were none closer than 3-4 hours away. Many casual home games in the region dried up as a result.

My roster of players remains around two dozen people, 5-6 of whom are quite regular, meaning they make about 75% of games. Then there are another 6-8 who make it a third to half of the time. The rest are occasionals. Lately attendance has become less of a struggle but I'm always hustling to get the game off.

Meanwhile the quality of the game is a million miles ahead of where we started, with dice chips in a basement. Now we have a real table. Leather chairs. Real chips. Real cards. A dealer. Good food and drink. Side tables. A bigscreen projector. Sound system. (We started out with dice chips in a basement.)

It was certainly easier to get two tables together for a cheap tournament when most players were in their 20s or 30s, with a few older guys... But that wasn't going to last. The game would have withered away and disappeared if I did not constantly recruit (and manage personalities, and upgrade the room, etc.).

Finding new players is haphazard -- my area is rural and sparsely populated; if someone plays poker seriously, has a decent bankroll, and lives nearby, I almost certainly know them already. New players come largely from among new residents, who eventually meet me or one of my regs. Or I meet them at a casino. Recently I brought back in a guy who used to play casually in our tourneys -- ran into him at Harbor Freight after losing touch a decade ago. Meanwhile my dealer hosts his own 1/3 game in a neighboring county, and we try to share players, or steer them to whichever game is better suited to the person.

Bottom line: If you think a game will just go on and on forever without changes to the format, the materials, and most of all the faces... Well it's possible. But my advice is keep looking for new blood.

 

[Kudos37]

I'm in this demographic so I can give you my personal view. Twice a month/week is very difficult. I aim to host a game once a month and even that takes a lot of planning to make sure I'm not scheduling on a date that my family needs.

My strategy has been to plan early. Set a date a month or two in advance so everyone has ample time to adjust their schedules. Communicate often.

Good luck with your game!

I find this to be the best, sometimes people are just non-committing

 

[Kudos37]

OP is doing very well. My players come from family and some friends. If a player brings a friend and it doesn't work, they usually don't ask to return. Everyone got the vibe. One guy brought his future son-in-law...once. Our group age is 22-70 and we have a great time, which is top priority. It has also brought extended family members closer in those younger ages and that's especially awesome to see.

I started out as OP, then got promoted at work. I hosted games whenever possible, but my players were playing elsewhere, learning and sharpening their skills. I've lost in my last three games and know it's mostly because they've improved and I haven't, and partly due to my distraction, which I'll address later. I'm glad they're improving because I'd like to increase stakes at some point and especially proud of my son, who was a trainwreck with no real concept of Hold 'em, but played a lot of online and really studied the game.

One drawback to hosting is that it can be a distraction from your own game. As stakes increase, and especially if you find "your" game slipping, don't be afraid to ask others to deal. Between being the bank, jumping up to make any TV changes, tend to the food, hit the head, deal with my dogs or whatever else pops up, it feels like poker is the last thing I'm focused on.

My daughter's boyfriend now handles the TV. I'm adding Venmo, to reduce time counting change, etc. And I'm going to run two decks now, so we see more hands, which should reduce the number of flops myself and other improvement players are seeing.

I do see myself getting distracted during the game a lot more. However, the counter is that I do feel like I end up watching more action. Whether I realize it not, I feel like I have a subconscious feel towards each player when it comes to making coin flip decisions. My instincts at my table are much better than in a real casino, haha.

 

[Kudos37]

I've never heard that 4 FOUR is too long.

The current player pool is mostly engineers that have to wake up somewhat early (5-6am). With the 3 hour cap, it helps then get home by 11 at the latest. I would love a good 4-5 hour session. I usually go for 6-8 when I visit cardrooms because the closest legal cash game it 4 hours away minimum.

 

[Kudos37]

You want to play around Monday night Football or Thursday night football. Your friends are going to be up watching football anyway so it’s a good excuse. Every other week if you want another pattern. Build up the camaraderie.

POKER NIGHT RANKINGS

Midwest Region
1. Thursday
2. Monday
3. Wednesday
4. Sunday
5. Tuesday
6. Friday
7. Saturday

This game used to be on a Wednesday, then swapped to Thursday. The group is pretty active so rec sports happen on thursday the most frequent. Now it's Monday. I feel like this has a ton of truth to it

 

[Kudos37]

This is honestly exactly where my home game is at currently, it’s cool to hear from someone in the same boat!

Reach out if you ever have any questions! Love to answer!

 

[Kudos37]

The main thing I would say is ABreC -- Always Be reCruiting.

I thought the crew with whom I started out playing weekly 2-table $35 home tournaments would play together forever. (This was at another local venue -- eventually I inherited the game).

Two decades later, we play one table of 2/5 cash, twice a month -- and there are three of the original regs left.

We've lost players to heart attacks (2), leukemia, and another cancer. Dementia. Loss of eyesight. Bankruptcy took another down. Pregnancy yet another. Another moved across country. One player (plus his best buddy, a likely accomplice) got booted for cheating. A few people dropped off because they couldn't afford the stakes the others wanted. A few just lost interest in poker.

Also the pandemic created a gap of nearly two years, so the game had to be completely rebuilt after.

Raising the stakes and game quality was needed to keep up interest as people graduated to bigger incomes.

Plus about ten years ago, three casinos opened up, each 60-90 minutes away. Before that there were none closer than 3-4 hours away. Many casual home games in the region dried up as a result.

My roster of players remains around two dozen people, 5-6 of whom are quite regular, meaning they make about 75% of games. Then there are another 6-8 who make it a third to half of the time. The rest are occasionals. Lately attendance has become less of a struggle but I'm always hustling to get the game off.

Meanwhile the quality of the game is a million miles ahead of where we started, with dice chips in a basement. Now we have a real table. Leather chairs. Real chips. Real cards. A dealer. Good food and drink. Side tables. A bigscreen projector. Sound system. (We started out with dice chips in a basement.)

It was certainly easier to get two tables together for a cheap tournament when most players were in their 20s or 30s, with a few older guys... But that wasn't going to last. The game would have withered away and disappeared if I did not constantly recruit (and manage personalities, and upgrade the room, etc.).

Finding new players is haphazard -- my area is rural and sparsely populated; if someomne plays poker seriously and lives nearby, I almost certainly know them already. New players come largely from new residents, who eventually meet me or one of my regs. Or I meet them at a casino. Recently I brought back a guy who used to play casually in our tourneys -- ran into him at Harbor Freight after losing touch a decade ago. Meanwhile my dealer hosts his own 1/3 game in a neighboring county, and we try to share players, or steer them to the game better suited to the person.

Bottom line: If you think a game will just go on and on forever without changes to the format, the materials, and most of all the faces... Well it's possible. But my advice is keep looking for new blood.

You should write a book. This was gold. Thanks for the post!

 

[joseywales]

I do see myself getting distracted during the game a lot more. However, the counter is that I do feel like I end up watching more action. Whether I realize it not, I feel like I have a subconscious feel towards each player when it comes to making coin flip decisions. My instincts at my table are much better than in a real casino, haha.

I'm the opposite. I went to the Bellagio in Vegas for a work trip. I just grabbed $300 and said win or lose, I'm sitting at a Hold 'em table. These...guys...don't...fold! And I was catching cards. I bet $150 to stop the Turn and was called. Turned two pair into a full house. I would turn mid pair into a set. It was nuts. At one point, I bought some appetizers to share with strangers because most of us were having so much fun. One guy wasn't thrilled, but whatever. Perhaps better, coworkers were walking by, seeing the nice stack of chips I had. I won $1,700, but the look on their faces was priceless.

Next day, I speak with a coworker from another department. Good guy. He plaid the $2/$3 and agreed, folks don't fold. He won't $3,500.

 

[Lester86]

Agreed that’s why we start are game no later than 8pm or else coming home the next morning lol

I think 4 hours is a good sweet spot.

 

[badbeat37]

I've never heard that 4 FOUR is too long.

Our shortest night has be 8 hrs…but my friends are absolute degenerates

 

[franicks]

The game I go to is about the same age range, we have a core group of 4-5 friends that have been playing together for almost a decade. But it seems like we struggle to add any long-term addition to the game outside the core group.

Friends and coworkers will show up here and there but everyone outside the core group tends to flake often. Do you think having a regular schedule, like "every second Friday" is important increasing the turnout for games over time? We tend to just wing it every week or two and invite people a few days before hand. I wonder if having a more set schedule is crucial to growing the game?

 

[SeanGecko]

The game I go to is about the same age range, we have a core group of 4-5 friends that have been playing together for almost a decade. But it seems like we struggle to add any long-term addition to the game outside the core group.

Friends and coworkers will show up here and there but everyone outside the core group tends to flake often. Do you think having a regular schedule, like "every second Friday" is important increasing the turnout for games over time? We tend to just wing it every week or two and invite people a few days before hand. I wonder if having a more set schedule is crucial to growing the game?

We try to set the next game near the end of that night's game. Keep inviting over and over again.

 

[Kudos37]

The game I go to is about the same age range, we have a core group of 4-5 friends that have been playing together for almost a decade. But it seems like we struggle to add any long-term addition to the game outside the core group.

Friends and coworkers will show up here and there but everyone outside the core group tends to flake often. Do you think having a regular schedule, like "every second Friday" is important increasing the turnout for games over time? We tend to just wing it every week or two and invite people a few days before hand. I wonder if having a more set schedule is crucial to growing the game?

I am going to try and set up a monthly tourney, so maybe it will always be the first friday of the month. It would be better than saturday because it is further from Mondays weekly game. Thanks for the Idea!

 

[TheYeti]

The game I go to is about the same age range, we have a core group of 4-5 friends that have been playing together for almost a decade. But it seems like we struggle to add any long-term addition to the game outside the core group.

Friends and coworkers will show up here and there but everyone outside the core group tends to flake often. Do you think having a regular schedule, like "every second Friday" is important increasing the turnout for games over time? We tend to just wing it every week or two and invite people a few days before hand. I wonder if having a more set schedule is crucial to growing the game?

In my experience from hosting for almost two decades, a set schedule is absolutely crucial. It let's your players plan well in advance. Ask your players which day/week of the month works best for them and go with the majority.

That being said, it is inevitable that you will need to break from the schedule a few times during the year due to holidays, vacations, illness, etc. and this can throw a wrench in the works. Just try to get back on schedule as soon as possible.

 

[Taghkanic]

You should write a book. This was gold. Thanks for the post!

Thanks! I am actually writing a book about poker (very, very slowly), which is tangentially related to my hosting experience...

The other thing I should mention about recruiting is that unfortunately you do have to be mindful that not every recruit is going to be a fit. Tryouts genuinely have to be tryouts — and if the person isn't right for your game, you don’t continue to invite them. Even if desperate.

A couple of examples:

(1) An older guy who was recommended by another host about an hour away. He recognized that we lived close to each other, and suggested I try him out.

The guy was nice enough, but (a) played like the classic Old Man Coffee — playing very few hands except premiums; (b) bought in short and did not top off, but instead would wait until his stack dwindled to nothing — then bought in *even shorter* than before, though I know he has plenty of spending money; (c) ate like he had not been fed in weeks — seriously like 3x what everyone else did. I gave him two tries and then after conferring with a couple of my more trusted regs agreed he was not a fit.

(2) A woman in her late 30s, met by my dealer at a casino. She played fairly tight, but not ridiculously so. Generally good company, got along with people. However: (a) She always brought along her younger brother, or at least we think he was her brother, who did not play but like the OMC above ate a ton and just sat off the side playing on his phone the whole time. Apparently her husband was worried about her playing poker at night with strangers. Anyway the brother was a nice enough guy, but it felt awkward and weird; (b) after a couple of months the woman disclosed that she was thinking of starting her own game.

This was actually exciting at first, as we could really use more home games in the region. She began asking tons of questions about cards and chips and tables and more. Then asked if she could hire my dealer for her game. Still, so far so good. I also started seeing her at the few other regular home games in the area which are still going, doing the same.

Finally the day came for her first game, and it was a disaster. Her garage space wasn't ready, or very presentable. She was frequently not in the room, cooking food for the game in her house, leaving the “brother” to handle rulings and cash etc., which he wasn't really equipped for.

She also stiffed my dealer (having picked his brain endlessly for a couple months) the night before, and instead hired someone under the table who is known as the worst dealer at our nearest casino. The players were all cribbed from other games she had been frequenting, plus the hosts of those games who felt obliged to check it out.

I did not go back after the first game. Comparing notes with others I knew who attended, everyone agreed that she launched prematurely and seemed to have been just scouting everyone else’s games for ideas and prospects. I gather the game died within a couple of months, and I have not seen her either at the casino nor other home games since.

Main lessons: With new players, you often don’t really know who you’re dealing with unless you have a lot of personal, non-poker history. You may realize quickly whether they are a fit or not, but sometimes it takes a while for people to show their true colors.

 

[Kudos37]

In my experience from hosting for almost two decades, a set schedule is absolutely crucial. It let's your players plan well in advance. Ask your players which day/week of the month works best for them and go with the majority.

That being said, it is inevitable that you will need to break from the schedule a few times during the year due to holidays, vacations, illness, etc. and this can throw a wrench in the works. Just try to get back on schedule as soon as possible.

Summer has always been the worst for my game. People have vacations and sports tourneys they play in. Weekend are non-existent.

 

[Kudos37]

Thanks! I am actually writing a book about poker (very, very slowly), which is tangentially related to my hosting experience...

The other thing I should mention about recruiting is that unfortunately you do have to be mindful that not every recruit is going to be a fit. Tryouts genuinely have to be tryouts — and if the person isn't right for your game, you don’t continue to invite them. Even if desperate.

A couple of examples:

(1) An older guy who was recommended by another host about an hour away. He recognized that we lived close to each other, and suggested I try him out.

The guy was nice enough, but (a) played like the classic Old Man Coffee — playing very few hands except premiums; (b) bought in short and did not top off, but instead would wait until his stack dwindled to nothing — then bought in *even shorter* than before, though I know he has plenty of spending money; (c) ate like he had not been fed in weeks — seriously like 3x what everyone else did. I gave him two tries and then after conferring with a couple of my more trusted regs agreed he was not a fit.

(2) A woman in her late 30s, met by my dealer at a casino. She played fairly tight, but not ridiculously so. Generally good company, got along with people. However: (a) She always brought along her younger brother, or at least we think he was her brother, who did not play but like the OMC above ate a ton and just sat off the side playing on his phone the whole time. Apparently her husband was worried about her playing poker at night with strangers. Anyway the brother was a nice enough guy, but it felt awkward and weird; (b) after a couple of months the woman disclosed that she was thinking of starting her own game.

This was actually exciting at first, as we could really use more home games in the region. She began asking tons of questions about cards and chips and tables and more. Then asked if she could hire my dealer for her game. Still, so far so good. I also started seeing her at the few other regular home games in the area which are still going, doing the same.

Finally the day came for her first game, and it was a disaster. Her garage space wasn't ready, or very presentable. She was frequently not in the room, cooking food for the game in her house, leaving the “brother” to handle rulings and cash etc., which he wasn't really equipped for.

She also stiffed my dealer (having picked his brain endlessly for a couple months) the night before, and instead hired someone under the table who is known as the worst dealer at our nearest casino. The players were all cribbed from other games she had been frequenting, plus the hosts of those games who felt obliged to check it out.

I did not go back after the first game. Comparing notes with others I knew who attended, everyone agreed that she launched prematurely and seemed to have been just scouting everyone else’s games for ideas and prospects. I gather the game died within a couple of months, and I have not seen her either at the casino nor other home games since.

Main lessons: With new players, you often don’t really know who you’re dealing with unless you have a lot of personal, non-poker history. You may realize quickly whether they are a fit or not, but sometimes it takes a while for people to show their true colors.

I have had some people who havent got an invite back. The OMC example resonates. They would come, min buy, lose it in first 30 min, bust out, and leave. This would leave the game 7-handed for the rest of the night. Just not making it a fun night where money is flowing.

 

[BleedingChips]

I do have a new question for the group:

What is the best way to schedule weekend tournaments/late cash games.? Unfortunately, most of my friends are married AND enjoy their wives/family's company, so they arent itching to "get away from the ole ball and chain"

I have been trying to get a $30ish buy in tournament going with cash afterwards. I have used the enticement of food, but nothing seems to be able to get the boys out twice that week. Any advice or thoughts would be majorly appreciated!

I agree with @RadicusScout on planning games less frequently and giving plenty of notice so guys can check with their wives.
It seems like 4-6 weeks is the sweet spot for my group that is mostly married and has kids.
When I tried to do back-to-back weekends, I had to cancel the 2nd game. It’s also simply not sustainable for me to host that much.

Planning 1-2 months ahead is the goal and I usually just look at the calendar to see what dates work and then put a survey out to the group to see which one is most popular. That’s the next poker date and sometimes seats fill up weeks before the game (others are a battle just to finalize 6-7 players the day of)

I use postermywall.com to design an invite and then use an app called Partiful to upload invite, send group messages, blast auto-reminders and get RSVPs. It makes a huge difference to have that tool instead of relying on text messages alone.

 

[CurtainCallCasino]

Oh man this is a gold mine! I'm researching to do my first hosting and you've given me a new goal.

I love that one of your takeaways is having players feel comfortable to go walk into a cardroom. Thats a huge win!

Besides just having a great time, having a educational element to build confidence could be awesome for anyone wanting it.

Cheers!

 

[Jers28]

Our shortest night has be 8 hrs…but my friends are absolute degenerates

Same. If we play less than 8 hours, something went wrong. We usually play 6pm until 2-4am, depending on how many show up. If we are full or not at the beginning, being the biggest factor. I have several players who work late or have date night, etc and show up around 10-10:30pm which is excellent fill in for the peeps who want to get to bed like a human or bust out early. I’m usually 1 of 3-4 players who start early and play until we can’t keep our eyes open.

We play $1/2, but with straddles under the gun and on the button, the game plays much larger. Start at $300 buy in, but play match the stacks, so the rebuys and late comers routinely buy in for $6-$800. I was worried playing $1/$2 (we used to just play tournaments, but scheduling them is so much harder than cash games where you can come and go as you please) would be too high of stakes and some people would possibly be blown out. Well, some have, to be sure. But, I don’t think it was the stakes. It was just that they realized the game was too tough for them.

Bomb pots follow any mono suited flop and whoever has the button picks the game, although double board PLO is the most common game called. If we aren’t getting a bomb pot organically, we will play one on the half hour anyway. The later it gets, the more bomb pots we play. And we start at $10 bomb pots, but by the end of the night, when we are down to 4-6 degenerates left, we will play as high as $100 bomb pots. And stacks are high enough they get pretty insane. I wouldn’t have imagined $4k+ pots when we changed to cash just this spring, that’s for sure.

The important part is constantly finding/recruiting players that want what you have. In my case, it’s nicer than any home game I’ve ever seen, it’s clean, family friendly (my wife deals and 14 year old son plays from start to finish most nights) and the players who are in over their heads financially, I urge to find another game and will host low stakes tournaments from time to time to accommodate/attract more players. As for family friendly, I mainly mean no one gets fucked up. I don’t care if they want to drink, but if they are clearly getting intoxicated, I’ll call them an uber. If I have to call a player an uber twice, they aren’t invited back. I’d bet maybe 6-12 beers get drank on an average night between the entire room.

I’m definitely an outlier on recruiting. I didn’t have a choice. My home game had died a slow death and I gave up hosting almost entirely for a decade. I’d host a small STT once a year with the old buddies for maybe $20-40 buy in. But, it was a bullshiting session that happened to have poker. Fun, but more like bingo than actual poker. Now it’s a poker game. I’m a member of several FB groups, have my own group page, a discord channel, etc. I had BRPro make me some business chips with my club name on it, my cell and our URL on the other side. I go to the closest casino (roughly 2 hours away) and bring a handful of chips with me. If I meet someone who is cool and we hit it off and they happen to live closer to my home town than the casino (which is probably half the clientele), I give them a chip and tell them to check us out. I go through basically an interview process and try to be as up front as possible so expectations are realistic.

I’ve had dozens of people come and go. The big talkers come and drop a grand once or twice and never come back. Every once in a while, someone gets drunk and I have to call them an uber. But, very rare and no one has ever lost their temper. I have 3-4 regs who I didn’t know at all six months ago and they are great friends now. We all have said it’s weird that it feels like we’ve known each other for years. But, of the original 9 of us, I thought six would stick for sure. I was wrong. It was 3. And not the three I’d imagined. But, those three have helped recruit, bring friends and family members routinely, etc. Sometimes, a couple of us will go play at the casino together with the sole purpose to recruit some new blood.

The closest casino charges a huge rake and all kinds of fees on top of the rake for tournaments, etc. So, no rake, no drive and nicer chips/tables/food etc has significant appeal. And I’m bias, but I think our dealers are better, too. They’re damn sure friendlier. I’m still picky. I was talking to a guy and handed him a chip while another guy was ease dropping. He eventually asked for a chip and I politely told him the game wasn’t for everyone. The guy was a dick all night to almost everyone, especially the dealers. No thank you.

One day soon I hope to have a large enough player base to not need to recruit, but the whole if you’re not growing you’re dying thing is very true and it’s way too hard starting over. I do think my days of needing to drive to Downstream are mostly behind me, though. Our player base is close to 50 now. Maybe our core six and whoever else is free and wanting a game on a particular night. But, with a large enough core, filling a table is easy. Some nights we can fill two without trying. Filling three is still a challenge for MTTs, but our game is primarily for fun. Myself and my core agree a single 8 handed table with a great group of degenerates is way more fun than MTTs, anyway. Because I do have side tables, I’ll tell the lower stakes guys they are welcome to play a smaller stake game if they like. There was a .50/$1 game with a $100 buy in a few weeks ago on a side table. When it broke, the winners mostly joined the main table.

I’ve rambled way too long and I apologize to anyone who stuck this out. My main take away is do what makes you the host and your family happy first. Find a couple friends who share those ideals and build to that. If you have a solid core and a larger pool, filling a table weekly or even by weekly becomes pretty easy fairly quickly. I only started hosting again in late April. And with school starting back up, family vacation season being over, etc my regs just became a lot more regular. I’ll have a waiting list to play before you know it.

 

[CurtainCallCasino]

I’ve rambled way too long and I apologize to anyone who stuck this out. My main take away is do what makes you the host and your family happy first. Find a couple friends who share those ideals and build to that. If you have a solid core and a larger pool, filling a table weekly or even by weekly becomes pretty easy fairly quickly. I only started hosting again in late April. And with school starting back up, family vacation season being over, etc my regs just became a lot more regular. I’ll have a waiting list to play before you know it.

This is a fantastic retrospective!
I'm looking to start up my first home game with friends and this right here is some juicy inspiration!

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Jers28]

This is a fantastic retrospective!
I'm looking to start up my first home game with friends and this right here is some juicy inspiration!

Thanks for sharing.

Oh good! I was pretty sure my rambling ass had just wasted a whole lot of everyone’s time! I nearly deleted the whole thing.