Whale Hunting or Nerd Dodging? Your Call… (26 Viewers)

What type of player would you love to table up as many as you could get your hands on?

  • Jam on Jammer

    Votes: 16 61.5%
  • Take your time Einstein

    Votes: 10 38.5%

  • Total voters
    26

merkong

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Recently, a nephew of mine reached out to me in a host to host capacity to talk shop. He said that he is seeing his game become a little more aggressive, and often without merit. He’s seeing a lot of of all ins, some with no hand at all. He’s seeing people rely heavily on the liberal reload/refresh your stack policy, and he seeing just a general uptick in loosey goosey, unthoughtful poker.

He said it’s not necessarily his disdain for that style of poker that prompted the outreach but his being approached by other players who are feeling the game is trending in the wrong direction based on size of bank rolls, what’s in the drawer, and the overall pre-disposition to win at all costs.

It got me thinking about games that tend to trend in one direction or another. My thoughts have always been that if enough players approach the manager and make their thoughts known and are in unison about these trends, it is the responsibility of the manager to consider what if anything can be done to keep the game palatable for all. Especially if that vocal grouping is not necessarily the minority and the games livelihood and vibrance could wind up being on the line.

So the poll question isn’t about what if anything would us who hosts do in a similar situation, but is more geared towards two style of players; the jam happy deep pocketed whale who gets caught every now and again, but not always and the thoughtful mathematical, willing to pick his spots type of player who will out kick you with top pair, maybe turn over to pair and usually if he’s in the hand at showdown has a pretty good win/loss record.

If this turns into a conversation about what as a host, you would do if there was a growing grouping of players that did not like the direction the game was heading that’s fine too.

Games go through life cycles and it’s the manager’s responsibility to stay one step ahead of a life cycle as it starts to abolish, and the next one begins and to make the necessary tweaks and lever pulls to make those jumps from one chapter to the next as seamless as possible.

Let’s go!!

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In my opinion coming from online and now playing a lot more IRL, jamming obviously has its place at the table. When a player consistently 4-bets pre-flop and stacks others with weak hands it can be incredibly annoying. I would also argue that whales force you to play the game on a deeper level to try and read your opponents to determine if they really have the nuts.

They win big but fall twice as hard, its poker!

In the hosting aspect, the whale is not doing anything wrong, it is just a stylistic difference albeit annoying. What’re you gonna do tell them to only play certain hands? The disgruntled players kind of just need to suck it up. Unless said whale is disrespectful in his ways, it is up to him to decide how he wants to play/ stay at the table.
 
I definitely prefer the loosey goosey whale with a smile. I’ve had a few players pout about what my game “has become” so I opened a smaller stakes table with fewer circus games, radically reduced cap on buy in, only 50% match the stack, etc and those pouters are back to their happy place. Meanwhile, I can play for piles on the main table with the other degens. Everyone is happy. Win/win. I sometimes miss playing with a couple of the NITs, as they’re my friends, but that is easily solved. I’ll just go sit in with them for a few orbits, shoot the shit, get bored and go back to playing with the degens.
 
Depends on the buy-ins tbh. Micros I wouldn't really care if someone wanted to jam pre every other hand, although I imagine it would annoy the other people I play with. Low to mid stakes I'd be thrilled if it was at a casino/poker room, but I think it might turn me off at a home game. Gotta remember home games are a social event, even if it's "+EV" for everyone else at the table, if they don't enjoy it they're gonna stop showing up. I've always wondered how a 'Big Game' style format would go where it's PL pre-flop and then NL post-flop.
 
Sounds like the next cycle of your game is a schism: one game for "maniac" players and another for "thoughtful"/conservative players.

And the games should have different structures. Obviously the maniac game will do better with elements like unlimited straddling and match-the-stack rebuys. The conservative game should probably include none of that, if for no other reason than to dissuade the maniacs from joining (and inevitably overrunning the small game too).

It may even make sense to run different stakes, so like a 0.25/0.50 game on one night and a 2/2 game another night, or whatever structures work for your group. Your higher-skilled conservative players may even want to take shots in the bigger game once in a while, but having the smaller game to fall back on means they're not stuck playing with maniacs or nothing at all.
 
The cardinal rule of poker isn't about spotting the sucker at the table; it's actually not impeding the spirit of the game.

If a group of players approaches a host about too much aggressive play in a game, offer to host a bridge night with complimentary menstrual cups for them.


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The cardinal rule of poker isn't about spotting the sucker at the table; it's actually not impeding the spirit of the game.

If a group of players approaches a host about too much aggressive play in a game, offer to host a bridge night with complimentary menstrual cups for them.


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That’s good and for the record, this isn’t my game we’re talking about but when a game loses 3/4 of its players because of two Jam Addicts then whoever is charge of that game can have fun rebuilding.
 
To each their own… if I lose a couple crybabies, I just replace them. I’ll offer smaller stakes and all the things I described on a side table for them, but if that isn’t sufficient, too fn bad. I’m not charging a rake. Running a second table is kind of a pita, tbh. I do it for free out of friendship to all. But, it’s still my house and my game. And I have a waiting list every week for the degens on the main table, so quit if ya like. I host a poker game. Is there a social aspect? You bet! We have soooo much fun, my side hurts from laughing for days sometimes. But, it’s a poker game with a social component. You can hear a pin drop at times when a big hand develops. It’s not a social event that happens to play cards. There is a decisive difference and you have to decide which you want to play. I love poker. So, I found poker players who are cool to hang out with. Not friends I had to coerce to play poker for $10-20. And I’m not judging at all. I did the friend game for $20 for over a decade and decided I couldn’t stand it any longer. Nudging the drunk or stoned guy it’s his bet every three seconds was just too annoying. No one needs to be told it’s their turn these days. Do what makes you happy for the type of game you want! Be open and honest about what you’re doing. There are plenty of players looking for each type of game. The problem is trying to straddle both worlds.
 
He said that he is seeing his game become a little more aggressive, and often without merit. He’s seeing a lot of of all ins, some with no hand at all. He’s seeing people rely heavily on the liberal reload/refresh your stack policy, and he seeing just a general uptick in loosey goosey, unthoughtful poker.
I am not a fan of unlimited reload or even match-the-stack when hosting. (obviously I am fine playing in these games) There is just a chance that some players want these rules to put other players in uncomfortable position bankroll wise. (FWIW, I don't think that's an issue in your game)

So I would suggest a change to a 200BB buy-in limit. Add-ons can bring the stack up to 200BB but not more. (Maybe allow for some rounding give or take 10 BB) No match the stack and see if that changes the game culture overall.

and the overall pre-disposition to win at all costs.
This I am not sure about, because anyone sitting in a game should be playing to win. Perhaps this comment more about friendliness than "trying to win?" Are players using table talk that's over the line? Being deliberately antagonistic to unbalance their opponents emotionally? I can see those sort of behaviors as unwelcome, but trying to win on its own is no cause for alarm at all.
 
I am not a fan of unlimited reload or even match-the-stack when hosting. (obviously I am fine playing in these games) There is just a chance that some players want these rules to put other players in uncomfortable position bankroll wise. (FWIW, I don't think that's an issue in your game)

So I would suggest a change to a 200BB buy-in limit. Add-ons can bring the stack up to 200BB but not more. (Maybe allow for some rounding give or take 10 BB) No match the stack and see if that changes the game culture overall.


This I am not sure about, because anyone sitting in a game should be playing to win. Perhaps this comment more about friendliness than "trying to win?" Are players using table talk that's over the line? Being deliberately antagonistic to unbalance their opponents emotionally? I can see those sort of behaviors as unwelcome, but trying to win on its own is no cause for alarm at all.
The players at my game are always trying to keep me from winning. It’s frustrating sometimes. It’s like they don’t want me to win.
 
Perhaps this comment more about friendliness than "trying to win?" Are players using table talk that's over the line? Being deliberately antagonistic to unbalance their opponents emotionally? I can see those sort of behaviors as unwelcome, but trying to win on its own is no cause for alarm at all.

I read it as merely they don’t approve of the hands and frequency the other players choose to bet (I would try to find a nice way to say go pound sand).

Probably worth mentioning. The maniac who is giving money away is fun. The maniac who knows about your massive flop and turn leaks and has a reliable timing tell or eye tell or pulse tell on you and is using this as well as a frustratingly wide range which is hard to read…maybe the aggression isn’t “without merit” after all. Not in the game but if nits are getting frustrated it probably isn’t that the nits are making a lot of money catching hands
 
Probably worth mentioning. The maniac who is giving money away is fun. The maniac who knows about your massive flop and turn leaks and has a reliable timing tell or eye tell or pulse tell on you and is using this as well as a frustratingly wide range which is hard to read…maybe the aggression isn’t “without merit” after all. Not in the game but if nits are getting frustrated it probably isn’t that the nits are making a lot of money catching hands
Yeah, that second "maniac" is not a maniac at all but a very advanced player.

No one minds if a guy shows up with a pocket full of cash and blasts it all off. People do care when the guy with a pocket full of cash is clever in ways they're not prepared to counter.
 
If we are playing no-limit Texas hold ‘em, I’m not gonna fault anyone who’s overly aggressive, splashy or whaley. I think you need a couple of those to keep things fun and interesting.

If players are worried about bankrolls and budgets that’s perfectly reasonable, and they can choose whether to play in the game.

If you’re truly worried about the long term health of your game I would look at adjusting the stakes and buyin/cap - or just change your game to limit or spread limit - before trying to police bet sizes in a game called “no limit” hold em.
 
Funny. We have a wild one in our game with a VPIP of 85%+ and super aggro. On our Pmavens server people love to plo6 hi/lo that noone do really well in and 9/10 it's a split pot. I don't play as much but there's 3-4 regular players rotating each others chips. The wild one comes in and starts spewing chips. As he rarely folds he'd win small pots or made it to showdown, often as a fairly massive underdog and hitting his gin card(s) and profitted.

Once his sunrun ended and players adjusted, he raged about how he'd never play those guys again because they only big pots with monsters... Now he's raging on me (server owner) and another player and says he suspects us of rigging the server as we're "IT experts" and because he's hemorraging money... Again - 85% VPIP and raises pre-flop 98% of the times.
"I've played poker and never experienced anything similar to this!". ..

The "aggressors" in OPs posts are just massive punters and very easily exploitable. If the players can't adjust to that then they're just as easily exploitable and should work on their game. Or at least take 5 minutes and consider why they don't play like that and they'll find the strategy by accident.

Edit: And this is reason #492 for why you shouldn't allow match the stack at your table and have a low buy in cap.
 
If you’re truly worried about the long term health of your game I would look at adjusting the stakes and buyin/cap - or just change your game to limit or spread limit - before trying to police bet sizes in a game called “no limit” hold em.
This topic has come up a few times here, with a fair number of cases where the OP is thinking about pulling the aggro player(s) aside and suggesting that he/they should have to play differently to stay in the game (which I'm glad OP is not doing here).

I agree completely with this last thing you said. Telling people to change how they play is never an option, especially in a game that's defined as "no limit." Adjusting the parameters of the game is usually the smart play and will tend to achieve the same goals, without having to make any improper demands.
 
In totally uncapped games, where the supposed stakes (blinds) become irrelevant, you just can't see the maniacs / whales to their demise, unless you have more cash than them in your pocket.
You can't fight whales more rich than you in an uncapped game.
 
In totally uncapped games, where the supposed stakes (blinds) become irrelevant, you just can't see the maniacs / whales to their demise, unless you have more cash than them in your pocket.
You can't fight whales more rich than you in an uncapped game.
what does “demise” even mean in a cash game

Uncapped game with a whale is usually thought of as a pretty good game…
 
Having a loosey goosey action game should be the goal of all hosts, tight abc poker is how poker games die
I disagree… A table full of actiony whales will sustain indefinitely as long as none of them have a financial crisis.

Same with a table of snug ABC poker players.

The difference being is that ABC poker players tend not to have poker induced financial catastrophes.

That aside, birds of a feather…

And FWIW, we’re talking about a game that contains a little of both and the complexities that introduces.
 
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