Curious on opinions using plaques in Tourney sets... Does size really matter??

Ben8257

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In another thread it was brought up that a couple of us prefer smaller plaques. It seems the norm that plaques increase in size as the denominations get larger... I am not a huge fan of this. Why you may ask? I prefer the extra elbow room on the table. Maybe this isn’t even worth discussing but with a group buy for MSK plaques curently happening, rather than clogging up that order thread I thought maybe I would move this to its own thread.

Especially at final tables when multiple tables are combined... everyone can’t wait to combine tables and stop playing 5 of 6 handed in an orbit eating up your stacks in blinds pretty quickly. This usually results in combining tables to their full capacity (usually 10 but some places combine at 9) All of us have been there and even at a full size table you can’t help but feel cramped up! For chip leaders this can be even worse with a mound of chips in front of them... Which brings me to my question.

If poker chips are generally the same size, why do plaques generally increase in size??

Usually plaques in the top end of your set only account for 3 - 4 denoms if not less, if it is acceplatble for 4 - 5 denoms of chips to be the same size, can we not do the same with the plaques? Of course the answer is yes but it seems like most sets all increase in size as they go up!

I get that they a larger and more appealing but when table space is at a premium all packed in there, wouldn’t you prefer to have the most space possible? Also storage of different sizes can be an absolute nightmare, my real question here is are you a fan of the plaques increasing in size?

I wish I had more pron I have many plaques at home and can share later, thi one shows what I am talking about
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I was thinking about the recent group buy that @Perthmike ran for the custom PCA plaques. I absolutely love the small ones, but 2 denoms in one size and 2 in the larger... Curious Mike if my comments above have any merit? Do you like having the larger plaques with the smaller ones, do you think all of them being the smaller size would take away from the set?? I do understand that as the larger plaques are put into play that the table will not be filled any more and really this does play a part in the discussion. Also @Poker Zombie, @AfterTheFact even @BGinGA... excuse my ignorance, i am not sure if you own sets that include plaques but assume you do sir. Any opinions on plaque size and table space in your opinions!

Because of the table spacing concerns above I would prefer the entire set to be the smallest size avalible (shown below the Blue $1K and yellow $5k PCA plaques)

This pic is a mess and not in order to really show plaque size, but its the only one I have of Mikes Plaques!! Lol
18BB1227-B608-4279-AE15-8261487AC1EE.png

Hard to really tell but the small PCA plaques are truly much smaller than the larger sizes shown. The Havanah High Hand Plaque is absolutley awesome but massive!

I realize this is probably not the best written OP but seriously interested in peoples opinions on plaque sizing and think it is a valued discussion to members thinking abut making a high value investment in custom plaques.

***Anyone with quality Plaque Pron rather the same size or increasing feel free to share, since I failed showing quality examples! Lol

I realize this is another BEN book and appreciate anyone that takes time to read this, when it is honestly a relatively minor issue.

Fellow Chipper Ben
 
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Polochris

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Wonderful post Ben! I also agree. A similar question, would be mixing in 43mm chips with 39mm chips. It really just depends on preference.

I do agree, I like the plaques to be the same size, just like you see in the movie Casino Royal! I feel since the plaque is so much bigger then chips to begin with, you should be able to see Red or Blue across the table.

I am currently hunting the older version of the 2005 CDI plaques specifically for this reason! I found a good source as well! But I need to sell these dam bourbons first!
 

Perthmike

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I'm not sure why I liked the idea, but it may be because casino plaques typically go up in size, or at least from what I've seen.

Im also a fan of 43mm chips for higher denoms, though I know many do not like doing that.

If I recall, at the time the group was discussing it, and it came up that tbe higher denoms might be nice if they were larger, so we went with it.

The $1k and $5k really are very small compared to other plaques, but I kinda like the size. They play nicely on the table with 39mm chips imo.
 

upNdown

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The problem is that bigger is cooler.
I’ve only owned plaques once - those gorgeous Matsui $100 Ben Franklins, and those were pretty small, so it was no big deal.
In my perfect world, there would be one big plaque for the top denomination in all of my sets - cash or tournament. But for me, plaques are cost prohibitive. The nice looking ones are way to expensive and the almost-affordable ones just aren’t impressive.
If I were to build a set using multiple denominations of plaques, I would want each denomination to be bigger than the last. And for all the reasons you’ve mentioned, that would be a big pain in the butt.
So I think everything you said is true. But I just can’t agree, because bigger is better.
 

Forty4

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I went to look but it doesn’t give a detailed description of the size but my favorite plaque of all time based on size is the Majestics $100.

Oddly I was just looking at Matsui website and they now have oval chip/plaques so want to see those and see what I think. I have a ceramic oval but this is different because if I’m recalling correctly it uses a label.
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ekricket

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I think plaques are good for smaller venues, like SST. Not so great for multitable, unless they don’t come onto the table in later rounds. Breaking tables down and you have to move your coat, chips, drink, backpack, and clumsy plaques on top, just not a good deal.
I have them for cash, but got rid of all my tournament supporting ones. Just too much trouble for a timed event. It’s like putting one of those pop socket things from your phone on a basketball. It makes it easier to hold, but if you dribble it it’s eventually going to cause a bad bounce.
 

toynoob

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I'm not a fan of mixing 43mm with 39mm chips, so obviously I'm going to agree with you here Ben, plaques need to be the same size in each set. JMO, my OCD for storing would never allow different sizes
 

Ben8257

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Thank you very much gents. I agree we will all differ in opinions here! Funny I had a feeling @Perthmike that you were going to agree with me on this one! Anyone who has those PCA plaques, the small ones are just plain awesome... then the larger ones you are kind of like... ehh it’s cool but those little ones with the bright colors just steal the show. As long as you change the colors of the edge band, so you can obviously see the difference in denoms. I don’t see any issues with all four being that small size. You have to admit they don’t take up much room compared to the larger ones!

Again I know this is sillimar to the 39m and 43mm discussion but These plaques are very expensive and I like to keep the newer members informed on things like this that veteran members can really comment from their experiences. Figured what the hell man lets talk about it!!
 

Ben8257

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Figured some in game pron would help. Haven't actually used any of the $25ks yet, only the smaller $5ks
View attachment 563861View attachment 563862
Well with the ES $500s as the T1k, I have said it before and this is not the last time but that may be the most beautiful thing ever brother!! Thank you for the Amazing pron!!

All of your sets are simply amazing but this one makes me want to Book a plane tickets for @FordPickup92 and I to Australia!!

** might just copy that pic for a screen saver!! Haha
 

mipevi

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I’ve never understood why anyone would want to play poker with large plaques. I’m sure they have their uses in some casino games, but personally I would consider anything bigger than a playing card too large for poker, unless there are only a few on the table.

As for plaques traditionally getting larger for higher denoms, I guess it’s just so you can clearly separate them without dirty stack issues (older plaques tend to have just a thick white middle part). If you feel like having differently colored edge markings and different face designs is enough, go right ahead. :)

full
 

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We used all the same size for the recent PCA plaque GB order. I'm excited to see how they turn out. We were told they would be ready to ship around the beginning of November.
 

Poker Zombie

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Our Zombie World Edition tournament set uses plaques. T100,000 is a smaller size, and the T500,000 and the T1,000,000 are the same, larger size.

So the thinking on the set went along these lines...

Chips for the 4 lowest denoms (T500-T25,000), plaques for the top 3 (T100,000-T1,000,000). However, the T1,000,000 rarely hits the table, unless requested. I just had a little OCD with a set ending at half-million, and a million makes the set rebuy-frenzy proof for less cost. Storage space was also a concern, so T1,000,000 cuts the storage space requirements for T500,000s roughly in half. So while I have 3 plaque denoms in the set, I only needed 2 sizes.

So why two sizes vs a single size?

We made cardboard cutouts to the dimensions of each of the plaques sizes. We order a lot of stuff from Amazon, so cardboard boxes are pretty common around here. This helped me get both a visual on storage requirements, and to put them into simulated play.

Our tournament starting stack (9-14 players T1,000,000 /15-20 players T500,000) starts with 3xT100,000 in each stack. We focused on ease to port between tables, one handed, with little risk of dropping, even if you had already amassed 1/2 the plaques at the table. Of course we also looked at how they paired with chip size, and a full table.

I also wanted the same size as the plaques in Casino Royale. Careful study of the scene where Le Chiffre has his plaques atop 2 barrels of chips gave me the approximate size needed.

The Casino Royale plaques were determined to be too big for carrying around, so those were reserved for the T500,000 and the T1,000,000. They are extremely unlikely to hit the table before we get to the final table, so their cross-table portability was not an issue. The smaller size was then selected based on it's size relative to the larger plaques, and the chips. They are easy, even for a small hand, to carry a dozen or so.

The larger plaques usually come into play around the T5000 color-up (level 12). As you can see from the our knockout graph below, there are generally 7 players remaining at that time. Plenty of room to spread out, even if an eliminated player acts as a dedicated dealer for the table.
Screenshot 2020-10-29 10.21.39.jpg

Average knockouts per level. Red line= knockouts, Green line is a trendline. Levels 4, 8, 12, and 16 are breaks. Players may sacrifice chips to get a fresh stack during the rebuy period, which is why there are a few "top-off" eliminations in level 8 (last chance to rebuy).

When the bigger plaques hit the felt, they are immediately noticed, which is why I really like the set. When a new denom hits the table in a all 39mm chip game, not everyone notices. There is no missing the big plaques, even among the other plaques.

Starting Stack (representing with @detroitdad's capper)
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Ending stack...
1603986689911.png
 

Ben8257

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Our Zombie World Edition tournament set uses plaques. T100,000 is a smaller size, and the T500,000 and the T1,000,000 are the same, larger size.

So the thinking on the set went along these lines...

Chips for the 4 lowest denoms (T500-T25,000), plaques for the top 3 (T100,000-T1,000,000). However, the T1,000,000 rarely hits the table, unless requested. I just had a little OCD with a set ending at half-million, and a million makes the set rebuy-frenzy proof for less cost. Storage space was also a concern, so T1,000,000 cuts the storage space requirements for T500,000s roughly in half. So while I have 3 plaque denoms in the set, I only needed 2 sizes.

So why two sizes vs a single size?

We made cardboard cutouts to the dimensions of each of the plaques sizes. We order a lot of stuff from Amazon, so cardboard boxes are pretty common around here. This helped me get both a visual on storage requirements, and to put them into simulated play.

Our tournament starting stack (9-14 players T1,000,000 /15-20 players T500,000) starts with 3xT100,000 in each stack. We focused on ease to port between tables, one handed, with little risk of dropping, even if you had already amassed 1/2 the plaques at the table. Of course we also looked at how they paired with chip size, and a full table.

I also wanted the same size as the plaques in Casino Royale. Careful study of the scene where Le Chiffre has his plaques atop 2 barrels of chips gave me the approximate size needed.

The Casino Royale plaques were determined to be too big for carrying around, so those were reserved for the T500,000 and the T1,000,000. They are extremely unlikely to hit the table before we get to the final table, so their cross-table portability was not an issue. The smaller size was then selected based on it's size relative to the larger plaques, and the chips. They are easy, even for a small hand, to carry a dozen or so.

The larger plaques usually come into play around the T5000 color-up (level 12). As you can see from the our knockout graph below, there are generally 7 players remaining at that time. Plenty of room to spread out, even if an eliminated player acts as a dedicated dealer for the table.
View attachment 563887
Average knockouts per level. Red line= knockouts, Green line is a trendline. Levels 4, 8, 12, and 16 are breaks. Players may sacrifice chips to get a fresh stack during the rebuy period, which is why there are a few "top-off" eliminations in level 8 (last chance to rebuy).

When the bigger plaques hit the felt, they are immediately noticed, which is why I really like the set. When a new denom hits the table in a all 39mm chip game, not everyone notices. There is no missing the big plaques, even among the other plaques.

Starting Stack (representing with @detroitdad's capper)
View attachment 563892

Ending stack...
View attachment 563897
As always a truly fantastic thought out post!! Exactly the man I was hoping to hear from... but again it sounds like the larger plaques even though barely put in play were mostly for the wow factor.

Do you feel like if they were all the same size would really take away from the wow factor? I know you said space was an issue in storage, not on the table. Do you feel like storage would be easier if they were the same size? Or the wow factor is worth the inconvenience and extra brain power for storage?

Also I agree for smaller tourneys as in 20 or less the number of plaques is not much of an issue. But larger games it would become an issue as at that point your work horse chips are actually the plaques.

Example our CDI set is massive and many may ask why... our recent game in Ohio was T20k starting stacks with unlimited half priced full stack rebuys (rebuys also incurred a small blind button ante)... I didn't know what to expect as I was told one local rebought 9 times last year.
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Most would probably look at this picture and think, this guy has no idea what he is doing!

So, I decided to go with starting stacks of 16/16/12/12 so there were ton's of chips in play already and rebuys would be easier to give a bounty and 4 octagons. Based off 40 players and the regular chip ups needed in the set, I went with 3 rebuts per person and a little heavy on the T25ks to keep my OCD down and my racks even... plus in an emergency I could buy $5ks off the big stack for additional rebuys if things got crazy!! Haha

We only had 18 players because of covid, we barely even scratched the surface of this monster!! But it's ready for next time!!

I went with Octagons mainly because if the size and how many I thought would be on the table, with space in mind! (Also ever finding that many original plaques would never happen!! Oh and they cost upwards of $15 each now!) These only cost me about $1.25 each... much better when you need a ton of them!!

Someday I plan to also make $100k plaques... yes this is contradictory to this whole thread, but with the octagons. I am actually introducing a 3rd shape in the line up and can continue with higher denoms if so inclined. (But they will be small and all the same size!! )
 

Ben8257

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Of course this could have been done more reasonably... but I love giving a home game the feel of monster stacks!!

Hoping next year to talk @toynoob into 25k starting stacks with 20/20/15/15 starting stacks!! Pretty confident I can get the set filled in before then!! 70 chip starting stacks for 40 players!!
 

toynoob

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Of course this could have been done more reasonably... but I love giving a home game the feel of monster stacks!!

Hoping next year to talk @toynoob into 25k starting stacks with 20/20/15/15 starting stacks!! Pretty confident I can get the set filled in before then!! 70 chip starting stacks for 40 players!!
It's your game I'll just show up :tup:
 

Ben8257

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It's your game I'll just show up :tup:
No sir, it's your structure! I just bring ridiculous numbers of chips and try to get them all in play!! Lmao

You have to admit that the 16/16/12/12 starting stacks was smooth as butter!! Almost zero time lost in change making! With 8/8/6/6 usually by the 3rd hand change making begins and never stops!! But that discussion has occured many times over.
 

natumes

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@Poker Zombie how is it playing with only plaques at later levels? I've been thinking a lot about it and I feel like for tournaments I'd prefer to just have chips to make quick and easy bets, but they would be fun for cash games to really have a visual impact of the bet size when it's pushed in. Maybe plaques just for the top tournament denomination since so few get into play anyways?
 

Ben8257

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Loved every second right up until mothface knocked me out!
Can't wait for the next one man!! We had an amazing time!! I told you Brie is brutal in tourney play man!! I bet on her when you had her 4:1!! Ok... it was only 50 cents... I asked your boy if he wanted to put $20 on it.. he said, I get Chris?? Oh hell no!! Lmao
 

Ben8257

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@Poker Zombie how is it playing with only plaques at later levels? I've been thinking a lot about it and I feel like for tournaments I'd prefer to just have chips to make quick and easy bets, but they would be fun for cash games to really have a visual impact of the bet size when it's pushed in. Maybe plaques just for the top tournament denomination since so few get into play anyways?
We have $20 plaques in @FordPickup92 PCA secondary cash set, while the $25s are amazing! Every single time we play them people always ask for the plaques instead. The set is amazing and top notch, don't get me wrong but the plaques really set it apart and everyone loves them!! Sorry no pics.. she has some!
 

toynoob

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Can't wait for the next one man!! We had an amazing time!! I told you Brie is brutal in tourney play man!! I bet on her when you had her 4:1!! Ok... it was only 50 cents... I asked your boy if he wanted to put $20 on it.. he said, I get Chris?? Oh hell no!! Lmao
It would take some serious analysis, but I love to know how much money I lost to the zombie tax, I bet it was easily over 50,000. That really did play a part in it as well as mentally. She played great and hung in there and the human got rewarded!
 

FordPickup92

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We have $20 plaques in @FordPickup92 PCA secondary cash set, while the $25s are amazing! Every single time we play them people always ask for the plaques instead. The set is amazing and top notch, don't get me wrong but the plaques really set it apart and everyone loves them!! Sorry no pics.. she has some!
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Easylife

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@Poker Zombie how is it playing with only plaques at later levels? I've been thinking a lot about it and I feel like for tournaments I'd prefer to just have chips to make quick and easy bets, but they would be fun for cash games to really have a visual impact of the bet size when it's pushed in. Maybe plaques just for the top tournament denomination since so few get into play anyways?
Was thinking along similar lines to this and be interested in people's experience as never used plaques but was considering getting some $100s instead of chips for a cash set I was going to build, rest chips.
 

allforcharity

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Increasing plaque size as denomination goes up is fairly standard. But, the form should follow the function, and you do come to a point of diminishing returns depending on the number of denominations you need in a plaque.

For a cash or tourney set where standard chips (or jetons) are used for the lower denominations, you usually save the plaques only for the highest denomination or maybe the first two. There are many reasonable explanations for this, not least of which is the high cost of the plaques themselves, but also as a way of tracking how many rebuys/reloads have happened across the table. I think if the top two denoms in play were plaques, there is less drive to make them different sizes, since there will probably not be an incredible number in play and you can get away with visual differences in colour scheme.

A dedicated plaque set for game which requires 3 or more denominations probably does benefit from different sizes, to avoid dirty stacks based on size alone. The Les Ambassadeurs sample plaque set has 5 sizes/denominations ranging from GBP5 to GBP500. I plan to make a dedicated baccarat set (sometime in the future) as a tribute to their design.
 

Poker Zombie

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Do you feel like if they were all the same size would really take away from the wow factor? I know you said space was an issue in storage, not on the table. Do you feel like storage would be easier if they were the same size? Or the wow factor is worth the inconvenience and extra brain power for storage?
If they were all the larger, Casino Royale movie size, the set would be cumbersome moving between tables. Those large plaques just aren't made to be portable. I guess that's why even in the older movies, Bond never collected his plaques to cash out. He had some lackey transport them. If they were all the smaller credit card size, not only would the wow factor have been lost, but it would have appeared to be a cheaper version of the popular movie.

Of course, this was just what I was looking to do. I'm not suggesting that two (or more) sizes are always better, but in this particular set I felt it was undoubtedly the best option.

@Poker Zombie how is it playing with only plaques at later levels? I've been thinking a lot about it and I feel like for tournaments I'd prefer to just have chips to make quick and easy bets, but they would be fun for cash games to really have a visual impact of the bet size when it's pushed in. Maybe plaques just for the top tournament denomination since so few get into play anyways?
The last chips come off the table at the level 16 break, and the game is 2-3 handed at that point. Players have the choice to either take or skip that break, as there's probably less than 20 minutes or so left in the tournament. If no break is taken, the chips remain (they may be colored up in pots if bet). But smokers be smokers, and pee breaks are required with the amount of alcohol consumed, so the break is often taken - though it may be shorter.

At that late stage of the tournament, chips (or plaques) are barely needed. Everyone basically knows who has who covered. Blinds after the break are 500,000-1,000,000. The most we've ever had on the table at that point has been 13.5 million in chips, so it's just a matter of making the win official, or a short stack trying to spoil for a better cash out.

Basically, I designed the set to play similar to the Casino Royale movie. I always make myself a Vesper, have a heart attack, and have to rebuy. It is so similar it's scary - except I've never finished better than 2nd on the set.

Shit. I use an inhaler, and finish second.

I'm Le Chiffre.

:nailbite: :jawdrop: :dead:
 
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Ben8257

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If they were all the larger, Casino Royale movie size, the set would be cumbersome moving between tables. Those large plaques just aren't made to be portable. I guess that's why even in the older movies, Bond never collected his plaques to cash out. He had some lackey transport them. If they were all the smaller credit card size, not only would the wow factor have been lost, but it would have appeared to be a cheaper version of the popular movie.

Of course, this was just what I was looking to do. I'm not suggesting that two (or more) sizes are always better, but in this particular set I felt it was undoubtedly the best option.


The last chips come off the table at the level 16 break, and the game is 2-3 handed at that point. Players have the choice to either take or skip that break, as there's probably less than 20 minutes or so left in the tournament. If no break is taken, the chips remain (the may be colored up in pots if bet). But smokers be smokers, and pee breaks are required with the amount of alcohol consumed, so the break is often taken - though it may be shorter.

At that late stage of the tournament, chips (or plaques) are barely needed. Everyone basically knows who has who covered. Blinds after the break are 500,000-1,000,000. The most we've ever had on the table at that point has been 13.5 million in chips, so it's just a matter of making the win official, or a short stack trying to spoil for a better cash out.

Basically, I designed the set to play similar to the Casino Royale movie. I always make myself a Vesper, have a heart attack, and have to rebuy. It is so similar it's scary - except I've never finished better than 2nd on the set.

Shit. I use an inhaler, and finish second.

I'm Le Chiffre.

:nailbite: :jawdrop: :dead:
Unfortunately couldn't hit the love and laughing my ass off button at the same time, but again truly quality post my friend!! Hahaha any cash position in a tourney is a win in my book!! If I get my money back and had a great time, not only do I rarely record a 1st place I don't honestly care... let's get together shoot the shit! And play some cards!
 
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