Tourney Final Table Structure Thoughts (1 Viewer)

karsus

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We have been running a League for four years now and are looking to evaluate the final table structure for the upcoming season.

The current approach is as follows:
  • Points accumulated throughout 12 monthly 'regular' season games
  • Top 10 of regular season points earners make the final table
  • Chip stack sizes are determined by point total (400 BB to the average point total, adjusted up or down based on that players actual points)
  • Final table pays out to the top 4
  • Players for the final table still buy in (all funds going directly to the prize pool) at 2x the normal monthly buyin
  • Blinds structure is 15 min levels with % increases between alternating between 33% and 25% increases
Looking at the last four years we have the following data points:
  • Disparity between biggest stack to smallest has typically had the smallest stack ~40% of the biggest stack
  • Smallest stack has been ~250 BB or greater; largest stack typically ranges around 500-600BB
  • In all but 1 year, largest stack was the overall winner; however, places 2-4 were distributed across the rest of the field.
  • While challenging, it is possible (and has happened once) where a player only made three of the twelve games and made the final table (in position 10)
So, what is prompting the review for next year?
  • We have players that join late season, and want them to feel that they have a valid chance at not just making the final table -- but also being competitive
  • There is a perception that if you are in slots 6-10 (typically 50% of big stack) that you don't have a chance (note that the data doesn't necessarily support that perception)
  • Potential issue of the best players being given an even greater advantage (typically the better players are the highest points earners and thus gain additional advantage over the weaker players at the final table)
We have been kicking around a couple of options going into next year
  1. Do nothing, keep it the same and try to address any perception concerns
  2. Use points to determine ranking, but then control the starting stack variance to a fixed percentage (smallest is 60-70% of big stack?)
  3. Use the existing points structure but leverage a 'smoothing' algorithm to reduce the variance in stack sizes
  4. Other thoughts??
Welcome any thoughts or insights!
 
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You could tighten the stacks a bit so there's less distance between the largest and smallest stack to give smaller stacks a better chance while still giving the top point getters an advantage.

You could drop the two lowest scores so only 10 weeks count. This gives folks a couple of off days, but still provides an advantage to players that play all 12.
 
That's a pretty wide range of stacks. I don't know what to offer you in terms of ideas though. When I did a league everyone at the final game got the same stack. And it was a free roll because we scraped 20% off of every buy in all year to fund the final table prize.

Maybe restructure it where everyone gets the same base stack, but issue bonuses for various accomplishments? Like 10% for being the highest points, 5% for not missing a game, 5% for season high hand, etc. whatever else you can come up with?

I do like the points to chips though as it already incentivizes attendance and rewards good play. Maybe you could just temper it a little by cutting the points to chips reward to some fractional multiplier, maybe 1/2. Like, if the highest points total is 60% more than the tenth highest, that player gets a 30% bonus and tenth gets the base stack.
 
Thank you both for your insight.. Current thought is to take a max range approach; maybe a max 40% or 50% between largest and smallest stacks and then calculate based on points between those numbers.

Need to figure out exactly how it would work yet, but the idea is that stacks are calculated as they are today (in case it is a tight grouping); however, if large and small stack is more than the max threshold, we then recalculate based on that threshold.

The hope is that it keeps it a bit more balanced, while still encouraging play (and points seeking) from all players.

Thoughts? If we did this opinion on what the threshold should be?
 
Thank you both for your insight.. Current thought is to take a max range approach; maybe a max 40% or 50% between largest and smallest stacks and then calculate based on points between those numbers.

Need to figure out exactly how it would work yet, but the idea is that stacks are calculated as they are today (in case it is a tight grouping); however, if large and small stack is more than the max threshold, we then recalculate based on that threshold.

The hope is that it keeps it a bit more balanced, while still encouraging play (and points seeking) from all players.

Thoughts? If we did this opinion on what the threshold should be?

Because the players have to buy into it, I don't think the disparity should be large. If I'm in 10th I'm not sure I want to buy in to the same game where other people are getting as much as 2.5x the chips as I am. If it were a free roll then whatever let's do this.

Guard rails seem like a good idea. Maybe 25% or 30% max spread? IDK.
 
Because the players have to buy into it, I don't think the disparity should be large. If I'm in 10th I'm not sure I want to buy in to the same game where other people are getting as much as 2.5x the chips as I am. If it were a free roll then whatever let's do this.

Guard rails seem like a good idea. Maybe 25% or 30% max spread? IDK.
Fair, but the buyin accounts for about 30% of the prize pool.. the remainder was accumulated throughout the season
 
Fair, but the buyin accounts for about 30% of the prize pool.. the remainder was accumulated throughout the season

Ah gotcha, I must have missed that part.

I still don't know the answer but there's more tolerance for disparity the more free roll it gets, IMO
 
Can someone explain to me the reason for having various stack sizes at the final table? Seriously. I am trying to incorporate a league to my group and am trying to figure out the advantage.

At first glance, I don't like that final table players don't start with even stacks, even if it is a freeroll.

When Jeopardy does a Tournament of Champions, they don't give Ken Jennings a boost in points. What is the advantage of doing that in an end of year poker tournament? It just seems to me it gives the best player more of a chance to win.
 
Can someone explain to me the reason for having various stack sizes at the final table? Seriously. I am trying to incorporate a league to my group and am trying to figure out the advantage.

At first glance, I don't like that final table players don't start with even stacks, even if it is a freeroll.

When Jeopardy does a Tournament of Champions, they don't give Ken Jenninings a boost in points. What is the advantage of doing that in an end of year poker tournament? It just seems to me it gives the best player more of a chance to win.
I haven't run a league, so I don't know from experience, but reading the posts from those who do, there are "season ending" tournaments that do exactly that, award a larger starting stack to the top finisher in the league.

The advantage would be a league structure that awards points for playing in the events. It encourages folks to play more often.

Honestly, I don't know. I do agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense to boost the better players, but I'll allow those who do this to chime in.
 
It's like some big sports leagues that give playoff advantages to the best teams (higher seeds get byes, home field, play the worst seeds, etc).

You want everyone to have a shot, but you want the best teams (players) to have an edge in the playoffs.

And it means every finish in every regular season game matters. If a player pulls far ahead or behind, they should still want to play hard to earn more final table chips.
 
Can someone explain to me the reason for having various stack sizes at the final table? Seriously. I am trying to incorporate a league to my group and am trying to figure out the advantage.

At first glance, I don't like that final table players don't start with even stacks, even if it is a freeroll.

When Jeopardy does a Tournament of Champions, they don't give Ken Jennings a boost in points. What is the advantage of doing that in an end of year poker tournament? It just seems to me it gives the best player more of a chance to win.
Because everyone at the final table always arrives with the chips they’ve gathered up to that point. And i dont feel like bagging chips at the end and signing for chips lol.

My season is points equals chips. So the better you do throughout the season, the bigger your stack will be at the final table for the championship. It’s just mirroring any long tournament, just lengthened over a year.

IMG_0287.png
 
Can someone explain to me the reason for having various stack sizes at the final table? Seriously. I am trying to incorporate a league to my group and am trying to figure out the advantage.

At first glance, I don't like that final table players don't start with even stacks, even if it is a freeroll.

When Jeopardy does a Tournament of Champions, they don't give Ken Jennings a boost in points. What is the advantage of doing that in an end of year poker tournament? It just seems to me it gives the best player more of a chance to win.

It can make sense. It makes the whole season matter, and every game matters, because there's an advantage to be had. It incentivizes good play and attendance each game.

But, in my opinion, the stakes have to go along. So if you rake some percent each game then the top performers freeroll for that raked kitty, it works. But if making the cut means I get nothing more than an invite and I gotta buy in, then it makes a lot less sense to me.
 
Can someone explain to me the reason for having various stack sizes at the final table? Seriously. I am trying to incorporate a league to my group and am trying to figure out the advantage.

At first glance, I don't like that final table players don't start with even stacks, even if it is a freeroll.

When Jeopardy does a Tournament of Champions, they don't give Ken Jennings a boost in points. What is the advantage of doing that in an end of year poker tournament? It just seems to me it gives the best player more of a chance to win.
We have various stack sizes at our championship game. It’s billed as a seeding system - finish the season first in points and you are rewarded with the largest starting stack (aka, the #1 seed). Finish the regular season 6th in points, you start the championship game with the sixth largest stack (aka the 6th seed). And so on…

Our championship game winner is our season champ, not the league’s highest point earner. So, effectively it’s our playoff.

Hope that makes sense.
 
We have various stack sizes at our championship game. It’s billed as a seeding system - finish the season first in points and you are rewarded with the largest starting stack (aka, the #1 seed). Finish the regular season 6th in points, you start the championship game with the sixth largest stack (aka the 6th seed). And so on…

Our championship game winner is our season champ, not the league’s highest point earner. So, effectively it’s our playoff.

Hope that makes sense.
Exactly
 
We have various stack sizes at our championship game. It’s billed as a seeding system - finish the season first in points and you are rewarded with the largest starting stack (aka, the #1 seed). Finish the regular season 6th in points, you start the championship game with the sixth largest stack (aka the 6th seed). And so on…

Our championship game winner is our season champ, not the league’s highest point earner. So, effectively it’s our playoff.

Hope that makes sense.
It does make sense. And I can see why some people do it, especially if the players are seasoned.

But I think for me I will make stacks even if I institute a TOC. My goal is to have the bottom third of TOC qualifiers be a few super green players. They'll already feel like there's a slim chance of them winning the TOC, but it will feel hopeless if they have a stack disadvantage.

I can see though how this is player specific. A good poker player who ranks 10/10 at the TOC may welcome the challenge to start with a lower stack.
 
I play in two leagues. One does relative stacks for the final game, but everyone in the league can play. The other starts everyone the same but only the top ten players play the final week.
 
I play in two leagues. One does relative stacks for the final game, but everyone in the league can play. The other starts everyone the same but only the top ten players play the final week.
Wow. I actually quite like this. If you're doing relative stacks, opening it up to all point earners seems a good strategy.
 
Our league's Championship Tournament is an 8+ hour free-roll event, funded by the nine monthly regular-season tournaments. The top eight players in season points are eligible to play, and their starting stacks are based on season-long performance (total points, wins, bounties won, and attendence, minus total re-buys).

Stacks typically range from 20k to 55k, historically averaging about 34k. In 17 seasons, the largest starting stack has won the Championship event only once (as has the smallest stack). Most winners have come from the fourth and second starting stack positions.
 
There are a lot of ways to do this. I'll mention 3 basic ways. However, what I would do first is poll your players and find out what they want.

I played in a league before starting one. The league seemed like a good idea. I asked various players what they liked and didn't like about it. But they also told me about other leagues they played in and what they liked and disliked about those. I got some surprises. Then I built my league to avoid those things a majority of players didn't like, and try to focus on the things they did like. My tournament at the time was going to draw from my own player list and that group's player list. I realize that wasn't a wide sample, but it's what I had.

Formats
TOC Format
-- A Tournament of Champions requires players to qualify to play based on some criteria. Usually this seems to be a "final table" where it is a single-table format. However, it could be multi-table. If for example, you wanted 2 tables of 10, you could use the top 20 qualifiers.

Challenges -- keeping players who are losing coming. Once they are out of the running, do they still have an incentive to come play? Then, will they want to play again the next season? If you want to keep it going over time, I think you must address these two issues.

Classic Format -- All members are eligible to participate. You need some way to sort if you have more wanting to play in it than you have spaces.

A variation is the open tournament. It's open to anyone who wants to come. One advantage of that is the opportunity to use it to recruit more people to the game.

Ultimately, there isn't a right or wrong on this. There are are things that are better or worse for your group. I polled players every year. I know of no way to find out without some form of polling, even if it is just informally talking to players. If you don't seem to be open to their ideas though, some people just won't tell you anything useful.

Entry Cost
Several ways to do this.
  • All players pay the same amount for the final game and it stands on its own.
  • All players pay the same amount for the final game but some of the prize money comes from prior events. Example: 10 league games, everyone pays $5 for the final event. Player A comes to all 10 and has prepaid $50. Player B comes to 5 and has prepaid $25. Player B makes up what he hasn't already paid to enter. Once players understood that, it made sense to them. Note: I personally felt bad for people who came and paid, but for whatever reason couldn't come to the final, so I stopped doing it.
  • Players pay different amounts based on some criteria. In talking to players prior to starting mine, that was easily the biggest complaint they had about other leagues. In the league I was in, there were 11 games. You had to come to 8 to be eligible. Players who came to 8 games only paid less that those who came to 9, 10, or 11. Players started looking at it like they should only come to 8. That hurt attendance. That's why I adjusted this, so everyone still had an incentive to come.
Starting Stacks
There are 2 ways to do this. One is everyone starts with the same stack and the other is your stack varies based on prior performance. The second strongest negative comments I got were about staggered stacks. Maybe I saw them as the second strongest negative because I personally don't like them. I'd like to think going in that I have the same chance as everyone else.

For a few years, I dealt for a bar league that was weekly. I'm leaving out some facts here, but they had a special event for the dealers. Made it sound like a big deal. I went, ordered food, and then found that stacks were based on how often you had dealt. They had games I think 4 nights a week, and some of those dealers dealt every night. I dealt 1x/week. Further, there were nights I had to work, so I'll say I dealt about 75% of the time on that one night. Of those nights I dealt, they were glad I showed up -- they seemed to need the dealers.

I found I had the smallest stack. Some stacks were 10x my stack, but the next smallest one was about 3x my stack. I realized quickly I was just cannon fodder. The blinds were structured in such a way that I would be short stacked by the second round. The first round lasted through 3 players, and the next round 4 players. By the third round, I was basically all-in or fold -- that desperately short stacked, and I was the BB. I raised all in, lost, and left -- never to return. I just dropped out. I was dealing to help them. I set aside that time to participate with the other dealers, but I have no realistic chance at all unless I could double up before the first orbit was over. That's not poker to me.

If you aren't going to start everyone equally, make sure that the shortest stacks have a viable chance. Some are more tolerant of stack variations than others, but if I were doing varied stacks, I'd not give the largest stack more than 20-25% more than the smallest stack. That's just me -- YMMV.

Points
The very biggest thing is don't use a linear structure. That is each place has the same spacing, whether it's 1 pt or 10 pts. I like every position gets the same percentage more, which is non-linear. I like something for coming -- we did 1 pt for attending. I like something based on the tournament size. I like something for those who did the best. In our case, only those who made the final table got more. I multiplied attendance by final position. I had 9 at the final table, here was the scoring I finally settled on for up to 27 players:

# PlrsAtt PtsFinishFin Pts
20.889126.844
30.925216.777
40.962310.486
51.00046.554
61.04054.096
71.08262.560
81.12571.600
91.17081.600
101.21791.600
111.265101.000
121.316101.000
131.369101.000
141.423101.000
151.480101.000
161.539101.000
171.601101.000
181.665101.000
191.732101.000
201.801101.000
211.873101.000
221.948101.000
232.026101.000
242.107101.000
252.191101.000
262.279101.000
272.370101.000

Attendance -- I used 5 as a base, and for every player over that, it went up by 1.04%. You could use 1.05%. I found that better than attendance pts x number of players where 2x players counted 2x as much.
Finish points -- Making the final table got 1.6x the attendance. Then I had 6 "in the money" positions, even though we didn't really pay 6 positions, and sometimes it was only paying 3.

I used a spreadsheet to calculate, so the decimals didn't bother me. If they bothered you, you could accomplish the same thing by multiplying everything by 1,000. That would generate huge numbers without decimals. You could also round off to whole numbers (27, 17, 10, 7, 4, 3, 2, 1) and get very similar results.

I liked this because it was simple. You could use a different multiplier than 1.6 and get the same basic results. You could also double the points for those who made the final table (FT) and start those FT points from that.

It accounts for attendance, # of players per tournament, and final finish. When we chopped the pot, I chopped the points as well. Some would just give all choppers the lowest points.

Hope this helps. Obviously there are a lot of ways you could do it that would be successful. :)
 
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