Very rare someone does that and since he knew about the cameras seems like he’d still do it no matter how much security you add to your game. Like you said, cheaters gunna cheat no matter what you do.
Cheatas Gonna Cheat (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Trihonda
- Start date
I posted about my one and only experience here: Sketchy Behaviour.
The protagonist, Matthew, has not been invited to any more of our games. One of the sad things is that the guy sat next to him has not come back and his wife told my wife that he doesn't like people "who takes things too seriously".
Lesson learned:
- I hold the chips and cash and keep them in bird cage or case
- Starting stacks are always counted out before hand (usually get one of the kids to do this); easy to compare and make sure all are the same
- Rebuy stacks are always full or half barrel of the same chip (e.g. T10k rebuy will be 20x T500 or 10x T1000); drinking and counting chips don't mix
- At my friend's place where I bring the chips, he handles the money and I handle the chips
- Not that this was an issue but we always use a different deck of cards for every game (i.e. the same deck doesn't get used for consecutive games)
The protagonist, Matthew, has not been invited to any more of our games. One of the sad things is that the guy sat next to him has not come back and his wife told my wife that he doesn't like people "who takes things too seriously".
Lesson learned:
- I hold the chips and cash and keep them in bird cage or case
- Starting stacks are always counted out before hand (usually get one of the kids to do this); easy to compare and make sure all are the same
- Rebuy stacks are always full or half barrel of the same chip (e.g. T10k rebuy will be 20x T500 or 10x T1000); drinking and counting chips don't mix
- At my friend's place where I bring the chips, he handles the money and I handle the chips
- Not that this was an issue but we always use a different deck of cards for every game (i.e. the same deck doesn't get used for consecutive games)
I'll do pretty much the same thing. The only difference being that though my rebuy stacks are not uniform, they are defined and setup in advance.
Old State
Full House
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Ok. So are they mostly work acquaintances? Not trying to be a contrarian but I’ve had a lot of work “friends” I don’t really know or trust that well.
I think the picking the people you play with is way more important than the chips you use. I’ve found most card players to be more honest than the average person. I think most respect that there can be a lot of money on the table and want it protected. Just last night a player told another they put to much in the pot on at least 3 occasions where that person stood to profit from it.
It has also be a common thing with most of the people I’ve played with over the years to double check players when they are cashing out.
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One alternative to using totally unique chips in your game: use high-end chips where their actual cash market value is more expensive than the value they are being used for during game play. If players want to bring in extra 25c and $1 chips from outside (that cost them $3-$5 each) and then cash out and leave them, that's okay by me.
A bigger concern than outside chips being brought in, is my chips walking off. Gotta trust who you play with -- sometimes larger event participation numbers isn't worth the risk..
I've had two other situations where I knew cheating went on. Both happened in the first real game I played in for money. I at first thought cheating was rampant in poker, but I 've now played for almost 40 years and can say it's actually rare to the best of my knowledge. I'll tell the two stories in two different posts.
BG, those are great points above! I've lost one chip in a chip set in all the years that I never recovered. I've sometimes had a chip missing, but it usually shows up. A couple of times players got home and realized they had one in their pocket and brought it back. I wish they had told me afterward. Those were for tournaments, and they were low value chips.
Collusion Cheating
The first game for money I ever played in was a $.01 ante with $.10 limit, and no limit on raises. It was a game held in my dorm in college. This took place in September. The second night I played, this situation came up.
It was a dealer’s choice game, and most of the games involved wild cards. This hand did not. We had six that night. I was the new guy; the others had played together for a while. I’ll assign three key players names.
Jack and Ricky didn’t live in our dorm like the other four, and they didn’t get along. Twice in two games, they had almost gotten into fights over stupid stuff. It seemed personal be Jack and Ricky. They made several snide remarks to each other. Ricky was the game banker, even though another guy hosted and owned the chips.
Someone called hold ’em, a game I’d only played a couple of hands of. I don’t remember where the dealer was, but I think it was to my immediate left. I got a J9 (don’t remember if suited or not). I was so new at that game that seemed like an OK hand.
Ricky was UTG, and he bet $.10. His left folded, and then Jack called. Cowboy, to my right, picked his cards up like he usually did. He folded, but when he did, he turned his cards toward me and I saw a 9 but not the other card. Cowboy was not good at handling cards. I called, dealer folded.
The flop came JJ9. What a great flop for me! Ricky bets $.10, Jack raises him $.10, and I raised $.10. The three of us got into a raising contest. I finally called, and they both called.
The turn came 9. Ricky bets $.10, Jack raises him $.10, and I raised $.10. The three of us got into another raising contest. I realized that at the moment, there was only one card out that could tie me. However, I did think it was possible one of them had a higher pair. Eventually I called. The pot was pretty big.
The river came X – no help for flush, straight, and low like a 6. Ricky bets $.10, Jack raises him $.10, and I raised $.10. The three of us got into yet another raising contest. I couldn’t figure out what one of them was playing on. Then it hit me what I believed was happening.
So instead of calling, I just kept raising until one of them tapped out. I then raised another $.10, I rolled over my cards and said, “If one of you shows the other J, I’ll prove you both cheated.” They both folded, but what followed was a somewhat heated exchange where they denied cheating. However, they didn’t show their hands. They were so insulted they stormed out.
I believed that Ricky and Jack were too good for one of them to have played with no real hand in that situation. One of them was in only to force me out, or to build the pot to keep me in knowing I’d lose. Of course, I had info about the fourth 9 that they didn’t have. That’s a key reason I caught what was happening.
Those left were mad at me. I explained what happened. Though no one could come up with more than one card either of them could have had that was worth playing, all insisted they weren’t colluding. I asked how often they got in raising contests with each other and eventually others folded. It happened almost every game. I asked how often did both show their cards – never. However, they didn’t want to believe when one guy had a nut hand, they had some sort of signal, and they’d raise each other like crazy – with insults flying back and forth. Sometimes the loser would be angry and they’d almost get in a fight. But the loser never showed, and they never accused each other of cheating. They accused each other of lots of other stuff.
The guys pointed out they didn’t even like each other. The two dorms they lived in were opposite directions from ours. (So?) That constituted their proof that Ricky and Jack weren’t cheating. It didn’t do it for me, and I had played the hand.
I agreed to take over banker duties, and they told me I had to find another player. Then they blasted me for accusing people of cheating without proof. Wow!
All the talk about what they would do if they caught a guy cheating was just that – talk! I think the reality is they didn’t want to believe those guys had cheated them. I have found that is a common reaction among poker players. No one wants to believe they were cheated. Moreover, cheaters can be pretty bold.
BG, those are great points above! I've lost one chip in a chip set in all the years that I never recovered. I've sometimes had a chip missing, but it usually shows up. A couple of times players got home and realized they had one in their pocket and brought it back. I wish they had told me afterward. Those were for tournaments, and they were low value chips.
Collusion Cheating
The first game for money I ever played in was a $.01 ante with $.10 limit, and no limit on raises. It was a game held in my dorm in college. This took place in September. The second night I played, this situation came up.
It was a dealer’s choice game, and most of the games involved wild cards. This hand did not. We had six that night. I was the new guy; the others had played together for a while. I’ll assign three key players names.
Jack and Ricky didn’t live in our dorm like the other four, and they didn’t get along. Twice in two games, they had almost gotten into fights over stupid stuff. It seemed personal be Jack and Ricky. They made several snide remarks to each other. Ricky was the game banker, even though another guy hosted and owned the chips.
Someone called hold ’em, a game I’d only played a couple of hands of. I don’t remember where the dealer was, but I think it was to my immediate left. I got a J9 (don’t remember if suited or not). I was so new at that game that seemed like an OK hand.
Ricky was UTG, and he bet $.10. His left folded, and then Jack called. Cowboy, to my right, picked his cards up like he usually did. He folded, but when he did, he turned his cards toward me and I saw a 9 but not the other card. Cowboy was not good at handling cards. I called, dealer folded.
The flop came JJ9. What a great flop for me! Ricky bets $.10, Jack raises him $.10, and I raised $.10. The three of us got into a raising contest. I finally called, and they both called.
The turn came 9. Ricky bets $.10, Jack raises him $.10, and I raised $.10. The three of us got into another raising contest. I realized that at the moment, there was only one card out that could tie me. However, I did think it was possible one of them had a higher pair. Eventually I called. The pot was pretty big.
The river came X – no help for flush, straight, and low like a 6. Ricky bets $.10, Jack raises him $.10, and I raised $.10. The three of us got into yet another raising contest. I couldn’t figure out what one of them was playing on. Then it hit me what I believed was happening.
So instead of calling, I just kept raising until one of them tapped out. I then raised another $.10, I rolled over my cards and said, “If one of you shows the other J, I’ll prove you both cheated.” They both folded, but what followed was a somewhat heated exchange where they denied cheating. However, they didn’t show their hands. They were so insulted they stormed out.
I believed that Ricky and Jack were too good for one of them to have played with no real hand in that situation. One of them was in only to force me out, or to build the pot to keep me in knowing I’d lose. Of course, I had info about the fourth 9 that they didn’t have. That’s a key reason I caught what was happening.
Those left were mad at me. I explained what happened. Though no one could come up with more than one card either of them could have had that was worth playing, all insisted they weren’t colluding. I asked how often they got in raising contests with each other and eventually others folded. It happened almost every game. I asked how often did both show their cards – never. However, they didn’t want to believe when one guy had a nut hand, they had some sort of signal, and they’d raise each other like crazy – with insults flying back and forth. Sometimes the loser would be angry and they’d almost get in a fight. But the loser never showed, and they never accused each other of cheating. They accused each other of lots of other stuff.
The guys pointed out they didn’t even like each other. The two dorms they lived in were opposite directions from ours. (So?) That constituted their proof that Ricky and Jack weren’t cheating. It didn’t do it for me, and I had played the hand.
I agreed to take over banker duties, and they told me I had to find another player. Then they blasted me for accusing people of cheating without proof. Wow!
All the talk about what they would do if they caught a guy cheating was just that – talk! I think the reality is they didn’t want to believe those guys had cheated them. I have found that is a common reaction among poker players. No one wants to believe they were cheated. Moreover, cheaters can be pretty bold.
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The very next week in that game, I found something else.
Cowboy
The following week, the four left played. They were still ticked, and not happy that I hadn’t found a fifth player, but we played. We played, just the four of us, for several months.
The next week, Cowboy caught my attention. We played with two decks. He was horrible at shuffling, and followed sloppy card handling procedures. He didn’t offer cards to be cut when he dealt, and no one thought it was a big deal. He obviously didn’t have the skills to cheat. But he could arrange the deck to give players what he wanted them to have and no one would really catch it because no one watched him prepare the deck, except me.
Cowboy was a nickname because his parents owned a ranch. He seemed the exact opposite of a Cowboy, so the nickname wasn’t exactly a compliment. He was weird. He was annoying, but had money and I thought tried to buy friends. Anyway…
I noticed that night he stacked the deck. He’d sometimes pull cards out of the discard pile and add them to his hand, usually doing something that caused laughter or discussion. Others seem distracted. At one point he said, “Who wants pizza? I’m buying.” OK! What a great guy and free pizza was always a good deal.
I was too sensitive to accuse him of cheating. At the end of the night, as I cashed people out, Cowboy was a net loser; I was the big winner. So a complaint or accusation would seem really out of line.
I noticed over the next few months there were really two different Cowboys. One was a cheat, and the other was a decent poker player. Only one of them showed up on a night. The cheating Cowboy always bought pizza!
In March, I finally found another player. Joe came to our game, and afterwards, as he and I were leaving, he said, “I could have sworn I saw Cowboy pick up discards and put them in his hand.”
Me: You probably did.
Him: You saw it too! Why didn’t you say something?
Me: Why didn’t you say something?
Him: I wasn’t sure what I saw.
Me: Come to my room and I’ll show you something.
At my room, I told Joe about Ricky and Jack, and how I took over the banking duties. Then I showed him the records I kept. Not only did I keep a game sheet for each game, I kept a separate sheet on each player. I showed him Cowboy’s sheet. There were 2 sets of columns entries.
On the left were the games where I saw him cheating, and it was about half the games. On the right were the games where he didn’t cheat.
I showed Joe on the left, Cowboy lost an average of $3. On the right, he averaged winning $2. I was the only player who averaged winning more (about $3). I said, “I didn’t say anything because of how I see it. I don’t think cheating is right. But Cowboy is literally paying us $5 for the privilege of cheating, and he’s buying us pizza when he cheats. The best punishment is to let him keep cheating.”
Joe asked how I caught it and if I’d done anything. I told him I was always messing around with Cowboy when he cheated. For example, in 5-card draw, one night I had three of a kind. Instead of drawing two cards, which I knew he expected, I only drew one card. That meant Cowboy wasn’t going to get the cards he needed to make his hand. Cowboy said, “Only 1? Are you sure?” I acted as innocent as I could, but inside I was laughing. I won the hand with my three of a kind.
I told Joe I usually knew within the first round if Cowboy was going to cheat. Joe couldn’t understand how Cowboy lost. I said it was because Cowboy spent his time those nights trying to figure out how to cheat and covering up for his actions instead of just playing. For example, one night, the first hand, someone, not Cowboy, called 7 card stud. I started with (I’m making up my hand, but the effect is accurate) 6h, 7h, 8h. Cowboy had an A showing. He bet $.10. I just called, as did others. My next card was 9h, but Cowboy had another A showing. He bet $.10 again, and I just called. My next card gave me a straight; Cowboy got no help. He bet $.10, and I raised. All who stayed in just called. My last up card gave me a straight. Cowboy bet $.10, and I raised. My last card was no help. Again, he bet and I raised. I think there were three in the hand, but the others just called.
I showed my flush, certain I had won. Cowboy showed his four aces! His first four cards were aces. He should have, at the least, re-raised me every time, but he never did. It was very odd. However, it didn’t take me long to realize when he was planning to cheat, he did incredibly stupid stuff like that.
Also on the nights he cheated, he was a calling station. He rarely folded. He was trying to avoid any suspicion. Mostly I had fun messing with him because his cheating was so crude, it was easy to fold when I shouldn’t have to mess up the card run for him, or draw extra cards on draw, or something. Sometimes I just folded. I told Joe I didn’t want to be known as the guy who kept falsely accusing people of cheating, and it was fun to play.
I also showed Joe that not one single player was hurt, on average, by Joe’s cheating. It either had no effect on one, but for the others, they did better the nights Cowboy cheated. Therefore, Cowboy wasn’t hurting anyone except himself.
His actions never made sense to me. The best I could ever make of it was he wasn’t cheating for the money. He had some psychological need to get away with it. On the other hand, maybe secretly he wanted to be caught. Several times, he asked players if they were sure they wanted the number of cards they asked for in draw, or he would say, “You’re folding that hand?” in stud games. It was very blatant to me, but I wasn’t sure anyone else knew. I was pretty sure they didn’t want to know. Maybe they knew but didn’t want to mess up the free pizza. When we ordered on the other nights, we didn’t get nearly as good of pizza.
Like I said, Cowboy was one weird guy. If he’d just played good cards, he and I would likely have been the only net winners. He definitely would have had more money, and I less since I perhaps benefitted the very most from his cheating in terms of cash won. I couldn’t have afforded Shaky’s pizza, which I thought was the best in town. He wouldn’t have paid for all that and tipped the delivery guy, never wanting us to pay anything. “Just my gift to y’all for all the fun” he would say.
Cowboy
The following week, the four left played. They were still ticked, and not happy that I hadn’t found a fifth player, but we played. We played, just the four of us, for several months.
The next week, Cowboy caught my attention. We played with two decks. He was horrible at shuffling, and followed sloppy card handling procedures. He didn’t offer cards to be cut when he dealt, and no one thought it was a big deal. He obviously didn’t have the skills to cheat. But he could arrange the deck to give players what he wanted them to have and no one would really catch it because no one watched him prepare the deck, except me.
Cowboy was a nickname because his parents owned a ranch. He seemed the exact opposite of a Cowboy, so the nickname wasn’t exactly a compliment. He was weird. He was annoying, but had money and I thought tried to buy friends. Anyway…
I noticed that night he stacked the deck. He’d sometimes pull cards out of the discard pile and add them to his hand, usually doing something that caused laughter or discussion. Others seem distracted. At one point he said, “Who wants pizza? I’m buying.” OK! What a great guy and free pizza was always a good deal.
I was too sensitive to accuse him of cheating. At the end of the night, as I cashed people out, Cowboy was a net loser; I was the big winner. So a complaint or accusation would seem really out of line.
I noticed over the next few months there were really two different Cowboys. One was a cheat, and the other was a decent poker player. Only one of them showed up on a night. The cheating Cowboy always bought pizza!
In March, I finally found another player. Joe came to our game, and afterwards, as he and I were leaving, he said, “I could have sworn I saw Cowboy pick up discards and put them in his hand.”
Me: You probably did.
Him: You saw it too! Why didn’t you say something?
Me: Why didn’t you say something?
Him: I wasn’t sure what I saw.
Me: Come to my room and I’ll show you something.
At my room, I told Joe about Ricky and Jack, and how I took over the banking duties. Then I showed him the records I kept. Not only did I keep a game sheet for each game, I kept a separate sheet on each player. I showed him Cowboy’s sheet. There were 2 sets of columns entries.
On the left were the games where I saw him cheating, and it was about half the games. On the right were the games where he didn’t cheat.
I showed Joe on the left, Cowboy lost an average of $3. On the right, he averaged winning $2. I was the only player who averaged winning more (about $3). I said, “I didn’t say anything because of how I see it. I don’t think cheating is right. But Cowboy is literally paying us $5 for the privilege of cheating, and he’s buying us pizza when he cheats. The best punishment is to let him keep cheating.”
Joe asked how I caught it and if I’d done anything. I told him I was always messing around with Cowboy when he cheated. For example, in 5-card draw, one night I had three of a kind. Instead of drawing two cards, which I knew he expected, I only drew one card. That meant Cowboy wasn’t going to get the cards he needed to make his hand. Cowboy said, “Only 1? Are you sure?” I acted as innocent as I could, but inside I was laughing. I won the hand with my three of a kind.
I told Joe I usually knew within the first round if Cowboy was going to cheat. Joe couldn’t understand how Cowboy lost. I said it was because Cowboy spent his time those nights trying to figure out how to cheat and covering up for his actions instead of just playing. For example, one night, the first hand, someone, not Cowboy, called 7 card stud. I started with (I’m making up my hand, but the effect is accurate) 6h, 7h, 8h. Cowboy had an A showing. He bet $.10. I just called, as did others. My next card was 9h, but Cowboy had another A showing. He bet $.10 again, and I just called. My next card gave me a straight; Cowboy got no help. He bet $.10, and I raised. All who stayed in just called. My last up card gave me a straight. Cowboy bet $.10, and I raised. My last card was no help. Again, he bet and I raised. I think there were three in the hand, but the others just called.
I showed my flush, certain I had won. Cowboy showed his four aces! His first four cards were aces. He should have, at the least, re-raised me every time, but he never did. It was very odd. However, it didn’t take me long to realize when he was planning to cheat, he did incredibly stupid stuff like that.
Also on the nights he cheated, he was a calling station. He rarely folded. He was trying to avoid any suspicion. Mostly I had fun messing with him because his cheating was so crude, it was easy to fold when I shouldn’t have to mess up the card run for him, or draw extra cards on draw, or something. Sometimes I just folded. I told Joe I didn’t want to be known as the guy who kept falsely accusing people of cheating, and it was fun to play.
I also showed Joe that not one single player was hurt, on average, by Joe’s cheating. It either had no effect on one, but for the others, they did better the nights Cowboy cheated. Therefore, Cowboy wasn’t hurting anyone except himself.
His actions never made sense to me. The best I could ever make of it was he wasn’t cheating for the money. He had some psychological need to get away with it. On the other hand, maybe secretly he wanted to be caught. Several times, he asked players if they were sure they wanted the number of cards they asked for in draw, or he would say, “You’re folding that hand?” in stud games. It was very blatant to me, but I wasn’t sure anyone else knew. I was pretty sure they didn’t want to know. Maybe they knew but didn’t want to mess up the free pizza. When we ordered on the other nights, we didn’t get nearly as good of pizza.
Like I said, Cowboy was one weird guy. If he’d just played good cards, he and I would likely have been the only net winners. He definitely would have had more money, and I less since I perhaps benefitted the very most from his cheating in terms of cash won. I couldn’t have afforded Shaky’s pizza, which I thought was the best in town. He wouldn’t have paid for all that and tipped the delivery guy, never wanting us to pay anything. “Just my gift to y’all for all the fun” he would say.
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Gobbs, was he still actively in the hand when that occurred? If he's an active player, that's definitely cheating. I guess either way, it was probably technically cheating, but I'm not sure it falls in the same category as when a player is still active.
Many times I've seen someone, when cleaning up the deck, picking up discards (stub) in such a way they could see them. They may even pick up the rest of the deck and hold them in such a way that they could see several cards. That may give them info not available to everyone. I'd even say that is relatively common in self-dealt games.
Cowboy's picking up discards came when he either dropped his hand (I'm sure deliberately), or putting his card hand on the table and moving the cards when others were not looking.
Many times I've seen someone, when cleaning up the deck, picking up discards (stub) in such a way they could see them. They may even pick up the rest of the deck and hold them in such a way that they could see several cards. That may give them info not available to everyone. I'd even say that is relatively common in self-dealt games.
Cowboy's picking up discards came when he either dropped his hand (I'm sure deliberately), or putting his card hand on the table and moving the cards when others were not looking.
If people want to sneak PCR v2s into my 2/5 cash game, I will gladly host a special Cheat-All-You-Want session...
But I’m keeping ’em.
Anyway: In general, I think cheating is very rare in private games held among friends. Maybe moreso in games where the host casts a wide net for players.
Some of the only potential cheating scenarios I’ve encountered:
* Two guys (one who had been in prison, and talked nonstop, and a younger sidekick) who seemed to clean up whevener they were at the same table, but who were huge losing players when not. Many thought there was some signaling going on. They aren’t welcome at my place.
* Two guys who worked construction together, who when I met them was warned by a somewhat paranoid friend that they signal each other. I have since played with them many times, and am convinced this is *not* the case (having gotten to know their characters, and also noticed their poor results).
* The last is the difficult one. I play sometimes with a guy who used to be a pro in Vegas, and is a really good player. He’s a consistent big winner, and understands the game brilliantly. He should not need to cheat.
But he is constantly accused of cheating by weaker, losing players.
So far, I do not think this person cheats in the most flagrant senses of the word. I do think he sometimes... works edges of the game. For example, I’ve spotted him (at a game hosted by his best friend) casually look through the muck if he can get away with it.
This guy is easily smart enough to get an advantage from profiling players based on what they discarded (whereas some fish could review the muck every hand and never gain an edge).
I’ve also seen him deal some astounding bad beats. I have not decided if this is ordinary variance, or by design, but I generally resist attributing such hands to cheating. (One-outers do happen. Just not very often.)
Overall, I actually find it interesting to play with this person, because I learn a lot from tracking his opening ranges/continuation frequencies, bluffing strategies, etc. Still, I also watch him carefully for any hint of angling, observe how he deals, and have put him on notice about the muck thing. Jury’s still deliberating on this guy.
Some of the only potential cheating scenarios I’ve encountered:
* Two guys (one who had been in prison, and talked nonstop, and a younger sidekick) who seemed to clean up whevener they were at the same table, but who were huge losing players when not. Many thought there was some signaling going on. They aren’t welcome at my place.
* Two guys who worked construction together, who when I met them was warned by a somewhat paranoid friend that they signal each other. I have since played with them many times, and am convinced this is *not* the case (having gotten to know their characters, and also noticed their poor results).
* The last is the difficult one. I play sometimes with a guy who used to be a pro in Vegas, and is a really good player. He’s a consistent big winner, and understands the game brilliantly. He should not need to cheat.
But he is constantly accused of cheating by weaker, losing players.
So far, I do not think this person cheats in the most flagrant senses of the word. I do think he sometimes... works edges of the game. For example, I’ve spotted him (at a game hosted by his best friend) casually look through the muck if he can get away with it.
This guy is easily smart enough to get an advantage from profiling players based on what they discarded (whereas some fish could review the muck every hand and never gain an edge).
I’ve also seen him deal some astounding bad beats. I have not decided if this is ordinary variance, or by design, but I generally resist attributing such hands to cheating. (One-outers do happen. Just not very often.)
Overall, I actually find it interesting to play with this person, because I learn a lot from tracking his opening ranges/continuation frequencies, bluffing strategies, etc. Still, I also watch him carefully for any hint of angling, observe how he deals, and have put him on notice about the muck thing. Jury’s still deliberating on this guy.
Old State
Full House
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We had a guy in our group who got real good really quick. He quit his job and has been a pro for at least 10 years now. Early on many thought he may be up to something and I was one of them. The reason being is that in every one of the 30+ person tournaments we used to host in the early mid 2000’s, he always seemed just to win just one or two massive pots that catapulted him to a victory. Same in cash games. And I honestly can say, that I never once saw him win one of those gigantic pots where he entered with the best hand or didn’t need to catch some cards to win. Or to say I never ever once witnessed him win a crucial pot without putting a beat on two of three of the other players. Always seemed odd to me.
Now I have to give him the benefit of the doubt being that he has been successful playing poker as a pro for a long time. That said, after many years of absence, he came to play in a $2/5 game my old crew hosted. He was up only about $200 ($500 buy in) after about 5 hours of play and then he gets into a big hand with the chip leader.
Hand went something like this: the player under the gun raises to around $12. The pro calls. Button, who what’s the chip leader, reraises to $60. Pro calls. UG folds. Flop comes A * 6. Pro checks, CL bets around $100. Pro calls. Turn brings a K. Pro checks and CL bets big. Can’t remember exactly but around $300. Pro thinks then calls. River brings another 6. Pro checks CL thinks for a while, acts frustrated, and moves all in. Pro calls. CL turns over AA and pro has K6. We are all like WTF? “You called a reraise with K6.”
So after many years of not playing with him the same shit happens. Like I said, he must be legitimately good to have been successful this long but every major pot I’ve ever seen him win was similar to that.
PaulsonCollector
Pair
In my area lives and hosts one guy who is known among many other homegame-players as a cheater. I never played with him but has been warned to do so in at least 3 different homegames. All tell the same story. At some point there is a cigarette break or sth during the cashgame, they return, he cuts the cards and he wins a giant pot versus 2 to 4 other players when he entered as the huge underdoge. One homegame reported a AQT-Flop with AA,QQ,TT in the hand and him holding 99. 4 way all-in, guess who's won? And these stories do happen over and over again. One group claims they did proof him a cheater, but before being able to confront him, he's gotten a call and had to leave immediately.
Besides of that, I don't know if I have ever been cheated on at a Pokertable. It surely is possible, especially signaling might be an issue. I once noticed a marked Ace in one of my decks, I simply replaced it in between hands.
Besides of that, I don't know if I have ever been cheated on at a Pokertable. It surely is possible, especially signaling might be an issue. I once noticed a marked Ace in one of my decks, I simply replaced it in between hands.
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Many years ago before the casino opened there was a big game run in the VFW hall that had 15-20 tables going every weekend. There was all kinds of dirty play going on there so I avoided it as much as possible unless there was no other game available.
Much like @TexRex described I was at a table with 2 guys that would keep raising each other trapping the in between players and their money before one of them would finally “give up” before showdown. I don’t know how nobody else realized what was happening but I did and I was only in my early 20’s then. Well I kept folding until I finally got AA and limped in and just kept calling all their bets. I won a huge pot off them and left.
Much like @TexRex described I was at a table with 2 guys that would keep raising each other trapping the in between players and their money before one of them would finally “give up” before showdown. I don’t know how nobody else realized what was happening but I did and I was only in my early 20’s then. Well I kept folding until I finally got AA and limped in and just kept calling all their bets. I won a huge pot off them and left.
Similar deal with my guy, @Old State .
The most ridiculous one I’ve seen is the first time I was at the same table with the guy: calling a preflop shove in the first round of a tourney with 72o, catching a 772 flop against villain’s AA.
The ex-pro was dealing.
Now, that was a very cheap unlimited rebuy tournament, $35. He was prepared to rebuy 6+ times. Seen him do just that
I’ve actually talked with the player about this... He said that when joining a new game, he likes to play ridiculous, to establish a wild image, so that people for a long time will make terrible calls against him. And they do.
Good strategy — or good cover story?
The most ridiculous one I’ve seen is the first time I was at the same table with the guy: calling a preflop shove in the first round of a tourney with 72o, catching a 772 flop against villain’s AA.
The ex-pro was dealing.
Now, that was a very cheap unlimited rebuy tournament, $35. He was prepared to rebuy 6+ times. Seen him do just that
I’ve actually talked with the player about this... He said that when joining a new game, he likes to play ridiculous, to establish a wild image, so that people for a long time will make terrible calls against him. And they do.
Good strategy — or good cover story?
Old State
Full House
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The wild image definitely helps. I have another friend that always gets massive amounts of action when he has a hand. I think it’s mostly because of his image. The reality is he isn’t that wild if you are observant , but his lucky hands seem to get a lot of attention.
He was also the only player in our group that could get under the skin of the pro mentioned previously. I think for a few reasons. First he’s pretty good. Second he makes a lot more money than the pro and is a gambler in general- sports, blackjack, etc, and he is not afraid of losing money. My favorite move of his was to enter a game a little late and ask to cash in for the exact amount that the pro had in front if him. This was in the early days of our $1/2 NL games when most would cash in around $150 and sometimes didn’t establish a cap. The pro used to smile it off but you could tell he didn’t like it.
He was also the only player in our group that could get under the skin of the pro mentioned previously. I think for a few reasons. First he’s pretty good. Second he makes a lot more money than the pro and is a gambler in general- sports, blackjack, etc, and he is not afraid of losing money. My favorite move of his was to enter a game a little late and ask to cash in for the exact amount that the pro had in front if him. This was in the early days of our $1/2 NL games when most would cash in around $150 and sometimes didn’t establish a cap. The pro used to smile it off but you could tell he didn’t like it.
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Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
If he is a good player it is probably true. When I first joined the group I have been playing with there was an Asian guy named Charlie that was way better than the rest of us I later realized. Well he paid me off a few times with K2 vs my AA on a K high flop when I had 3 bet preflop. I thought he was a total fish. Once I got to know him he told me he always would pay off the new guys the first time so that they would come back and he could clean them out many times over.
I once brought a co-worker that was doing a safety visit from our corporate office in WI and before I could tell Charlie he was just a visitor for the night he had already lost $300 to him lol.
So here’s an ethical question (inspired by the great Cowboy story above) ... If you see that someone is cheating, but you figure out how to exploit their sloppy cheating, do you have an obligation to tell the rest of the players about the cheat?
So it seems a lot of the stories on "cheaters" seem to be based on new people. I guess it's hard to give the benefit of the doubt to someone you don't know. I worry about this - the villain in my story is the husband of one of my wife's friends and others who know him better have given him the benefit of the doubt whereas my friends who don't know him at all have labelled him "Sketchy Matt". And since we've never had him back, he's kinda stuck with the label. Perhaps unfairly?
I have another friend who's a really good player (and I've known him over a decade) and other guys used to think he was a bit dodgy because he'd beat you with idiot hands (for example, he felted me holding kings when he had 72o and he called my preflop raise and the flop came 77x). But he's always played and we all took great delight in him being resigned to the couch last month early on in the session - this probably goes to eliminating any thoughts that he's anything other than a good player. I know for a fact that the stakes we play are not significant for him (he used to play the $20/$40 tables back in the online days) so our $20 buy-in tourneys are probably negligible to him.
I have another friend who's a really good player (and I've known him over a decade) and other guys used to think he was a bit dodgy because he'd beat you with idiot hands (for example, he felted me holding kings when he had 72o and he called my preflop raise and the flop came 77x). But he's always played and we all took great delight in him being resigned to the couch last month early on in the session - this probably goes to eliminating any thoughts that he's anything other than a good player. I know for a fact that the stakes we play are not significant for him (he used to play the $20/$40 tables back in the online days) so our $20 buy-in tourneys are probably negligible to him.
As much as I'd love to take the guy for every penny, I think the cleanest solution is to boot the guy ASAP. Too many bad things can happen if players find out that you knew he was cheating and didn't speak up, and it's just not right.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Yes.
I think people are overlooking at why people cheat.
@TexRex 's "Cowboy" reminds me of when Winona Ryder was caught shoplifting. She had a solid career, plenty of money, but a problem. Cowboy could have had the same problem - wanting to "get away" with something, but he was "good enough" to return more money to the players at the same time.
I also doubt that professional cheats wake up one day, walk into a casino or back-alley club and decide to cheat it. They need to (well, should) hone their skills where a slip-up won't result in prison or worse. A home game is a perfect place to hone those skills.
Still others may just want to "win". They may be perfectly "normal" people who wouldn't steal a crumb if they were starving, but are induced by winning to gaining a slight edge. These people may not even think (or realize) that they are cheating. This includes leaning back in their chair to peek at your opponents hole cards, or sneaking a glimpse at the bottom card of the stub. Vikram was probably this kind of guy. Palming a relatively useless T25? If the host is sloppy, it'll probably be rounded up anyway (in a race-off the extra chip would be immediately noticed) - but it would gain Vikram an edge.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
My name is Anthony Martino and I approve this message*
*paid for by the Committee to Abolish Cheaters in My Games*
bsdunbar1
4 of a Kind
So, the guy is a compulsive cheater, not just an opportunistic one.
Yeah, that's the ticket!
Seems like it. Like a kleptomaniac who during booking tries to steal a cops watch
I had a friend in college who was a professional magician and highly skilled card mechanic. When he played poker with us he was not allowed to shuffle or deal. We caught a new guy cheating one time and used the magician to set him up at the next game. He shuffled and dealt this time - 4 kings to the cheater and 4 aces to himself. Once the cheater was stacked, he was not invited back.
That’s amazing! How’s you catch/spot the guy cheating in the first place?
I agree. However, the full context of each case might be important, as with poster above who told the interesting story about “Cowboy” above.
As I read it, the poster had the dilemma that (a) surprisingly, the cheater played worse when cheating, and (b) in a very low-stakes game and the cheater would buy pizza for everyone to deflect from his cheating, the cost of which eclipsed the stakes of the game by a gigantic factor.
And (c) the poster had busted other players for cheating then gotten a lot of grief for it, so he felt pressure not to do it again. So I understand his rationale in that unique case.
FWIW, I had a situation come up at a casino some months ago which presented a kind of analogous dilemma.
A guy came into the room and was seated at a nearby table. I recognized him from some social hall games in the area: a very bad LAG, aggressive at all the wrong times... Also a loud and annoying talker. I also know (because he announced it in one of those games) that he went to jail for several major DUI violations. A crime I have no sympathy for, as it puts innocent lives in danger. In short—not a guy I’m starting out as wanting to do any favors.
From the nearby table, BadLAG kept yelling to the floor that he wanted a change to our table. He had a buddy there he really wanted to razz. He also kept yelling that ours was “the weakest table” in the room, so he really wanted a table change. It took a long time for him to get his table change, and he kept loudly complaining about it, so we got to hear this repeatedly over the course of an hour or so.
Anyway, BadLAG finally gets his table change—right next to me. He’s a huge, obese guy (also the type who wears sunglasses on his forehead which he theatrically lowers if he’s in a “big” hand). He starts manspreading like crazy, trying to take some of my space, but I shut that down with a hard arm on the rail. (He’s in Seat 2, I’m at Seat 3, nine-handed.) Still we’re pretty crammed in.
BadLAG keeps up his non-stop bombastic chatter, mainly directed at his buddy across the table, but also targeting others at the table. Commenting on the action, but also politics, people’s looks, his personal life, anything to be the focus of attention.
Almost immediately I notice BadLAG maintains almost no card security. He holds his cards far from the rail, peeling them almost all the way back, and often also lifting them up quite a bit.
Three times I mention this to him (“Careful, I can see your cards.”) In those cases. I was either out of the hand, or intending to fold anyway, so I didn’t announce what I saw—and no one asked.
BadLAG just kept exposing his cards anyway.
Between his generally obnoxious behavior, and the fact that I’d already warned him repeatedly, I shrugged and said to myself, “Fine, I guess he doesn’t mind me seeing his cards. I’ll use that info.”
However: If I got in a multiway hand with him and other players, and he had exposed his cards to me, I thought it wouldn’t be right not to say I’d been flashed a peek, and say what I saw if asked to.
The situation thankfully never come up. BadLAG blew through three short buy-ins in about 60 minutes, then left in a huff, bemoaning his “luck.”
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