Did Will Kassouf violate WSOP tournament rules by his table talk/gestures here? (1 Viewer)

[dew4au]

I really liked the clock system. It made watching live, or rebroadcast, very entertaining. No long pauses in the tank. Everyone gets two time bank chips for each day. The commentators did mention a few times how crazy the clock was when a player was facing a huge decision and they had no more time bank chips.

 

[dew4au]

Good point they might get sued in poker court.

Music starts... " dun nuh, nuh.... This is poker court with judge Phil Hellmuth..."

 

[BGinGA]

I really liked the clock system. It made watching live, or rebroadcast, very entertaining. No long pauses in the tank. Everyone gets two time bank chips for each day. The commentators did mention a few times how crazy the clock was when a player was facing a huge decision and they had no more time bank chips.

The WPT Super High Roller Bowl event uses a similar system (40 second clock with five 60-second extensions). Should be invoked everywhere, imo.

 

[CHP TD]

he diddnt listen or respect the TD

he got less than he deserved.

do that at my place and it will be your last visit to my place.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I'm not a fan of the rules that are going in the direction of silencing banter at the table. He got into his opponents head and got her to fold the best hand. They're heads-up, she's the only one who has to make a decision and poker is about misdirection and causing your opponents to make a mistake.

I'd much rather sit at a table with him, someone who's enjoying himself, enjoying the game, than her. Someone who is clearly miserable and unfriendly and sucks the soul out of the game.

 

[AWenger]

So far as I can tell from a brief skim of the rules (full set here), the applicable provisions would be:

I just saw an article that cited rule 116:

116. Etiquette Violations: Repeated etiquette violations will result in the imposition of penalties assessed by the Tournament Staff. Examples include, but are not limited to, unnecessarily touching other participants’ cards or chips, body, or clothing, delay of the game, repeatedly acting out of turn, betting out of reach of the dealer, or excessive chatter. Excessive chatter includes, but is not limited to, talking or conversation that causes a disruption of participants who are in a hand.
​

The tournament floors/directors should carry the rules with them and know them well enough to show players which rule(s) was violated.

 

[jbutler]

I just saw an article that cited rule 116:

116. Etiquette Violations: Repeated etiquette violations will result in the imposition of penalties assessed by the Tournament Staff. Examples include, but are not limited to, unnecessarily touching other participants’ cards or chips, body, or clothing, delay of the game, repeatedly acting out of turn, betting out of reach of the dealer, or excessive chatter. Excessive chatter includes, but is not limited to, talking or conversation that causes a disruption of participants who are in a hand.
​

The tournament floors/directors should carry the rules with them and know them well enough to show players which rule(s) was violated.

@CdnBeerLover mentioned that earlier on page 1 of the thread. I disagree as to whether it should be applied here, he also pointed to rule 113 which I do think is applicable, though it's also arguable to a degree.

Agree entirely with your final point. Pathetic that Effel couldn't point immediately to the applicable rule(s).

 

[BGinGA]

No clear provision to issue a penalty in this case, either. "repeated etiquette violations' would be required. He should have been issued a warning.

 

[Poker Zombie]

We was given a warning, at 2:57 on the tape. Kassouf rambled on until 5:45. Effel then gave him a 1 round penalty and walked off, and that's just what we have on the film. The fact that cameras were over there, the fact that Effel was called, and the fact that someone called a clock on Matuson suggests that this went on waaaayyyyy too long.

 

[justsomedude]

He should have been issued a warning.

Based on the video, it looked like he was given repeated warnings, eventually was told a penalty would ensue if he spoke again, and still he chose to keep running his mouth.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[jbutler]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[dew4au]

We was given a warning, at 2:57 on the tape.

You know, on the tape is one of those phrases that millennials hear and immediately identify someone as an old fart. I catch myself saying that sometimes and can't help but think about when I was young and my parents would say "picture show", etc. It's pretty funny. /derail

Based on the video, it looked like he was given repeated warnings, eventually was told a penalty would ensue if he spoke again, and still he chose to keep running his mouth.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Yeah, I get that the reasoning behind the ruling may have not been sound, but he definitely was not listening to the warnings that were given.

 

[jbutler]

I think whether the warnings given were of the type contemplated by the rule is debatable. Being told "hey stop" isn't, imo, the issuance of a warning as contemplated by the rule. But I could nearly as easily argue the other side of that one.

The crucial point was @AWenger's above:

The tournament floors/directors should carry the rules with them and know them well enough to show players which rule(s) was violated.

If you've watched the subsequent episodes you've seen the absolutely shit performance of the TD and the floormen at the Rio. They actually told Kassouf at one point that he was not allowed to talk at all while his opponents were making decisions. Even Norman Chad said at the time, "Um, that's not the rule."

These people are fucking horrendous. The amount of rake that players pump into that series every year entitles them to at minimum competent staff. I get that waaaaay too many dealers are required to establish any kind of high bar there, but there is more than enough money to find capable floor people and for fuck's sake, Jack Effel should know the goddamn rules. No excuse whatsoever.

This particular set of interactions might not be the ones to hang our hats on if we're looking to get Effel booted - Kassouf is not exactly a sympathetic defendant - but it does expose clearly for those who care to look into it just how incompetent the staff, and particularly Effel, are.

 

[dkersey]

If there is a rule about "civility", then he clearly crossed that threshold. He talked about the cards in play, he talked incessently. He only ever stopped talking to take a breath. He just wasn't talking, he was talking at her. He kept making stupid irrelevant propositions to get her to not think about her hand. Its her move, give them a little room. I get "gamesmanship", but this was clearly Bulllying, Even after the Floor came over and gave him clear instructions, he violated those instructions, then he thought he was clever by doing hand gestures, which were even more distracting....more Bullying. I thought the 1 round of non-play penalty was a slap on the wrist. Actually, it probably gave him more energy to be worse upon his return. Taking 25% of stack would have been more appropriate, although I'm sure unprecedented.

Whether he was a good or bad player, he would not be invited back to my game.

 

[Max D]

In the end the TD has a lot of latitude when it comes to rules... The TDA rule 1 is:
1: Floor Decisions: The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.

 

[whforde]

I don't have much of a problem with him talking like he does personally. I welcome it when playing live, keeps things interesting and I think there is as much to be gained from listening to him as he can get from talking.

What I do have an issue with is him blatantly hamming it up for the cameras, taking forever to make even simple decisions OR TO EVEN LOOK AT HIS HOLE CARDS. I thought Cliff Josephy was going to shit a brick.

His table really turned on him in the latest episodes and really let him have it. You reap what you sow.

 

[jbutler]

I take it all back. Kassouf sucks massive dick. Kill him now.

 

[manamongkids]

I take it all back. Kassouf sucks massive dick. Kill him now.

This reason alone is why earbuds should be allowed at tv tables. The other 8 people at the table all put headphones in and boom, he starts talking to himself. Problem solved


My personal opinion is that he doesn't do this at every table like he claims but it trying to get as much tv time as possible.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

God he's such an ass

 

[manamongkids]

 

[SixSpeedFury]

It doesn't take 10 years to make a decision

 

[Tommy]

Like a boss!!!

 

[pokerplayingpisces]

I take it all back. Kassouf sucks massive dick. Kill him now.

He had me on tilt, just watching last night! I can't stand when action slows to crawl at a tourney.

 

[jbutler]

He had me on tilt, just watching last night! I can't stand when action slows to crawl at a tourney.

Even my wife stopped and watched for a minute and instantly knew that he was a manipulative little shit despite Jack Effel still looking like he should be running charity tournaments in the middle of Missouri.

 

[pokerplayingpisces]

Even my wife stopped and watched for a minute and instantly knew that he was a manipulative little shit despite Jack Effel still looking like he should be running charity tournaments in the middle of Missouri.

JE has looked horrible! For someone that runs the most publicized series of poker tournaments on the planet, he has been extremely inept. Maybe @BGinGA could take his job, and hook us up with a GB for those sweet ME chips!

 

[Wils]

hook us up with a GB for those sweet ME chips!

OK who do I need to sleep with?

 

[justsomedude]

Effel speaks about the Kassouf dust up...

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2016/10/jack-effel-william-kassouf-wsop-espn-interview-26106.htm

It's an interesting interview, with lots of good insight about warnings/discussions the TD and floor men had with Kassouf that were not televised. Sounds like he was made aware of his borderline behavior, and potential consequences, throughout the tournament.

 

[Poker Zombie]

This validates what I said earlier...

ver because she requested the TD for taunting? Videos often make authority figures look bad because we might not be seeing everything.

Kassouf was out of control for Effel to move into play. The penalty was pretty minor, but it let Kassouf know that the warnings were serious. I also like that Effel knew that Kassouf was pushing other players buttons to get himself taunted. Kassouf is the problem. Warn, but don't penalize the players that were provoked.