Deciding to take a shot as a PLO pro in TAMPA but lots of good players. (1 Viewer)

MatB

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Of course not, in Hold Em the equity calculations are vastly different from PLO. In PLO even good Aces aren't a huge favorite unless your opponent is also paired, so you can't really compare the strategies of play from one to another. In Hold Em sometimes one pair is going to win, in PLO you're going to be running into a lot more sets, straights, flushes and full houses.

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I understand how not as strong Aces are in PLO vs HE, my point was more that AA in holder is a premium hand and you don't want 7 players seeing a flop.

A premium hand in PLO is similar to AA in Holdem. Get the crumb bums out the the hand pre.

If 7 players see the flop you have so many more factors to compete against,
Sticky lag that has 4 outs. (hi ! yeah that's me , not going anywhere)
The tight player who connected and has OESD. (He's not going anywhere).
The fish with top pair who thinks he's hit payday. (he's not going anywhere)
The 6543 guys who gets a piece. (not going anywhere)
The Two guys that whiffed EVERYTHING. (he's probably folding)

And you. The guy with 53% equity. Up against 5 players thinking you are Waaaaay ahead. And in theory yes you are. But not a great strategy. 5 players seeing 2 more cards. The thought Gives me chills.

You never want 7 players seeing a flop. EVER. The only time I want 7 players seeing a flop is my first buy-in and we all doing a flip for 100
 

Goldfish

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You play a different game that has different rules and you use that as justification for playing PLO badly?

LOL the only word that made any sense in your entire post was "rebuy"
Well, I thank you for your candid response. Most people just tell me how creative I am and invite me to a game.

I wouldn’t say I play badly. I just gamble more than most. However, I generally know where I am at and can wiggle out of potentially bad spots.
 

Anthony Martino

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I understand how not as strong Aces are in PLO vs HE, my point was more that AA in holder is a premium hand and you don't want 7 players seeing a flop.

A premium hand in PLO is similar to AA in Holdem. Get the crumb bums out the the hand pre.

If 7 players see the flop you have so many more factors to compete against,
Sticky lag that has 4 outs. (hi ! yeah that's me , not going anywhere)
The tight player who connected and has OESD. (He's not going anywhere).
The fish with top pair who thinks he's hit payday. (he's not going anywhere)
The 6543 guys who gets a piece. (not going anywhere)
The Two guys that whiffed EVERYTHING. (he's probably folding)

And you. The guy with 53% equity. Up against 5 players thinking you are Waaaaay ahead. And in theory yes you are. But not a great strategy. 5 players seeing 2 more cards. The thought Gives me chills.

You never want 7 players seeing a flop. EVER. The only time I want 7 players seeing a flop is my first buy-in and we all doing a flip for 100

We have different styles. I want the sticky LAG chasing his 4 outs.

A tight player is sometimes folding the flop with an OESD, those hands are NOT good in PLO, you want a WRAP with more outs plus protection to improve to a higher straight. And if someone wants to chase their OESD when I flop a set and/or nfd, come on down!

I want the fish with just top pair sticking around, that is a fantastic result. You now how many hold em monkeys we get who hit TPTK and think it's somehow the nuts? Or flop an overpair holding QQ32 on a 568 flop and won't let it go? Send them to me!

I'm playing mostly nutted made hands or strong draws to the nuts where I have 16-22 outs. PLO is very much a game of draws a lot of the time. And oftentimes a made hand on the flop is an equity loser to someone with a strong enough draw.
 

MediocrePLOdude

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You sure have a lot of insight and knowledge of everyone given you're brand new to these games. One might think you've been playing them a long time.......

As far as 3-betting a low-oriented rundown, it's far better than cold-calling with it. If he's got position on his opponent and can get it headsup, he can represent a number of flops as having hit him and use his positional advantage to take them down. And when he actually connects with the board, his opponents may assume he completely whiffed and pay him off.

While it's not my style of play as I prefer as many players in the pot as possible preflop, the massage kid is easily one of the best and most successful players in the PLO streets in Tampa. Does he play perfect? No, he's got his leaks and isn't immune to tilt, but I'd still rather he's at a different table than mine if I had the option. My understanding is he has rental properties and stocks so has plenty of other income coming in that he doesn't really have a risk of ruin in the stakes generally played in Tampa.

I don't think Brad is a terrible player, but he definitely drives action and can be dangerous as you said because you can't always put him on a hand. The Brian kid you mentioned (mostly bald kid, or maybe he was wearing a ball cap) I think is way too loose and aggressive in the PLO games, with some lackluster hand selection. He understands position and aggression, but I think he lacks fundamentals regarding hand selection in the game. I don't play NL cash so no idea on his skillset there, but he's willing to gamble in the PLO streets and is generally a welcome addition to the table.
I played 15 hours with those 3 this weekend and gave my impressions. I don't see how that means I've played with them alot. The kid Charlie you say was always playing and the disgusting brad fella showed up late but played an insane style and didn't seem to care about money. As for "Brian" I talked to my neighbor in 2-2 for tips before moving over. My neighbor was an older very nice guy named Ruben with a crazy mask hahaha. Ruben said Brian is one of the best NL players and recently transitioned to PLO so that makes sense he uses position and aggression. Also fwiw the Ruben guy seems to be very good at 2-2. He told me he's had a profitable year 5 years in a row and he just plays a very snug tight style. He got paid off in a few spots including by a younger kid who seemed like a pro because he was super serious. Headphones. Never smiled. Those guys are miserable to play with. I like to have a corona and laugh and enjoy the game
 

MatB

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I’m going to take the advice someone gave me a long time ago.

If you think that someone is playing bad at poker. Why the hell would you ever correct them?



So I’m out of the strategy talk.
 

MediocrePLOdude

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I’m going to take the advice someone gave me a long time ago.

If you think that someone is playing bad at poker. Why the hell would you ever correct them?



So I’m out of the strategy talk.
This charlie guy is most successful according to many so I actually want to learn why he 3 bets 3456 with four spades... I guess he is advertising but it just seems strange
 

Anthony Martino

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An underrated lesson that typically costs a lot of money.

Sometimes you fold the nut straight on the flop against significant action because you can't improve, and turn cards can bring higher straights, flushes or houses.

You might be getting freerolled, playing for your stack where at best you get half the pot
 

Goldfish

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You play a different game that has different rules and you use that as justification for playing PLO badly?

LOL the only word that made any sense in your entire post was "rebuy"
So here I am in early position with 3567 double suited. U would probably fold this hand. Me, I called a 50 raise by late position tight ass. I flop bottom 2 which I know is good against this guy on a 9 hi board. Easy call on his flop bet (probably could have raised here). I turn a 3rd pair and am pretty sure his 50 raise hand doesn’t include a 9 or a rap at this range. Board pairs 9s on the river, I have all the blockers, I bet and he can’t call my big bet because I either have a straight or a full house. You would have missed out on all that value! Bad play or mad genius……. :unsure:

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Samuel

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So here I am in early position with 3567 double suited. U would probably fold this hand. Me, I called a 50 raise by late position tight ass. I flop bottom 2 which I know is good against this guy on a 9 hi board. Easy call on his flop bet (probably could have raised here). I turn a 3rd pair and am pretty sure his 50 raise hand doesn’t include a 9 or a rap at this range. Board pairs 9s on the river, I have all the blockers, I bet and he can’t call my big bet because I either have a straight or a full house. You would have missed out on all that value! Bad play or mad genius……. :unsure:

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You are definitely braver than me! :D
 

Legend5555

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So here I am in early position with 3567 double suited. U would probably fold this hand. Me, I called a 50 raise by late position tight ass. I flop bottom 2 which I know is good against this guy on a 9 hi board. Easy call on his flop bet (probably could have raised here). I turn a 3rd pair and am pretty sure his 50 raise hand doesn’t include a 9 or a rap at this range. Board pairs 9s on the river, I have all the blockers, I bet and he can’t call my big bet because I either have a straight or a full house. You would have missed out on all that value! Bad play or mad genius……. :unsure:

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I'm no PLO expert, but this is "best case scenario mentality" if I've ever seen it.
 

trigs

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I'm no PLO expert, but this is "best case scenario mentality" if I've ever seen it.
Lol. I played a bad hand and flopped great and won. Therefore, I should play bad hands more often ;)

EDIT: I should clarify because I'm just being a dick I guess. I'm not saying I'd never play a hand like that, but this example of it working out once is not the best reason to do it often, or even do it at all.
 

MatB

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It’s called mixing it up.
 

Goldfish

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Lol. I played a bad hand and flopped great and won. Therefore, I should play bad hands more often ;)

EDIT: I should clarify because I'm just being a dick I guess. I'm not saying I'd never play a hand like that, but this example of it working out once is not the best reason to do it often, or even do it at all.
It’s called playing poker. Sitting around waiting to be dealt a premium hand, then waiting to hit the flop in a monster way and hoping that someone pays u off with a second best hand is not really playing poker. That’s kinda like begging for change on the street corner. Playing poker means mixing it up and using all tools at ur disposal to win the pot. the cards in ur hand are just one tool in ur arsenal. By ur comment, i don’t consider u a d#ck, just a very routine 1 dimensional player. very easy to play against.

that hand worked out because I made it work out. That guy probably had aces or kings and probably had the best hand after the river. I took control of the action and told a story that gave him no choice to fold. the cards were irrelevant.
 

MatB

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It’s called playing poker. Sitting around waiting to be dealt a premium hand, then waiting to hit the flop in a monster way and hoping that someone pays u off with a second best hand is not really playing poker. That’s kinda like begging for change on the street corner. Playing poker means mixing it up and using all tools at ur disposal to win the pot. the cards in ur hand are just one tool in ur arsenal. By ur comment, i don’t consider u a d#ck, just a very routine 1 dimensional player. very easy to play against.

that hand worked out because I made it work out. That guy probably had aces or kings and probably had the best hand after the river. I took control of the action and told a story that gave him no choice to fold. the cards were irrelevant.

Amen !!
 

Legend5555

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It’s called playing poker. Sitting around waiting to be dealt a premium hand, then waiting to hit the flop in a monster way and hoping that someone pays u off with a second best hand is not really playing poker. That’s kinda like begging for change on the street corner. Playing poker means mixing it up and using all tools at ur disposal to win the pot. the cards in ur hand are just one tool in ur arsenal. By ur comment, i don’t consider u a d#ck, just a very routine 1 dimensional player. very easy to play against.

that hand worked out because I made it work out. That guy probably had aces or kings and probably had the best hand after the river. I took control of the action and told a story that gave him no choice to fold. the cards were irrelevant.
It's must be fun getting to forget all the times you play bad hands OOP and just fold away your preflop call when you don't connect. Or better, when you play a hand like this to the river and lose. I can basically promise you that no matter how good you think you are, these hands OOP assist anything but the worst players is just torching money in the long run.

But hey, more power to you.
 

Goldfish

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It's must be fun getting to forget all the times you play bad hands OOP and just fold away your preflop call when you don't connect. Or better, when you play a hand like this to the river and lose. I can basically promise you that no matter how good you think you are, these hands OOP assist anything but the worst players is just torching money in the long run.

But hey, more power to you.
First, if u have read any of my previous posts u will see that I do not claim to be a great player. I will be the first to admit that I am not. but that doesn’t mean I am a losing player. I have a @Seeking Alpha Social Club championship bracelet. Can u say the same? luckily, I don’t play for a living, I play to have fun. And that means I play hands. It ain’t fun for me to fold for an hour waiting for some premium hand. However, I know and play with plenty of great plo and holdem players - and they certainly do not play a 1 dimensional nitty game. rather, it is wide ranges and max pressure. In fact, they love to play with bed bugs (aka nits, tight asses, etc) because their games are fatally transparent (Especially in games with anties).

second, sometimes you win sometimes you lose … that’s the game. It is imperative that you mix up ur play. Otherwise who is going to pay u off when u eventually have the big hand? You are so focused on that one hand I showed you (the tree) you seem to have lost sight of the forest (the flow of the game). Yeah, I might lose that hand when 3567 doesn’t work out (and others over the course of the night), but I stand a much better chance of getting paid off big when I hit the nuts and make a big bet as opposed to when a tight no action player makes a big bet.

third, sorry if I offended you. My OP was just intended to show that It is imperative to mix it up. By all means my game is not perfect. maybe ur game is. But I guarantee u my game is way more exciting. this conversation is exhausting. Like I said before, I don’t usually have these conversations with hi caliber players such yourself. They don’t usually tap on the glass, they just invite me to their games. Judging from ur comments I guess we will not be playing together.……
 

MediocrePLOdude

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Ok guys some updates. I played on Sunday and the 5-5 was good. The skinny massage kid lose heaps. But I won $300 and quit when the game got big. On Monday I played at this racetrack. The game was very bland. I win $800 mostly because of the following hand.
It's 1-2-5-10
I open UTG to $40 with :ac::ad::qd::qc:

I get called in 3 spots. All fish from what I could tell. Pot $170

Flop :qs::4s::6s:

I check. First player bets $100. It goes call and call and it's back to me. Well. I see all this money and I think I want to gamble. Plus maybe one guy has blocker and other two have bad flush or lower set. So I pot. The first guy insta jams. Oops. Fold. Fold. I call.

He shows me :as::2s::7s::jh:

He then begs to run twice. I found that weird. He has the nuts. Why go twice and give me two shots to win? But I'm like ok I'm so far behind. I agree. First board runs out 44 and second board runs out 6K. So I make a full boat twice and scoop. Then I didn't want to play more because this player who lost started restraddling to 20 and 40 and I felt it was too big so I politely left after another orbit. I think my play is probably bad but I did have the top set and at least 30% in equity and lots of money so oh well. I wanted to gamble a little.
 

MediocrePLOdude

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I am now at hard rock and played 2-2. I saw a funny hand between a serious kid and another serious kid. Maybe two pros. The first player who I've seen on tv opens to $15. It goes call call and the CO flats. So they see a flop 4 ways. Pot $65

Flop :8d::6d::2h:

Check. Check. Check. And the other serious player bets $50

First pro calls. Fold. Fold. Pot $165

Turn :4c:

Check. Kid bets $150. Pro quickly calls. Pot $465

River :ah:

Check. Kid bets $310. Pro quickly calls. Total pot $1085
The kid shows 2587 with diamonds. How funny!!! I think the other player had aces and the better diamonds. But what a game. Players are calling raises with 8752!!!!
 

grebe

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Here's my take on running more than once:
I prefer to just rip it one time.
-I am playing within my means and taking a loss is ok.
-I also agree with the caller on the video above...if they know I will run it multiple times, that incentivises them to raise me with their draws knowing they will have multiple chances to get there if I call.
-running it multiple times slows the game down

That being said, if somebody is passionate about running more than once, I will usually oblige just to not have somebody pissed off....keep the game good kinda thing.
 

Anthony Martino

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I prefer to run it twice because usually when I get the money in I'm an equity favorite. If my opponent has one out and we go twice, I can never be scooped, I'm always guaranteed to get half the pot. And I'm a fan of smoothing out the variance.

As long as you're consistent in what you do I'm fine with going once. If you try switching up on me (deciding to go multiple times if ahead, but only once if behind) then we're once forever.

I do agree that your opponents knowing you'll go twice might incentivize them to play more aggro, which could result in you being pushed off a hand they otherwise might not have played as aggressively if they thought they could only run it once.
 
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