deep online home game $1/1 Hold'em

Rhodeman77

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I definitely raise. Bet sizing is tough. How sticky is villain? How likely is he to call with an overpair or with a flush draw or straight draw? And how likely will he bet any scare card on the turn? What is your plan for the turn if a scare card comes?

The answer to these questions will affect my bet sizing quite a bit. Based on your description of villain, I’m thinking more in the $175 range.

Caveman is definitely sticky! Last week in a PLO hand I had raised preflop and he called. Flop came 777. I bet with my AAxx full house and he calls. I check the turn and he bets, I raise all-in and he calls with 1010xx. We were only about $150 effective that hand though.

He is going to continue with all of his big flush draws, over pairs and 910 hands at just about any price. But he will also continue with a lot weaker hands as well like AQ with the Ace of hearts if we don’t price it too high. Especially if he thinks he can bluff repping a draw that comes in since he has position.
 

Hornet

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Caveman is definitely sticky! Last week in a PLO hand I had raised preflop and he called. Flop came 777. I bet with my AAxx full house and he calls. I check the turn and he bets, I raise all-in and he calls with 1010xx. We were only about $150 effective that hand though.

He is going to continue with all of his big flush draws, over pairs and 910 hands at just about any price. But he will also continue with a lot weaker hands as well like AQ with the Ace of hearts if we don’t price it too high. Especially if he thinks he can bluff repping a draw that comes in since he has position.
Thanks Adam, that’s very helpful. I still like the larger bet sizing because I don’t think he’s going anywhere, particularly against you. $175 it is.
 

Steve Birrer

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Man ya'll lost me pre flop. Actually ya'll lost me before the game even started. Guy opens preflop 10X and gets 4 callers before it even gets to me. I just took my chips and went home.....lol.

Now to play along.
1. I am not playing 87cc against five hands. Pot odds may make me think about calling but OOP not a fan.
2. But ok if you decided to play then call I think is correct.
3. Checking the flop is my vote.
4. Given the bet by Villain and folding around to me with that flop I am going to raise big. Since you say Villain is a LAG I could see him have several general hands.
a. An over pair. Hero is in good shape.
b. Two big hearts. Hero is in good shape.
c. 10 9? Unless they are both hearts his post flop bet is pretty aggressive given the preflop callers behind him. And would he open 10x with 109???
d. Villain has 88, 77, or 55 then you are just going to lose your chips.
e. Villain has 66 and has a straight draw. Would he open 10X with a smallish to mid pair? Hero is in good shape.
f. Now the goof ball hands. Would he open 10x with a big card and 6 both hearts like A6hh? If he has the 6 of hearts and any other heart you are in deep shit.
 

boltonguy

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I have played with some of you at WC and I think I am not at your level but here's my thinking for what it's worth.
1. I would fold this hand pre to a 10BB UTG RFI and 4 field callers
2. I would check the flop - I wouldnt donk multiway here; I dont think its likely to check around and would like to see the level of interest in the hand.
3. Given your description of V as a LAG we are probably ahead here. We are ahead of a heart draw, an OESD, suited and offsuit broadways. We lose to sets but those are a small number of the total combos in V's range. Lots of turns can negatively impact our equity; with a heart draw, V has 8 outs; with OESD V has 8 outs. So if we have fold equity I can get behind a X/R to $140 end the hand now while we are still ahead and build the pot in case we get a call and the draws miss the turn. If we dont have fold equity with a X/R I am inclined to flat call as I dont see the benefit of building the pot on such a dynamic board with no FE. Maybe I am too nitty but if I know he wont fold I dont want to face a turn barrel on a bloated pot if a heart comes or the OESD comes in; I would struggle to make the fold and would probably face a river bet as well. Without FE, I also think it would be beneficial to keep our hand strength under-repped if the draws miss and a non-heart broadway card comes which would smack UTG's RFI range resulting in a turn barrel which we would like.
 

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I call pre as well. On the flop I like check, depending on your playing style I think a lead may look very value heavy. Definitely check raising cbet plus a caller or two. Now that everyone else folds I’m probably not always raising, although a set would be a better flat call candidate since it’s less vulnerable. Will he really stack off with overpairs this deep?
 

mipevi

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Raise $100 on top, setting up a possible turn check-raise for stacks! :D
 

Rhodeman77

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So the plan was to check raise figuring Caveman would bet and if not then one of the player to act behind would as this flop hit a lot of preflop calling ranges.

I went a little smaller though since we are heads up and I wanted to keep his non pair broadway hands in as well as I thought that would be a decent % of his range here.

Hero raises to $125 total and is called very quickly by Caveman. Possible speed calling tell???

pot is $310 ish.

Turn is the :qc:

Board is now: :8h::7s::5h::qc:

Action is on Hero. Do we bet or check? If betting, how much?
 

Perthmike

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Not a terrible card, and it shouldn't really change anything, so I'm going to continue and I'd make it about $220.
 

redwine

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If I got double check raised it would tilt me a little.

i think last time i double check raised i was bluffing with pocket 77 and got tilt called by AK on the turn, and held. maybe it's a thing.
 

Mike Wells

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Got to keep firing to protect your hand. I know "they" say you should never bet to find out where you are...but I'm betting at least half pot...and reevaluating on the river. Puking in my mouth if I get raised.
 

Eriks

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I would think it’s unlikely we’re beat at this point (unless QQ). A flopped straight or set is likely to 3bet a wet flop like that.

99-JJ aren’t gonna be too crazy about that turn although we don’t have a ton of queens that check/raises that flop. How do you think he’d play a flush draw/combo draw on the flop? If he’s likely to play his draws aggrssively I’m sizing a turn bet to mainlytarget AA-KK and JJ-99, say around $175 and I’ll up that to $250ish if we think he can have a lot of draws in his range still (I guess this deep it makes sense to flat your raise with a draw as well as with an over pair). Puke if we get raised for sure. Cool hand!
 

mipevi

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The stack sizes are ripe for that check/raise now! :sneaky:
 

Taghkanic

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From a generic unknown villain, I tend to read quick calls like that as being weighted toward flush draws, especially nut flush draws, and flush draws with gutshot/OE combo draws.

Ah5h, Ah9h are two among these that a LAG might consider especially promising. (Is he LAGgy enough to raise UTG+1 with 95s, T5s or 54s?)

The big draw is the one which such players may consider an insta-call, especially facing a raise that is not huge.

If he had QQ or another set, he’d presumably have to stop at least a moment to consider raising for value. If a pocket pair like 99-JJ, there’s a lot more to ponder. If an overpair, or AQ/KQ/JQ/QT, again for many that is not a snap decision, unless maybe if you tanked forever giving villain time to plan.

Or if you know this villain just snap calls a ton of turns regardless of texture; or is that player at the table who never believes you.

If I know the player well, possibly the read is different.
 
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Perthmike

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Turn is a good card for you. I bet $215 (I was going to say $220 but don’t want to agree with @Perthmike ).
Screenshot_20200716_105942.jpg
 

ChaosRock

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As said above, not a bad card for us and we should have the best hand most of the time here. So I say bet.

My attention has shifted on the river now. Do we want to fire again on a heart or other scary card? I'm saying yes if Villain is sticky with over pair on a check-raised pot. At the same time though, maybe we should try and leave room for a bet/fold. Not sure stacks would allow that unless we bet small now and on the river. Answering my own question, effective stack is awkward to fire the turn and bet/fold a scary card on the river. Tough one to pick sizing imo.

I guess if betting $175 on the turn then betting $200/fold on a scary card on the river is within Hero's betting pattern, maybe I'd go for it. If Hero's betting is normally outside of those small sizings, then I bet a little larger, like $225 and re-evaluate the river depending on the card.
 
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JustinInMN

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Hero is in the BB with :8c::7c: ($1150)

Caveman ($900) is UTG+1 and opens to $10 after UTG folds.
There are 4 callers from the field including the Button before it gets to Hero.

Well since we had the thread last week about not being able to continue with a straight flush draw on 98s last week, this is a snap fold to me. 10x is a nutty sizing and we will be out of position making it very difficult to extract values/make moves later in the hand. But I am guessing this is the same session and we weren't analyzing this hand through that lens at that point.

Hero calls the $10.

Six players to the flop Pot is $61

Flop comes:
:8h::7s::5h: and action is on Hero first to act.

check or bet?

This is an interesting decision point because the probable bettor is acting right after hero. So going for a check raise, means we as hero are going to likely be raising a calling train as well, which might be tempting from a pot size standpoint, but doesn't really protect our hand from redraws.

If we are playing to limit the field donking hoping to induce a raise from villian having an overpair might be a good strategy. But also pretty revealing about our hand strength, would we be donking A8 here for example? What about the NFD? Is this a spot where we are just better off checking 100%? Do we have other holdings here where we would like to check-call (pair and straight draw, for example), meaning checking 100% serves the goal to protect the spots where we hold that sort of hand?

I think I would settle on this being a 100% check spot and we are planning to raise a huge sizing over any bettor, especially if caveman villian continues.


Let's move this hand along a little.

Hero checks. Caveman bets $40, everyone folds back to Hero.

Action is on Hero, we are heads up at this point already with Caveman. Do we call or raise? If raising, how much?

So there's 61 in the pot and shockingly no one else had enough to call caveman here? Okay then we succeeded in limiting the field and can really put the screws to caveman with a pretty good hand. I think I am going to raise to about 150 here.

Hero raises to $125 total and is called very quickly by Caveman. Possible speed calling tell???

pot is $310 ish.

Turn is the :qc:

Board is now: :8h::7s::5h::qc:

Action is on Hero. Do we bet or check? If betting, how much?

Really a pretty safe card assuming QQ is the only hand in villian's utg+1 pf raising range that improves with a Q. If he's spewy enough to have Q8 or Q7 then maybe that hurts us too. But if he's that spewy, literally every turn card could be a monster.

But I think villain is checking his whole range behind unless he is ahead of us. I think we have to give ourselves a chance to collect from overpairs and flush draws here. I am going to bet about 175-200. Should be more than half pot, but I don't want to go nuts on the sizing if we get raised here. Then we have to decide if he can bluff or semi-bluff this turn or if a raise here always means a set. (But hint looking at the future I think 8s and 7s is pretty close to the top of our range here, we can have all the flopped sets too in our pf range I assume, but 87 is next in line after that, we may have to defend against bluffs, especially because other than QQ, we block villain sets pretty severely.)
 
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Frogzilla

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maybe if we check and make it look like we were bluffing we can get in the legendary double check-raise :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
My dream in life is to pull off a triple. One day.


Regarding the hand:

Pre-flop/flop should be whatever you usually do with most of your continue range. It’s important to keep ranges wide when playing deep (BTW, this game is playing as a $3 bb game if opens are usually to $10, so in effect we are 300bb deep not 1000bb) . So if you are squeezing wide with that much weakness behind the original raiser, squeeze 78cc also. If you are usually flatting most of your continue range, flat 78cc also. Having played with you, you should be flatting here.

Flop is basically an auto-check with our entire range.

Check-raise vs check-call, again depends on how big our flat range is. We don’t really need protection against broadway or overpair holdings, so this hand should go with the bigger range. This might be a check-call actually if you’d play your pair+draws, TT, etc that way.

Turn brick means your draws (A6ss with backdoor, etc) want to c-bet bluff and you need to balance with a nice value range, I would keep on the pressure with 20-22% effective stack which by my math is $160ish.
 

Taghkanic

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So there's 61 in the pot and shockingly no one else had enough to call caveman here?

Had the same thought. This flop completely missed *four* other preflop callers of a 10x raise? Who must also know the raiser is a LAG, and likely to cbet even his worst whiffs?

It makes me want to try to do some card subtraction. What completely missed the flop here? A2o, A3o... or suited with no backdoor flush draw on this board... Low set mines (22... 33...). Not much else, unless people are really calling big opens pre by UTG+1 with garbage.

Did everyone have Broadway combos? And none of them thought, ah, this guy is full of it, if I catch my K or A I’m probably good, I’ll call once and see what develops?

66 is continuing. Even 44 might call this specific bettor. 77/88 are raising. 99+, 9T, maybe other combos with 9s and 6s, especially A6, and all flush draws, are at minimum calling or more likely raising. A8/A7o could fold, but given the villain’s description it seems too tight.

This may be more than one really thinks about in the moment, but six-way is a lot of players on the flop so it seems worth considering now.
 
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Taghkanic

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P.S. There are a couple of fish in my Pppoker tourney (all players from a live game gone online) who will cbet the flop if they hit *any* portion of the board — regardless of problematic flop textures that might give others pause. Including bottom pairs, gutshots, as well as underpairs.

They tend to bet modestly with the above, bet bigger when they catch TP or a stronger draw, but to try to be tricky and slow play their overpairs/monster flops.

Is this one of that type? If so, is 2/3rds pot a big flop bet for him, or just standard? If the latter, I’m thinking something more like A4/A5/A7 with no flush draw.
 

Rhodeman77

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Hero feels like most of you that the Queen was pretty much a blank as QQ is the only hand that would now be beating us that wasn’t before.

Hero bets $200 and is once again called without any hesitation from Caveman.

Pot is now $710~

river is the:jh:

Final board is :8h::7s::5h::qc::jh:

action is on Hero. Do we check or bet? If betting, how much?
 

Hornet

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Check, feel sick to your stomach, and get ready to call his river bet.

edit: most likely I’m check-folding because so many draws got home on the river.
 
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Perthmike

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That's a sucky card. I'd be thinking about a check call or check fold, depending on how bluffy the opponent is, and depending on the size of any river bet.

Edit. Just re-read your description of him as being one to bluff draws that came in. Check call for sure. Lame
 
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Frogzilla

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I can’t imagine we’re ahead of much of the calling range. AA with the heart blocker would probably bluff catch us but that’s way too few combos. So value betting is out the door.

Don’t really need to turn 87 into a bluff as we unblock the hearts and the straights.

This is a good spot for the ole check-fold.
 
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