Cheatas Gonna Cheat (1 Viewer)

Trihonda

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One of the most legitimate arguments for having nice and unique chips, is the security aspect. I constantly run into players who insist that their dice chips are completely fine because all their players are trusted 100%... We also see this when new forum members start discussing the idea creating a chip set to run both tourneys and cash games... some people have a hard time grasping that there ARE a few unscrupulous poker players, and those players sometimes play home games...

So, let’s provide some examples of home (or local) games that you know of that have experienced levels of cheating. This doesn’t need to focus around chips, but bonus points if the cheater used chips in some fashion to facilitate the cheat... hopefully next time somone considers Introducing a security defect into their game, and says, “but I trust my players”, we can just link this Thead...

Here’s my example. Local game (that I’ve played in), where a player named Vikram was identified palming $25 chips at buyin, and also peeking at cards. See the Video. This all came to light when Vikram was playing at another local game, and the bank came up around $170 short... after the shortage came to light, a couple players approached the host days later, and admitted they observed Vikram “peeking” at the flop when he was the dealer (before it was dealt)... with this new information, the other host, with a camera, reviewed footage from the most recent game at HIS house, and observed Vikram cheating. Vikram was considered to be a friend to most of the regular players, and at one point was even a coworker to many of them. There’s not many of the players that wouldn’t have “vouched” for him prior to this all coming to light.. so you just never know...

 
Was this a thread on 2+2 a while back?

Dunno, but I was inspired due to a conversation I just had with a guy trying to organize a public cash game tonight, in a bar, using dice chips, and promoting the game to 1500 local degens on our local FB poker group. He said everyone was trustworthy. Ok...

The video and story about Vikram is LOCAL, and I know the involved hosts/players (though Vikram never played at my game).
 
Well, with that kind of "friend" you don't really need any enemies, as a Greek proverb goes.
But I fail to see how any specific chip set would have prevented him from doing what he did in this video.
I acknowledge, though, that chips as common as dice chips can exacerbate the situation.
Cameras proved to be a lot more worthy.
The closest I 've come to see cheating has been a "stupid" verbal (non-) statement of the kind "60 Euros is all I 've got". (But, "I 'm not really betting them" the asshole meant, while the next guy had already pushed in 60E, believing in good faith that he called a bet).
 
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Also, played in a home game for a while where I felt something was off. I stopped going. Most of the people were friends since high school, but I barely knew them. Turns out that one couple was setting the deck for each other when dealing, and giving signals. These people had known each other for 20 years, and had been ripping off the game for a couple years for big money! They finally got caught and there was a huge all out brawl at the game.
 
I do remember finding 5 cards removed from the deck in a college game once.

Needless to say, I count the stub a little more often.
 
Vikram is a dick.

No cheating found at our game, but I may have overlooked it and might need some help sorting it out. Guess we're just lucky.

:cautious:

That said, not too long ago we randomly counted one deck and discovered we had been playing with 48 cards. We assumed host's daughter had gotten a hold of the deck. Now we count every deck before starting.
 
Around 2009 we Had a guy at our home game bend some copag cards. The Aces, tens, an oddly deuces. He lost both times and after the second time realized the messed up cards weren’t a coincidence he was not invited back.
 
Around 2009 we Had a guy at our home game bend some copag cards. The Aces, tens, an oddly deuces. He lost both times and after the second time realized the messed up cards weren’t a coincidence he was not invited back.

Must be playing deuces wild? :rolleyes:
 
Only one instance I'm aware of in my game, and it was a player that I invited.

I extended an invitation to a guy who I'd played with a couple times in another game. I was hosting a $40 tourney followed by .25/.50 cash. We busted out of the tourney and, with a couple other players, got the cash game going.

We were heads up in a hand that he was dealing, and after the flushy flop I noticed him thumbing the stub to get a peek at the top cards. I called him out and told him to stop, he did, and shortly after I cashed him out and he left. Obviously he didn't come back.

On the other hand, I've invited a lot of unknowns who found my game online, and I've never had a single problem with any of them.
 
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Years ago I played regularly with a couple guys I worked with, and a couple guys they went to school with. Super friendly $20 game just to drink and hang out, usually with 6 or 7 players on a given night out of maybe 12 total. One night I wasn’t there, and they caught one of the guys hiding cards under the table. Couldn’t believe it, but it definitely happens.

Only other time I legitimately think I saw someone cheating - it was a regular tournament in a bowling alley after hours. Anywhere from 4-6 tables, mostly the same people, but some new faces each week. One new guy that I had never seen before, handled the deck and dealt like a pro dealer (self dealt game). I made the final table and we were the last two, he’s dealing. I had AK Suited, and flopped the two pairs. End up all in and he had pocket aces. I know it’s not a super unlikely hand, but he had a weird vibe and that was the only time I ever saw him play there. He cashed out and left real fast, most people hung out for cash games, drinking, or just to BS
 
I’d been playing poker only a few months. I played at a party and didn’t know any of the other players. It was $.01 ante, $.10 limit to start. We played with cheap plastic chips available at virtually every grocery store. Five of us started. I won 4 of the first 5 hands. They went to $.25 limit. I won 4 of the next 5 hands. Stakes were raised again, I think to $1 limit. I won 4 of the next 5 hands. It was an amazing run of great cards.

Two guys who had left to go get some cash returned. They put money into the kitty, and took chips. At some point, stakes were raised again, but I’m not sure exactly – I think it was to $5. They played about 90 minutes, then cashed out and left. After a while, the other 5 of us called it quits.

I had around $300 in chips. Given that my entertainment budget was $25 for an entire month, that was a terrific night. However, when the money was counted, there was less than $130 in the kitty. Moreover, we discovered that we had many more chips than we started with. The revolving rack that held 200 chips was way more than full, particularly overloaded with the blue or highest value chips.

I suspect the two went to obtain chips, not cash. No one actually verified what they put in and took out, or verified their chip stacks. The chip stacks wouldn’t have mattered as I think their pockets were full of counterfeit chips.

We split the money proportionally to the chips. I had the most, and I walked away with somewhere between $30 and $50. I didn’t actually lose any money, but others did.

I learned that even in a cheap poker game, people will cheat. This one had to do with chips, and it’s why I’m so opposed to cheap chips and to having one chip set for both cash and tournaments.
 
I’d been playing poker only a few months. I played at a party and didn’t know any of the other players. It was $.01 ante, $.10 limit to start. We played with cheap plastic chips available at virtually every grocery store. Five of us started. I won 4 of the first 5 hands. They went to $.25 limit. I won 4 of the next 5 hands. Stakes were raised again, I think to $1 limit. I won 4 of the next 5 hands. It was an amazing run of great cards.

Two guys who had left to go get some cash returned. They put money into the kitty, and took chips. At some point, stakes were raised again, but I’m not sure exactly – I think it was to $5. They played about 90 minutes, then cashed out and left. After a while, the other 5 of us called it quits.

I had around $300 in chips. Given that my entertainment budget was $25 for an entire month, that was a terrific night. However, when the money was counted, there was less than $130 in the kitty. Moreover, we discovered that we had many more chips than we started with. The revolving rack that held 200 chips was way more than full, particularly overloaded with the blue or highest value chips.

I suspect the two went to obtain chips, not cash. No one actually verified what they put in and took out, or verified their chip stacks. The chip stacks wouldn’t have mattered as I think their pockets were full of counterfeit chips.

We split the money proportionally to the chips. I had the most, and I walked away with somewhere between $30 and $50. I didn’t actually lose any money, but others did.

I learned that even in a cheap poker game, people will cheat. This one had to do with chips, and it’s why I’m so opposed to cheap chips and to having one chip set for both cash and tournaments.
The host should have ate the loss and paid you full
 
I’d been playing poker only a few months. I played at a party and didn’t know any of the other players. It was $.01 ante, $.10 limit to start. We played with cheap plastic chips available at virtually every grocery store. Five of us started. I won 4 of the first 5 hands. They went to $.25 limit. I won 4 of the next 5 hands. Stakes were raised again, I think to $1 limit. I won 4 of the next 5 hands. It was an amazing run of great cards.

Two guys who had left to go get some cash returned. They put money into the kitty, and took chips. At some point, stakes were raised again, but I’m not sure exactly – I think it was to $5. They played about 90 minutes, then cashed out and left. After a while, the other 5 of us called it quits.

I had around $300 in chips. Given that my entertainment budget was $25 for an entire month, that was a terrific night. However, when the money was counted, there was less than $130 in the kitty. Moreover, we discovered that we had many more chips than we started with. The revolving rack that held 200 chips was way more than full, particularly overloaded with the blue or highest value chips.

I suspect the two went to obtain chips, not cash. No one actually verified what they put in and took out, or verified their chip stacks. The chip stacks wouldn’t have mattered as I think their pockets were full of counterfeit chips.

We split the money proportionally to the chips. I had the most, and I walked away with somewhere between $30 and $50. I didn’t actually lose any money, but others did.

I learned that even in a cheap poker game, people will cheat. This one had to do with chips, and it’s why I’m so opposed to cheap chips and to having one chip set for both cash and tournaments.
Sound like the host allowed himself to get ripped off ...but not really cheating per se.

I’ve never been at any home game where I ever saw anyone cheat. I also don’t usually play with random people I hardly know. A large majority of my poker friends are also pretty observant and keep track of things. Also, most have known players for a very long time.

The only time a pot was short at a game I hosted was about a year ago. There was a guy from a league I was in that came to play $.25/.50. He wasn’t very experienced at cash poker and is in his early 60’s. He kept throwing the wrong denominations out when he bet all night. I think he couldn’t read them and may have been a little color blind. Anyway, when he wanted to cash out he stacked his chips and at a glance they looked right. I think I was in a hand and possibly dealing as well and quickly payed him without verifying. Later that night I was short $20-30 dollars (there was probably $500 in the bank). I don’t think he meant it but rather he counted some .50 as $5. I feel that way because he was having an issue all night. That said, it was my fault I didn’t verify...which I normally do.

As for real cheating, I never saw it. I once has creased Copags but the cards were something like a 2 and a 10. I blamed the Copags and replaced them. From some of these stories it’s sounds like most of it happens at bar games or “card rooms” where there are many random people.
 
Lash, ordinarily, I would agre with you! It was really at least 2 different hosts as it was held at an appartment's clubhouse. My understanding was 2 people hosted a party there, each inviting guests, and the groups mingled. However, neither host of the party was playing. The lady who invited me didn't know most of the poker players. In fact, she was only vaguely aware of the game going on. She didn't know until the next day what happened. The other host wasn't playing either, and I didn't even know him. I have no idea what he knew, but wouldn't assume anything.

The cards and chips were in one of those round revolving things that I suspect belonged to the complex. It was on a table, one guy suggested playing, so I sat down. The lady who invited me was the only person I knew when I went.

A huge problem was it started as such a low end game that no one thought someone should be the banker. As best I could tell, the buy-ins and chips were on the honor system. Or maybe the dishonor system!

It was a weird situation, but boy did I get a lesson in what not to do for poker chips.
 
I’d been playing poker only a few months. I played at a party and didn’t know any of the other players. It was $.01 ante, $.10 limit to start. We played with cheap plastic chips available at virtually every grocery store. Five of us started. I won 4 of the first 5 hands. They went to $.25 limit. I won 4 of the next 5 hands. Stakes were raised again, I think to $1 limit. I won 4 of the next 5 hands. It was an amazing run of great cards.

Two guys who had left to go get some cash returned. They put money into the kitty, and took chips. At some point, stakes were raised again, but I’m not sure exactly – I think it was to $5. They played about 90 minutes, then cashed out and left. After a while, the other 5 of us called it quits.

I had around $300 in chips. Given that my entertainment budget was $25 for an entire month, that was a terrific night. However, when the money was counted, there was less than $130 in the kitty. Moreover, we discovered that we had many more chips than we started with. The revolving rack that held 200 chips was way more than full, particularly overloaded with the blue or highest value chips.

I suspect the two went to obtain chips, not cash. No one actually verified what they put in and took out, or verified their chip stacks. The chip stacks wouldn’t have mattered as I think their pockets were full of counterfeit chips.

We split the money proportionally to the chips. I had the most, and I walked away with somewhere between $30 and $50. I didn’t actually lose any money, but others did.

I learned that even in a cheap poker game, people will cheat. This one had to do with chips, and it’s why I’m so opposed to cheap chips and to having one chip set for both cash and tournaments.

Man, I hate this story, but it should be bookmarked and referenced every time someone wants to use commonly available chips, or wants to use tourney chips in the cash game.
 
Lash, ordinarily, I would agre with you! It was really at least 2 different hosts as it was held at an appartment's clubhouse. My understanding was 2 people hosted a party there, each inviting guests, and the groups mingled. However, neither host of the party was playing. The lady who invited me didn't know most of the poker players. In fact, she was only vaguely aware of the game going on. She didn't know until the next day what happened. The other host wasn't playing either, and I didn't even know him. I have no idea what he knew, but wouldn't assume anything.

The cards and chips were in one of those round revolving things that I suspect belonged to the complex. It was on a table, one guy suggested playing, so I sat down. The lady who invited me was the only person I knew when I went.

A huge problem was it started as such a low end game that no one thought someone should be the banker. As best I could tell, the buy-ins and chips were on the honor system. Or maybe the dishonor system!

It was a weird situation, but boy did I get a lesson in what not to do for poker chips.
This is what is known in some languages as a “cluster f**k”. Multiple hosts, a random apartment club house, no body knows anyone. I would say that game would have a high likely hood of something stupid happening .
I hosted a game just last night. I have known everyone there for at least a year. There was one new guy who was the brother of a guy I’ve know and played with for 3 years. There were people sitting at the table that had someone there they have known for over 20 years. Cheating isn’t something I really that worried about .
 
Lash, ordinarily, I would agre with you! It was really at least 2 different hosts as it was held at an appartment's clubhouse. My understanding was 2 people hosted a party there, each inviting guests, and the groups mingled. However, neither host of the party was playing. The lady who invited me didn't know most of the poker players. In fact, she was only vaguely aware of the game going on. She didn't know until the next day what happened. The other host wasn't playing either, and I didn't even know him. I have no idea what he knew, but wouldn't assume anything.

The cards and chips were in one of those round revolving things that I suspect belonged to the complex. It was on a table, one guy suggested playing, so I sat down. The lady who invited me was the only person I knew when I went.

A huge problem was it started as such a low end game that no one thought someone should be the banker. As best I could tell, the buy-ins and chips were on the honor system. Or maybe the dishonor system!

It was a weird situation, but boy did I get a lesson in what not to do for poker chips.
That’s why you always have to have someone be in charge and on the hook but as you said things escalated :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:

As @Old State said, almost all of these things happen when playing with strangers or at best acquaintances. More security is always better but I lean more towards - it depends - who you’re playing with, what are the stakes, etc. Sure I could buy a gun, security cameras, and higher someone to be my eye in the sky but if I’m playing with family and close friends my concern of cheating, using dice chips or using the same cash/tourney chips is still gunna be 0.
 
This is what is known in some languages as a “cluster f**k”. Multiple hosts, a random apartment club house, no body knows anyone. I would say that game would have a high likely hood of something stupid happening .
I hosted a game just last night. I have known everyone there for at least a year. There was one new guy who was the brother of a guy I’ve know and played with for 3 years. There were people sitting at the table that had someone there they have known for over 20 years. Cheating isn’t something I really that worried about .

The people in my example had known, played cards, (even worked with) Vikram for years. You just never know...

And Vikram was found out AFTER the fact and was never caught in person. I believe He was confronted via phone, given an opportunity to make the banks right, etc. but was not given an opportunity to show up in person (disinvited to future games). I also believe Vikram declined the opportunity to correct the known instances of loss to hosts. Ya, he was publically shamed (having that video shared with the area’s 1500 member Facebook poker group).

The Evil vengeful part of my brain says invite Vikram to your next game. Then after he spends his $300 for chips, you rally the troops, show him the video of him cheating, ask him if he has anything to say (not that you really care) then kick him out of your house, sans chips or buyin money. Divvy the money between yourself and the other host who was short $170.

But I probably would do what actually happened. I wouldn’t want the guy into my home ever again, even if to set them up.
 
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The people in my example had known, played cards, (even worked with) Vikram for years. You just never know...

And Vikram was found out AFTER the fact and was never caught in person. I believe He was confronted via phone, given an opportunity to make the banks right, etc. but was not given an opportunity to show up in person (disinvited to future games). I also believe Vikram declined the opportunity to correct the known instances of loss to hosts. Ya, he was publically shamed (having that video shared with the area’s 1500 member Facebook poker group).

That does suck, but what kind of game was this? Why did they feel the need to have cameras in the first place? Is this massive poker group I assume?
 
There were a LOT of things wrong with that setup! I was just too naive to know what could happen. Ultimately, I wasn't hurt, and even walking away with what I did was a great night for me. I played in a $.10 limit game where a big win was $3-4, so more than 10x that sounded good to me.

For lessons:
  1. Always have a banker! A banker should have verified the money coming in and going out. When the stakes went up, probably everyone should have cashed chips in then and rebought because the chip values were going up. The banker should have taken the chips in and cashed them out after a count, and if he noticed the appearance of extra chips, he should have stopped the game for a count. For cash games, it also seemed to me that the banker should have written the in and out money down. That's what I did when I was the banker.
  2. Never use chips somebody else can easily bring in to a game. Even when I've done group buy chips, I've always gotten blanks and custom labels. Part of it is not wanting anyone to be able to bring duplicate chips to a game. I think if chips are commercially available, there is some risk of something like this happening. Since no one playing actually owned the chip set, I don't think anyone realized how many extra chips there were on the table either. I don't know whether that was because the two guys cashed out from chips in their pockets, whether they put extras in play, or both.
  3. Denominated chips help as it got confusing as the stakes went up. But I played for years before I finally had a denominated set, so I recognize that isn't critical, but it helps.
  4. Playing with people you know helps, or at least those recommended by people you know.
Lest others think all players were bad, one guy did offer to pay for my losses. He kind of took charge after those two left. I didn't take him up on it because he had actually lost a lot of money, well at least a lot to me it was a lot. I didn't want to feel obligated to attend any other games with him. He was a nice guy, and what I thought was an excellent player. I got lucky against him several times that night, which is the only reason I did as well as I did. He offered because he said he shouldn't have allowed it to happen. I don't think he was involved in the scam.
 
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The host should have ate the loss and paid you full

Normally, I agree. One of your responsibilities as a host is to protect the bank/game. Unfortunately, the wat @TexRex's game developed, splitting the losses was probably the fairest.

(And FWIW, a dedicated banker wouldn't have solved the shortage unless the whole table was counted down at each cash out. Even then, without seeing new chips introduced, it would have limited losses to a proportion when they cashed out.)

As for the Vikram situation, if that guy is shady enough to cheat, he's shady enough to rob that game, or have friends rob that game. I'd be on alert as the host, and I'd be hesitant as a player too.
 
That does suck, but what kind of game was this? Why did they feel the need to have cameras in the first place? Is this massive poker group I assume?

The host is a major IT guru, working for a massive tech company in the area. Many of the players also work for that massive tech company, many in IT related jobs. The concept of having a webcam overlooking the game room isn’t a weird concept to that group. They all knew about the cameras.

Game Format was NLHE cash game. Either 1/1 or 1/2.
 

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