Did I make the right call here as a dealer? (3 Viewers)

[casinochipper22]

I assume you are not referring to situations where you kill a losing hand at showdown.

ya, just answering the question above. dealers are not supposed to turn cards face up. killing hands is fine. I even kill winning hands sometimes and then all the players yell at me. lol.

 

[casinochipper22]

I was playing in a tournament and a dedicated dealer. On a hand I wasn't in, this happened heads up between two players.

PLAYER 1 (Pam) was BB. Older woman. A very recreational player. But kind of serious type. The kind of person who doesn't know what she doesn't know.
PLAYER 2 (Stellan) was on the button. He is a good player.

If I remember correctly, there was button limps and BB calls pre-flop, and they check down to the river. But the river is where the action is.

Community cards are K82 / J / 8

Blinds are 600. On the river, Pam bets T300. I tell her she has to put out 600, but before she fully understands, Stellan declares a call.

I try to tell Pam why she needs to complete her bet. She does and... just holds onto her cards. She is the last aggressor and should show, but she just sits there.

I am about to say "Show me a winner" when Stellan decides to just turn over his hand. He has K6o.

Pam's still sitting there like a deer in headlights. I give her about 10 seconds or so, and she is just silent, looking at Stellan's hand.

I finally say, "Can you beat his King?" To which she says, "No".

Thinking the hand is over, I start to rake in the cards, and Stellan starts to collect hit pot. At this point Pam goes, "What are you doing? I have three 8s!" She turns over her hand with 10/8o.

I tell her I am sorry, but she essentially verbally mucked her cards. The flop and Stellan's cards are still visible, but in a pile now. I tell her she mucked her hand verbally, that I asked her if she could beat his King. She says, "Yea, that because I couldn't beat a king. I had three 8's though!" (I am as confused as you are).

I feel bad for her, but I hold to my position. She is incredibly angry and upset though saying that I raked in the cards far too quickly before she had a chance to show. I tell her in that scenario she just needs to turn her cards over.

Did I make the right call? Is a "verbal muck" a thing? Should I have waited for her to push her cards forward? Does "Cards speak" apply if you can see the cards technically, but they're in the process of being raked together?

unfortunately she is still holding a live hand. You should never push a pot until you at least see all the cards on the table. even if the nuts are tabled, if someone is still holding on to their hand, you shouldn't push the pot.

 

[KHarp1]

I was still mulling this "fold at showdown" conversation and some of you all didn't really care for my user of Google AI as a source, so I dig a little deeper and consulted someone that's been around for many years and had seen it all, and, come to find out you guys were wrong. I hate to say it that way, but, there's really no other way to say it. I have written documentation to back up my findings.

 

[Baxit]

OP : Pam looking confused, just ask her to show or dismiss her cards. Then try to retrieve her hand : if possible with no doubt = cards speak, if not = cards dead. It's like the drunken guy saying he lost, but showing a winning hand : cards speak and win despite the guy.

 

[ekricket]

I was just playing in a casino and a player, facing a 2300 bet, counts out his chips. The dealer immediately grabs the chips drags them into the pot and puts the turn out. The player says “what are you doing, I was just counting chips and hadn’t called”. There is a betting line in the table, and it’s been enforced periodically, and the players chips clearly weren’t across it.
The dealer said sorry and continued the hand. They called the floor and decided to let the player decide what he wanted to do. He let the card stand and he lost the hand. I knew what to do but I wasn’t getting involved in cruise ship poker rules.
Plus I was the guy who was all in and I won.

 

[Frogzilla]

I was just playing in a casino and a player, facing a 2300 bet, counts out his chips. The dealer immediately grabs the chips drags them into the pot and puts the turn out. The player says “what are you doing, I was just counting chips and hadn’t called”. There is a betting line in the table, and it’s been enforced periodically, and the players chips clearly weren’t across it.
The dealer said sorry and continued the hand. They called the floor and decided to let the player decide what he wanted to do. He let the card stand and he lost the hand. I knew what to do but I wasn’t getting involved in cruise ship poker rules.
Plus I was the guy who was all in and I won.

Whoa, they let him decide whether he wanted to call after seeing the turn? If the turn was premature (and as described, sounds like it) he should still get his action, but the premature turn should be shuffled into the stub new turn dealt.

Edit: I really hope this is a tournament or foreign currency and you didn’t let yourself get this bad of a deal without protest in a 6k+ usd pot. And, most importantly, glad the deck had your back.

 

[dizzyChipper]

Whoa, they let him decide whether he wanted to call after seeing the turn? If the turn was premature (and as described, sounds like it) he should still get his action, but the premature turn should be shuffled into the stub new turn dealt.

Yeah. What a freeroll to let him see the card and then decide.

Glad you won the hand. Not saying guy was angling but floor did a bad job.

 

[cfletch]

Yea, I take ownership of the second part. I felt pressure to keep the game moving and looks like I acted pre-maturely. Just when she said, "No" it felt pretty clear cut "I can't beat him" and therefore a muck.

Looks like consensus is I was in the wrong here. Will definitely keep that in mind.

Good spot for learning. This is why you always hold on to your cards til you're done, and they are dead when they're physically mucked. A lot going on with the other guy making that sloppy call/show. He played out of turn. If it were me there, clearheaded, I'd stop everything, leave his cards out, and clarify the minimum bet slowly. Making sure both players put their bets in. She didn't understand the minimum, but that's on her. He played too quick, there's nothing you can do to reverse that. The only thing you could do that would maybe be more fair is offer her the opportunity to retract her bet, but that could be seen as angling as his cards are out (though that's his fault for not being slow enough). Confusing because of several factors. But hands must always be physically mucked before they're dead as I understand. Good on you for owning and learning and being responsible!

 

[JustinInMN]

To be fair though, he was just trying to speed things up. Just chalk it up under experience and you learned how to handle showdowns in the future. Pretty much all the rules at this points are made to avoid weird or tough situations, based on someone's experience.

I understand that. The fastest prompt is just to tell her "you have been called, show or muck.". No other details necessary.

That would have lead to the fastest outcome.

 

[justsomedude]

Did I make the right call?

No.

Is a "verbal muck" a thing?

No.

Does "Cards speak" apply if you can see the cards technically, but they're in the process of being raked together?

Yes, "cards speak" until they are turned face down AND mixed into the muck AND no longer identifiable.

I've seen cards "folded" face down towards the muck... the player verbally announce his hand... other players inform him he had the winning hand... and that player ultimately declared the winner since the cards were still identifiable and separate from the muck.

Pam got screwed.

 

[WedgeRock]

Pam got screwed.