deep online home game $1/1 Hold'em

detroitdad

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JustinInMN

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If the plan is too check call. Shouldn't we just lead out?

No. We always get to showdown if we check-call, we won't get to showdown if we bet-fold, but we lose the same amount of money.

Check/fold. But then remember I wasn't in the hand to this point anyhow....lol

Agreed on the second part.

Okay, on to my thoughts, just gross. I think the check is automatic, but you are going to have to trust your read after that. If he checks behind then you are glad to get the showdown free.

Betting is obviously bad unless you really think he has KK/AA and can't let it go. That's really all you could expect to get for value.

I think I am willing to forgo that value to avoid getting raised by a likely flush.

So check, hope he checks behind, if not, evaluate bet and your read.
 

ChaosRock

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Only draw that missed might be a sticky 66. T9 got there and hearts got there. Tough card. Now we can beat 66, TT, KK and AA only it seems. Tough to call turn with a naked flush draw though, unless the hand has the Qh, even AKhh is a tough call since overs might not be good. So the question is, if Villain has KK or AA, is he calling a river bet? Readless, I'd say no but in some games, people feel great about KK and AA even on a check-raise pot where all the draws got there. So I'm leaning towards not betting for value.

Now, should we represent the hearts? My original plan was to go for it on a bet/fold line. Now, given the $200 turn bet, I don't think stacks are larger enough for a bet/fold. Is Villain laying down a straight or a set if we bet the river? Based on his description, probably not. Not gonna letdown an okay flush as well since he called the turn bet. So buffing also seems out of the options.

So checking here.

Now, if bet into, should Hero call? I tend to lean towards "no". There isn't any hands Villain bets for value that Hero beats. If there were a few, maybe a call is warranted. All we can do is beat a bluff. In other words, our hand became only a bluff catcher. Since there aren't many missed draws as I see it, I vote check/puke-fold.

Edit: Possible bluffs might be AA and KK but not likely at this level Villain can pull this off I don't think. Likely he checks behind with those? So we're down to Villain bluffing 66? I still think c/f.
 
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Legend5555

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Missed this post entirely somehow.

Preflop:
Not surprising to see giant opens in "live" games, especially when stacks are very deep. IP this is a good candidate to 3bet occasionally for balance. There is a ton of dead money out there to win. But seeing as we are OOP and closing the action getting 5 to 1 with what will be an SPR of like 15, pretty slam dunk call.

Flop:
Balancing a donk range is just hard in general. So its not very wrong to just never do it. And given that the raiser is next to act, easy check. If raiser checks then anyone that acts after him is giving away a lot of info about their hand, as they weren't making an auto check to the raiser. If villain bets, it REALLY defines his hand a lot, as leading here into 5 people is not something he can do on this board that lightly.

After villain bets on flop, he is saying he has an overpair, nut draw, or a set. And honestly, betting an overpair here is probably wrong. This board his calling hands so hard that being something like AA when OOP on the field can easily be lighting money on fire generally. Though in this game, who knows.

Regardless, we block 2 sets, villain is saying they have a strong hand, and we have top 2. Pretty mandatory raise. I'd want to size such that I get bet 3/4 pot turn and then 3/4 or less on river. So like 125-140 total on flop.

Note that this deep, if there was one or more calls in the field, I don't think raising is a great idea. It's unlikely a raise gets people off hands on this board. It's actually a pretty good idea in that instance to just call and hope we get a blank on turn so our equity increases before we just pile money in.

Turn
Pretty safe card. Bet around 2/3 to set up a less than pot sized river jam.

River
:wtf:
So now there are 2 over pairs that got there, plus Axhh got there, and 9T got there. I'm not sure what hands other than AA or KK get to the river here that we beat. And I don't see AA or KK calling a jam at this point. We lose to 88, 77, 55, T9s, ATh+, JJ, QQ. The pot is also so large that I'm not sure villain will fold any of them even with the hearts getting there.

Combos we beat: 12
Combos we lose to: 18

Seeing as we can't really get value from worse given the runout, and our best scenario by jamming is getting 55 to fold. I feel like this is a check fold on the river. Jamming 78 at this point is really just turning our hand into a bluff. And our opponent would have to be way out there to have a bluff on the river at this point. If he's that good kudos to him.

We have better hands here than 78 by the river as well. We can have all the flopped sets, 9T, Axh, and even 64s or 69s and played it this way given the board and all the folds on the flop. We aren't even at the top of our range here.
 

Legend5555

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Missed this post entirely somehow.

Preflop:
Not surprising to see giant opens in "live" games, especially when stacks are very deep. IP this is a good candidate to 3bet occasionally for balance. There is a ton of dead money out there to win. But seeing as we are OOP and closing the action getting 5 to 1 with what will be an SPR of like 15, pretty slam dunk call.

Flop:
Balancing a donk range is just hard in general. So its not very wrong to just never do it. And given that the raiser is next to act, easy check. If raiser checks then anyone that acts after him is giving away a lot of info about their hand, as they weren't making an auto check to the raiser. If villain bets, it REALLY defines his hand a lot, as leading here into 5 people is not something he can do on this board that lightly.

After villain bets on flop, he is saying he has an overpair, nut draw, or a set. And honestly, betting an overpair here is probably wrong. This board his calling hands so hard that being something like AA when OOP on the field can easily be lighting money on fire generally. Though in this game, who knows.

Regardless, we block 2 sets, villain is saying they have a strong hand, and we have top 2. Pretty mandatory raise. I'd want to size such that I get bet 3/4 pot turn and then 3/4 or less on river. So like 125-140 total on flop.

Note that this deep, if there was one or more calls in the field, I don't think raising is a great idea. It's unlikely a raise gets people off hands on this board. It's actually a pretty good idea in that instance to just call and hope we get a blank on turn so our equity increases before we just pile money in.

Turn
Pretty safe card. Bet around 2/3 to set up a less than pot sized river jam.

River
:wtf:
So now there are 2 over pairs that got there, plus Axhh got there, and 9T got there. I'm not sure what hands other than AA or KK get to the river here that we beat. And I don't see AA or KK calling a jam at this point. We lose to 88, 77, 55, T9s, ATh+, JJ, QQ. The pot is also so large that I'm not sure villain will fold any of them even with the hearts getting there.

Combos we beat: 12
Combos we lose to: 18

Seeing as we can't really get value from worse given the runout, and our best scenario by jamming is getting 55 to fold. I feel like this is a check fold on the river. Jamming 78 at this point is really just turning our hand into a bluff. And our opponent would have to be way out there to have a bluff on the river at this point. If he's that good kudos to him.

We have better hands here than 78 by the river as well. We can have all the flopped sets, 9T, Axh, and even 64s or 69s and played it this way given the board and all the folds on the flop. We aren't even at the top of our range here.
I didn't make this clear, but 55 and QQ are really low on the totem pole of hands villain could have here, though they are possible. JJ is even less likely. Though, against a sticky villain it's possible. I'd expect both sets to raise back at some point. Though given the board texture and stack sizes, 55 maybe should be just calling down.
 
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Taghkanic

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But seeing as we are OOP and closing the action getting 5 to 1 with what will be an SPR of like 15, pretty slam dunk call.

This analysis is comprehensive and spot on... So of course I want to quibble with the one sentence I kind of disagree with.

A leak I’ve been trying to plug in my own game is using pot odds like 5:1 for multiway hands out of position. This seems very tempting and I often convince myself to come up.

Getting 5:1 odds is great against 1-2 players; six-way to the flop, not so much, I think.

87s will pretty much need to make two pair or better to win the hand against five opponents.

The odds of making two pair, trips, a straight or flush by the river are less than 5:1, by my amateur calculation. Not a lot less, but less. And you are probably going to spend a lot more to hang on to the river to realize that equity.

Plus, sometimes your two pair or trips or straight or flush will *still* be no good, putting you in a reverse implied odds situation (if I’m using the term correctly).

Now: Maybe the high SPR makes up for some of that—a few of the times you win, you may win really big. But that requires that one or more of the opponents are willing to pay you off with worse.

Happy to be corrected on any of the above!
 
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Legend5555

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This analysis is comprehensive and spot on... So of course I want to quibble with the one sentence I kind of disagree with.

A leak I’ve been trying to plug in my own game is using pot odds like 5:1 for multiway hands out of position. This seems very tempting and I often convince myself to come up.

Getting 5:1 odds is great against 1-2 players; six-way to the flop, not so much, I think.

87s will pretty much need to make two pair or better to win the hand against five opponents.

The odds of making two pair, trips, a straight or flush by the river are less than 5:1, by my amateur calculation. Not a lot less, but less. And you are probably going to spend a lot more to hang on to the river to realize that equity.

Plus, sometimes your two pair or trips or straight or flush will *still* be no good, putting you in a reverse implied odds situation (if I’m using the term correctly).

Now: Maybe the high SPR makes up for some of that—a few of the times you win, you may win really big. But that requires that one or more of the opponents are willing to pay you off with worse.

Happy to be corrected on any of the above!
There are also just a lot of direct implied odds. And 78s has a lot of playability. We are highly multiway, which does suck. But we have great relative position since the PFR acts right after us.

There are a lot of variables to juggle. And obviously having this on the button getting 5 to 1 is better than in the BB getting 5 to 1. But given stack depth, this is a pretty easy call. Now if we only had like $200 or $300 here, the argument for folding is much stronger. And if the skill of our opponents is higher, that also adds to folding.

As we can see from this hand, the danger of small two pair and/or small flushes multiway is very real. And the only reason I think Hero can play the hand the way he did is because of all the flop folds. If villain had bet and say the next person to act raised, there is actually a strong argument for the hero to just fold on the flop.

The SPR really drives decisions in really deep games more than direct odds. This hand could almost be viewed as a $1/$3 hand with the same stack sizes. I'm that case we'd be getting over 7 to 1 instead of the 5.5 to 1 we are getting here. But that not that big a difference at that point. Still, direct odds have some bearing, so they are worth mentioning.

To get super technical (and also unfun for being a total nit), from a GTO POV, you probably don't need to play almost any hand for a 10x raise when there is no ante. But that's probably not optimally profitable from a "exploitative play" POV. And it's horribly nitty.
 

Rhodeman77

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We are almost to the end of this hand!

Hero agrees that checking makes the most sense for all the reasons given and does so.

Caveman uses almost the entire 30 seconds of time we have to act. Which from past experience always means he is betting big, which he does. He goes ALL-IN! (Around $625)

action is back to Hero. Do we call the All-in or fold?

reasoning for decision.
 

FordPickup92

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Interesting. I wonder if he took the check as weakness and is attempting to bluff with a pair. I dont like that flush draw at all.
 

Eriks

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Pretty cool to turn :ah:Ax into a bluff in his shoes but no I’d check/fold this. Although the big all-in does seem to polorize his range to nuts or nothing. There are quite a few nuts hands that make sense and not a whole lot of bluffs.
 

mipevi

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While hero needs to call this bet some amount of time, I think we can have a bunch of better hands to do that with (like sets and straights with flush draw removal). Middling two pair goes in the fold bin for me.
 

ChaosRock

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I fold. I described the reasons on my previous post. Not a whole lot of bluff combos for Villain imo.

If he is turning a big pair into a bluff, kudos to him. Is he bad enough he could be betting a big pair for value? LOL

Yeah, I can't see a call here unfortunately. Hero cannot win every hand, although one can always hope (and try ;)).
 
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Kain8

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Is Caveman able to unga bunga bet like this on all of the scary rivers? i.e. If the river brings 4 to a straight on the board is he capable to do the same shove? If so, that would swing me more towards calling.

This hand was fraught with peril at the onset (which of course are the best lessons to observe and try to navigate) as we aren't happy on a LOT of turns and rivers due to the flop being so dynamic. Dynamic flops allow brute force players to do just this very thing and you're just along for the ride.

With both of the best draws arriving in one card (thanks Lee Jones) it's a pretty prudent fold to make. If he shows a dry :ah: bluff, or :ah::6d: for the two way bluff / actual draw, and he gets the fold, he earned the pot.
 

Taghkanic

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And the only reason I think Hero can play the hand the way he did is because of all the flop folds.

Exactly.

As described, with the preflop raiser being a known LAG to everyone involved, that would make me way less inclined to close the action with an overcall OOP with four others already in. I’d either fold or squeeze pre. Postflop, one can’t expect in that setup to become the only one calling the LAGs cbet, except once in a blue moon.

My main point, though, was just to observe that 5:1 here really only means means that you’re 1 out of 6 players. There’s no dead money in the pot IIRC, or maybe just half a big blind from the small blind. I’d expect that there is probably a pocket pair smaller than TT in the crowd, a wide spread of overcards, and possibly some other suited or connected hands which dominate your own 87s. To just call, you really have to believe that the others’ ranges are either incredibly wide, or they’ll play terribly postflop, or both.

If I were playing regularly in such a game, I’d be less worried about profiling the annoying villain than figuring out what the hell others are calling 10x opens from an UTG+1 LAG with in such situations.

P.S. Check/sigh/call/pray villain turns over Ah6x.
 

DrStrange

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Preflop - I see fold and call as about equal. Maybe leaning a little towards folding. Folding vs good villains, calling vs a weaker field. three-betting is a fancy play. < not a clear mistake, but it could easily turn into one.> Multiway pot and out of position makes hero's sweet looking hand turn a bit sour.

Flop - top two pair on a wet board is not as strong as it might feel. More so playing massively multiway, very deep and out of position. I am checking and looking for a reason to fold.

flop part two - well that was unexpected. LAG bets and everyone else folds! This changes everything. The pot is $140 once Hero catches up. Effective stacks of $850. I wonder how big an idiot the caveman is? Could he stack off on one pair? Let's not go for that. bite sized pieces on the flop, rather than the whole side of beef. I raise $140 on top or $180 all day. The whole side of beef might still be on the menu for the turn.

Turn as played - effective stacks are ~$750 and the pot is $310. The black queen is a 98% brick. I am leaning towards a fancy play here. Let's over-bet jam vs a sticky weak villain. One who might not even consider pot odds or such things. NOT doing this so often vs a good villain or one that might fold top pair to a huge bet. This villain might even call with a plain-jane flush draw.

River - Pot is $710. Effective stacks are $550. Sucky card. better to check call rather than bet puke. I would expect the bet to be all-in. and only am snap calling with the good read. I would have to ponder hard vs an unknown. Also check call lets hero fold losing hands without tabling.

This last part of the ride is going to be rough -=- DrStrange
 

AWenger

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A check is weak, but it has a few benefits. I don’t want to play anymore!
Call, because I do not like money!
Hey... wait a minute...I thought you didn't want to play anymore past the flop, and now you're calling all in on the river. :ROFL: :ROFLMAO: ;)

Hero bets $200 and is once again called without any hesitation from Caveman.
Pot is now $710~
river is the:jh:
Final board is :8h::7s::5h::qc::jh:
Caveman uses almost the entire 30 seconds of time we have to act. Which from past experience always means he is betting big, which he does. He goes ALL-IN! (Around $625)
action is back to Hero. Do we call the All-in or fold?
Tough decision that is very player dependent.... in a vacuum, I probably would fold, given the range of hands that beat us at this point. But if I knew the player is capable of betting/calling flop & turn and capable of a big river bluff, I might find a call in this spot.
 

Steve Birrer

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This is why I didn't get in the nand in the first place. 5 way preflop and flop about as good as you can hope for and still raises far too many questions for my liking. But as played I am folding the river unless I have some really good intel on Villain.
 

Moxie Mike

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We are almost to the end of this hand!

Hero agrees that checking makes the most sense for all the reasons given and does so.

Caveman uses almost the entire 30 seconds of time we have to act. Which from past experience always means he is betting big, which he does. He goes ALL-IN! (Around $625)

You didn't say anything about whether he'd shown down a winner when he bets big, so I'mm assuming those hands didn't go to showdown.

I'm putting Caveman pretty squarely on :ah::kh:. The 10x preflop open is suggestive of an ultra-premium hand... Laggy players who like to splash around regardless of position often have bet-sizing tells. This feels like one of those spots. I don't think he opens this big OOP with an :ah::6h: or :ah::th: type of hand.

His flop play supports this. He probably didn't expect to get check raised, but he doesn't mind playing a big pot here given the stack sizes. The turn changed nothing, but he wasn't going anywhere. The only reason he didn't jam the flop or turn is because he fears a flopped straight. So he's calling it down and if he misses his draw he'll just fold the river if bet into. Maybe he bluffs if the river bricks - but that's beside the point.

action is back to Hero. Do we call the All-in or fold?

reasoning for decision.

When a Laggy player tanks to the end of his time bank and then jams, he's usually doing this because he wants you to think he had something to think about. He was always jamming. He knows how suspicious the insta-jam looks, so he wants you to think he's unsure of himself before making his move.

I think you can take all the big pocket pairs out of his range... I think he stacks off with most of those hands on the flop or turn given the description. He doesn't sound like the type of player who harbors a 'get to showdown as cheaply as possible' type of mentality you see in more cautious players.

So I'm releasing here. It SUCKS that you have 30 seconds to process such a decision... hopefully you made the right move.
 

Rhodeman77

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Results:

Hero goes into the tanks and makes the crying call. Caveman shows :ah::qh: for the the nut flush and wins the biggest pot of the night.















Actually I couldn't make up my mind and timed out and was folded. I felt he was on a flush draw the whole time and that if he hit he would get the double up from a hand I couldn't fold. We have a lot of history and he knew he was behind on the flop but will continue with any draw for sure that can beat what was on the flop. Even if he had 910 it beats any flopped made hand. I would have called any non Q, 5, or heart river bet as I think he would have made the same bet if he missed his draw. Is he capable of bluffing with the bare Ace high blocker, yes, but he would usually do that when he is checked to in position, not calling a check raise or betting into the field of callers on a board that favors a calling range.


I had actually thought about a turn shove as mentioned by @DrStrange but I wasn't sure I could get a call enough of the time. I do wish I would have bet bigger on the flop and turn both though. I will definitely be sizing my bets up even more vs this villain.

After the hand everyone was trying to speculate what we each had and Caveman made a comment that he thought he took the lead on the turn. Which makes me think he had AQhh, or KQhh. But he could have also been fishing for info from me about my hand.
 
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redwine

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shoving on turn is def not terrible

i think once you check and he shoves you gotta let it go. i think it's these types of folds that really make you money in the long run.
 

BarrieJ3

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Results:

Hero goes into the tanks and makes the crying call. Caveman shows :ah::qh: for the the nut flush and wins the biggest pot of the night.















Actually I couldn't make up my mind and timed out and was folded. I felt he was on a flush draw the whole time and that if he hit he would get the double up from a hand I couldn't fold. We have a lot of history and he knew he was behind on the flop but will continue with any draw for sure that can beat what was on the flop. Even if he had 910 it beats any flopped made hand. I would have called any non Q, 5, or heart river bet as I think he would have made the same bet if he missed his draw. Is he capable of bluffing with the bare Ace high blocker, yes, but he would usually do that when he is checked to in position, not calling a check raise or betting into the field of callers on a board that favors a calling range.


I had actually thought about a turn shove as mentioned by @DrStrange but I wasn't sure I could get a call enough of the time. I do wish I would have bet bigger on the flop and turn both though. I will definitely be sizing my bets up even more vs this villain.

After the hand everyone was trying to speculate what we each had and Caveman made a comment that he thought he took the lead on the turn. Which makes me think he had AQhh, or KQhh. But he could have also been fishing for info from me about my hand.
unsatisfied.gif
\\

Just kidding. Great PAHWM, enjoyed seeing people's thoughts.
 

Rhodeman77

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@Rhodeman77, what types of hands do you think the four others who went to the flop were holding, roughly? Why’d they all fold on that board?

Any two broadway cards, baby pocket pairs, 2’s 3’s, 4’s. Ace rag suited would be my best guess.

I would think that even if they flopped a 1 pair hand with something like A7 or A5 that they don’t want to call the flop bet with more people to act still and possibly having to fold the turn to more aggression.
 

JustinInMN

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Preflop - I see fold and call as about equal. Maybe leaning a little towards folding. Folding vs good villains, calling vs a weaker field. three-betting is a fancy play. < not a clear mistake, but it could easily turn into one.> Multiway pot and out of position makes hero's sweet looking hand turn a bit sour.

Flop - top two pair on a wet board is not as strong as it might feel. More so playing massively multiway, very deep and out of position. I am checking and looking for a reason to fold.

So I have to ask, if you are "looking for a reason to fold" top two pair in a multi way pot, why are you calling with any middle connectors at all pre-flop to close the action in an obviously multi way pot?

I do agree two pair is deceptive in strength, and it shouldn't be an automatic continue, there are boards and action that lead to clear lay-downs. A two-flush isn't ideal, but it's far from the worst 2-pair flop we could hit either. T-9-8 comes to mind as being pretty bad. 9-8-7 Suited would be really bad too. But the flop in this hand seems closer to good than bad for me.

What I am trying to put out there that there is a reflex to go with suited connectors in big pots, but part of this strategy is being willing to go with big draws and big flops. If the stack depth, aggression of opponents, number of opponents, position are going to make that difficult in later streets, well you know all those things preflop actually. When you play speculative hands you are trying to make a monster for cheap, you have to consider the variables that would keep you from that goal, and if that really diminishes willingness to continue on a number of these sorts of flops, you are overpaying preflop.

However, flopping two-pair always means there's at least a 2-straight's worth of wetness too the board. It seems to me if you are only looking to continue on rainbow flop two pairs, it's not enough to justify the price of the call (especially 10x sizing), and trips-plus won't flop enough either. Also, as we discussed in another recent suited connector hand, you may be put in ugly spots with your best draws, especially in bad position. If this is not a comfortable spot for two pair, then in my opinion the pre-flop decision should be clear, not close.
 
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