Edge spot progression "rules"? (1 Viewer)

TwoHomie

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Starting to look around for a frac and a 100 to fill my HSI set, and was curious what the consensus is for edge spot progression. Have found a some threads for a few years back, but wanted to see what the thinking is now.

Simpler to more complex?
Increasing number of spots?
Color progression?
Color pattern matching?

Think it'd be awesome to find a one-spot (114 or 112) blue frac, but then i've got no idea where to start for a primary 100...
 
You left one out: a single edge spot, served in perfume, floating in a man's hat.

I've grown to like single edge spots (spotted flamingo anyone?), but it might be better to consider a relabel instead of finding a chip ready to go. With that said, I'm the worst person to ask about edge spots since everyone on PCF seems to hate the progressions of my sets. I personally don't think the progression matters all that much, and instead, the chip/edge color is more important.

With that said, I suppose I prefer a progression that goes from simple to more complex, including overall number of spots.
 
Progression is so subjective, and honestly, I think it's an invention of chippers. How many casino racks actually have any kind of progressions? Not many, that I've noticed.
But if you're looking for opinions, I vote simpler to more complex (though, again, that's very subjective.)
 
I think the only real rule (for prudent security, but probably not an actual rule/law) is not repeating the exact same pattern on cash chips - so the eye in the sky can differentiate values and chips by the edges. Casinos do violate this sometimes too - Outpost.

Tournaments are more likely to have the same spot pattern because it looks nice and it doesn't matter for "security" purposes.
 
I think avoiding dirty stacks/confusing pots is the key consideration for home games, with the colors, widths and patterns of edgespots being key determinants of that (including how they interact with the base colors).

Wider spots I find tend to be the most potentially problematic. Ex: A narrow maroon spot may not create issues with the red or purple base color of another denom, unless it is relatively wide (quarter pie, say) ... then the potential for blending in with other denoms is higher.

In lower stakes cash games, I do tend to want to follow the convention of solid and/or hot colored fracs, paired with light $1 chips having a low impact spot pattern... And for the $5 chip to contrast pretty strongly with its neighbors. The chips most often in play are the ones I focus on. But then, I’m building a mixed RHC set right now that breaks these “rules.”

In tournaments the common frustration is black and purple base color chips being easily confused, but that’s often in part because they are solids.

And then there’s lighting to consider. Some chips which are easily distinguished under neon/cold light become muddled under incandescent/warm light.

Last thought: I think the weight and saturation of edge/base colors is often neglected, with the focus being mainly on hue and pattern. Having a couple colorblind players in my game made me more aware of needing variation on each level.
 
I've thought about this a lot for my mixed set, and I do agree 100% with do what you like. That being said i think once you start putting chips together you'll start to decide what 'rules' matter most to you. For me it was sticking with some combo of 4 edge spots going from simple to more complex. Doubling up on 4d14 doesnt bother me. If you're going mixed set it's hard to not have to compromise to some degree

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The purpose of edgespots for casinmostly security. The purpose of edgespots for your personal sets is mostly because they look cool. :)

For my cash sets, I like increasing complexity of spots with increasing value. I like to go from 2 or 4 spots, to 3 or 6, to 4 or 8, and back. I like single spots or double-adjacent on lower denoms, and triple or split spots on higher denoms. It makes the higher denom chips seem more desirable. As an added bonus, I have to buy fewer really expensive chips.

Here are a few examples:
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I suppose if I knew I would have an unlimited budget, I'd use whatever spots I wanted on all chips, and get shaped inlays, and perhaps some 44mm hundos!
Screen Shot 2020-09-30 at 1.33.53 PM.png



Of course, the only real rule is doowutchyalike.
 
While I agree that no one has any obligation to follow any design rules, this conventional wisdom that spots only exist for casino security or only to look cool... Well, I just can’t agree that it's that simple.

Sure, they have that function for casinos. Sure, they look cool (or don’t). But that's not the only reason they exist, and casino security is not the only reason to think about progressions in an analytical way.

If spots only existed for security, we'd only use solids at home. Edgespots were placed on/into chips well before video surveillance of poker rooms existed. Chips with spots have also been used in home games, social hall games, and other non-casino venues without security for ages, and still are.

Only a very few of us here work as dealers or floor managers or casino security; yet we discuss and often know the names of dozens of spot patterns. There's plenty of reasons having to do with gameplay beyond the needs of security, or just having a useful nomenclature for collectors.

Spots (and inlays, and molds) serve both a decorative and a usability function for players, not just the house. The intense focus and debates on this forum on spot patterns, colors, dirty stacks, and aesthetics (“Vote: What's the best purple chip?”) are testament to their importance beyond just security.

As a host, I feel it adds a lot to the game to provide players with chips that are not just pleasing to look at and handle, but also are easy to identify across a long table, or in a splashed pot, or in an opponent's stack. (Having two colorblind regulars in my game, I’ve also made decisions to help ensure that they make fewer chip ID errors.)

When someone pushes a bet in, or I’m calculating pot odds, or I’m trying to figure the effective stacks, any of the other sizing considerations in a hand, it is very useful (even essential) to be able to guesstimate amounts well, without having to ask or count manually. Each aspect of a chip — its colors, spots and even inlay shape— give the eyes specific cues which contribute to a correct visual estimate.

I suspect pretty much everyone here is good at looking at a river bet and that messy pot of chips in the middle, and doing a quick mental calculation—“that looks like about 2/3rds pot,” or whatever it is. Unless you’ve been keeping a close tally in your head of all the action, that ability is thanks to all those visual cues the chips are giving off. If one plays with chips whose colors and spots are too close, players end up asking for counts constantly.

Bigger picture: Every single thing used to organize a poker game has a design which contributes to smooth play... or detracts from it. Whether we notice it or not. That includes the chips, the cards, the seats, the tables, the lighting, even the HVAC and the sound systems. A “good“ room doesn’t have to be fancy, but it should be thought out.

Sorry to rant. But this is something I’ve thought a great deal about and actually have written the draft of the manuscript about. Industrial design — the design of mass produced products — is everywhere. From our steering wheels to our vacuum cleaners to our silverware to our sneakers, everything has been designed to work, or else (if neglected) it may not work.

So again: Though nobody is obligated to do edgespots any particular way, I think it deserves more attention and discussion beyond “do whatcha like” or “they only matter to casinos.” I think it’s obvious that PCFers value such knitty-gritty discussions... and its why I keep coming back.
 
@Taghkanic - that's a serious write-up! Very interesting to get that point of view. I had a question on it, though. It seems like a heavy reason to have the edge spots is for clear identification (outside of a casino setting as well). Aren't solids (assuming your colors are different) even easier to tell apart, and thus, would be easier to calculate splash pot values on? Even in organized stacks, solids must be as easy, if not easier, to pick out across the table.

I'm not refuting what you're saying, just trying to make sure understand your points :)
 
More information and data points can add to greater accuracy when done with thought behind it, or cause confusion if done badly.

Say you witnessed a hit-and-run accident. You only saw the perpetrator briefly. Would it be more helpful to the officer to say, the guy who took off was driving a blue car? Or, he was driving a royal blue car with a gold racing stripe?

Not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea.
 
Yes, saying that a blue chip hit my car is not as good as saying "a blue chip with gold and brown edge spots hit my car". Don't get me wrong; I think edge spots are a really cool way of mixing art and function. I just don't know if they add to the clarity of my game. Certainly, they can detract from it though, as you pointed out, by causing dirty stacks or even just visual confusion.

On a side note, if anyone's seen a Santa Ysabel $1 with license plate PCF 4EVUH, please let me know, I'd need a word with him about my bumper...
 
Another: My first set of real chips were old ASM solid hotstamps. It included among other colors both red and orange chips. They were different shades, but under warm light the colors could easily blend.

If the red chip had a narrow white spot, and the orange chip had a wide black spot, it would have been much harder to confuse them.

If they both had the same narrow white spot, then sure, the spots would not help. So coming up with a sound scheme is worthwhile.

As for why tourneys still tend to use solids... It seems to me more of a tradition at this point than anything else. Tourneys also have security issues.

Why, for that matter, do most casinos still use two color decks (red and black)? That’s just a leftover convention from a time when color printing was expensive. Adding a second color to a print job was twice the work; you had to clean and reink the press. Now, full color printing is the norm, so there’s no reason not to have four-color decks.
 
If the red chip had had a narrow white spot, and the orange chip had a wide black spot, it would be much harder to confuse them.
Complete agree in this case; when you have similar colors, edge spots are a necessity. But they can also still add to the confusion, so doing them right is very important. Sadly, this happens more often with ceramics I've found. Because many sets have identical rolling edge designs, if the base colors are too close, they can easily become mistaken for each other.

As for why tourneys still tend to use solids, It seems to me more of a tradition than anything else.
I wondered this as well. Not knocking solids though; they're hot!
 
I think avoiding dirty stacks/confusing pots is the key consideration for home games, with the colors, widths and patterns of edgespots being key determinants of that (including how they interact with the base colors).
Very good advice. I wound up having to remake all of my $25 chips because of a dirty stack issue.
 
I believe in utilizing good design principles in designing a custom/semi-custom poker chip set, but for me the edge spot pattern/progression is a distant 3rd when compared to my #1: a well-designed sticker/inlay with a clearly legible denomination, and #2: a base colour progression that provides reasonable contrast from chip to chip, whether it follows a convention (e.g. Nevada, Cali) or not.

I'm sure that some of the big casinos may actually take some pains to hire their own designers (rather than just rely on the vendor's designers) for their chips, but besides security (which is better addressed by RFID, UV ink, microdots, house mold, or anything else other than base/spot colours) they are more concerned about advertising their brand. I'm sure many more casinos just DGAF besides complying with state commission rules and paying the lowest price that satisfies their needs.
 
I'm sure that some of the big casinos may actually take some pains to hire their own designers (rather than just rely on the vendor's designers) for their chips, but besides security (which is better addressed by RFID, UV ink, microdots, house mold, or anything else other than base/spot colours) they are more concerned about advertising their brand. I'm sure many more casinos just DGAF besides complying with state commission rules and paying the lowest price that satisfies their needs.

Example of a casino clearly not thinking through usability issues:

When MGM Springfield opened, the felt on their poker room tables was almost the same shade of red as their $5 chips. When a pot contained lots of $5 chips, it made it surprisingly more difficult to “read” the pot’s size.

They actually did change the felts from red to gray about a year later. So it seemed someone noticed.

..........

Re: Labels: Across a table, people see the base color first; spots second; then *maybe* the inlay shape, if it is distinct enough from others. As for type, many players cannot read a label from a foot away, even in larger type, let alone 7-9 feet away in seat 2 when seat 8 makes a bet.
 
I love love love all those colors! Edge spot hecklers will most likely give you crap about the yellows being too complex and the blue being not complex enough.

However I think it looks great. The only thing I would say is the blue isn't my favorite chip just because of the white edge spots.
 
on this topic - i was thinking of using these chips for a fun colorful relabel project. Yellow 5s, green 25s, black 100s, blue 500s and pink 1ks. any thoughts?
View attachment 553101

Nope. Doesn’t follow “the rules”





Complete sarcasm just in case that wasn’t obvious
 
on this topic - i was thinking of using these chips for a fun colorful relabel project. Yellow 5s, green 25s, black 100s, blue 500s and pink 1ks. any thoughts?

Love the colors! To me I would prefer to have the empress 25 and FLV next to each other instead of splitting them with a different spot pattern. It will look awesome either way just my preference
 
i was trying to use the blue flvs chips cause I like them a lot. I guess I could move them to the 1s although we don’t use 1s a lot. I will play with the line up and upload more pics for more thoughts.
 

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