Cashless and Chipless casinos.

RivieraDanny

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I don’t think it would be worth a casino’s while to rig an electronic poker game. But I could see scenarios where rigging could advantage the house. For example, if the turn were more frequently an action card than a natural deal, that would build bigger pots and likely lead to more rake.

Again, I don’t think they’d do it. But.
Yeah right..... I mean anyone can get a gaming license! Hahahaha. (Kidding).
 

Taghkanic

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The amount of profit to be had would be trivial compared to the potential reputational risk and fines if caught. From what I understand, poker rooms are a marginal part of casino revenues—really, a necessary evil as far as operators are concerned.
 
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I don’t think it would be worth a casino’s while to rig an electronic poker game. But I could see scenarios where rigging could advantage the house. For example, if the turn were more frequently an action card than a natural deal, that would build bigger pots and likely lead to more rake.

Again, I don’t think they’d do it. But.

Correct me if I'm wrong. It's been awhile since I've played poker at a casino but isn't there a cap on the rake? I recall there was one and it's very low so doesn't really matter how large the pot is, it's not going to increase their profit (hence no reason to rig).
 

Poppin92

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Question little bit regarding this topic ;
Here in Europe casino’s have blackjack tables only with the one2six continuous shuffler , not regular card shoe where the dealer has to shuffle manually.
What’s the opinion on these continuous shufflers , last time I had some research about it I read that these machines have optically card readers in them.
Of course this is not a giveaway that these machines are rigged cause the machines don’t know which card may be best for the dealer , but I don’t feel quite safe with them neither. Sometimes it’s just too noticeable that these shufflers give some sort of edge other than that it speeds up the game meaning more hands will be dealt and eventually leading to a bigger profit.
 

RivieraDanny

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Question little bit regarding this topic ;
Here in Europe casino’s have blackjack tables only with the one2six continuous shuffler , not regular card shoe where the dealer has to shuffle manually.
What’s the opinion on these continuous shufflers , last time I had some research about it I read that these machines have optically card readers in them.
Of course this is not a giveaway that these machines are rigged cause the machines don’t know which card may be best for the dealer , but I don’t feel quite safe with them neither. Sometimes it’s just too noticeable that these shufflers give some sort of edge other than that it speeds up the game meaning more hands will be dealt and eventually leading to a bigger profit.
continuous shufflers aren't that prevalent as they once were. But they do mean that every card is always in play.
 

hopetobloom

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grrr I hate the idea of cashless/chipless! I can't imagine a poker room without the rhythmic sounds of people shuffling everywhere... dead quiet would be so depressing! But alas, it seems to be a general trend of things, along with rumored digital currencies invading banks soon.
 

RivieraDanny

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grrr I hate the idea of cashless/chipless! I can't imagine a poker room without the rhythmic sounds of people shuffling everywhere... dead quiet would be so depressing! But alas, it seems to be a general trend of things, along with rumored digital currencies invading banks soon.
Like I said, If it does happen they'll come up with a Bose surround virtual shuffle!! Or let you bring a stack to shuffle. In a tournament they'll use the real thing and the chips could be the grand prize with the cash!!
 

Nanook

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This is clearly going to be the norm sooner or later imo. The casino saves money by not having to buy chips ............
I disagree. A lot of people go to the Casino or Card Room to have some sort of different experience than they would get online. Not having chips = basically playing online

If this was to happen whats the point of a physical casino even existing? They have all of these virtual machines and rooms online, I dont see a difference at that point. In fact the casino could save even more money by not having a physical location, it will just make it one step closer to that happening if chips get removed
lol, right. I do think we will see the day that Online Poker is totally legal in all 50 states, but that is an entirely different topic

They already have chip-less craps figured out.....
They do and it is boring as hell compared to a live craps table.

The amount of profit to be had would be trivial compared to the potential reputational risk and fines if caught. From what I understand, poker rooms are a marginal part of casino revenues—really, a necessary evil as far as operators are concerned.
This is the best reason for any sort of licensed casino or card room not to cheat. Seriously, why would they? They have a license to basically print money. Why f that up by trying to squeeze out another few percent profit?

Question little bit regarding this topic ;
Here in Europe casino’s have blackjack tables only with the one2six continuous shuffler , not regular card shoe where the dealer has to shuffle manually.
What’s the opinion on these continuous shufflers , last time I had some research about it I read that these machines have optically card readers in them.
Of course this is not a giveaway that these machines are rigged cause the machines don’t know which card may be best for the dealer , but I don’t feel quite safe with them neither. Sometimes it’s just too noticeable that these shufflers give some sort of edge other than that it speeds up the game meaning more hands will be dealt and eventually leading to a bigger profit.
I can tell you with 100% confidence that the most modern shufflers have the ability to read cards and sort them as they see fit. I spoke to one of the repair guys that services the shufflers @ my local card room. He showed me how the whole thing works. There are 2 sides each with little shelves in there. There is a camera that takes a picture or most likely video of each card and then there are rollers that move cards from one side to the other as the shelves move up and down until it has done what ever you want it to do. So, for example, you can tell the shuffler to sort the deck just like it is a new deck and each suit is sorted in order. boom done rather than having dealers sort through cards.

Just because they have the ability to sort cards the way they see fit does not mean they are doing it to take advantage of the players. I do not believe that any card room or Casino that has a legit license would take the risk to use that ability to cheat the players for the above stated reason. The risk of losing their license WAY out weighs the small advantage they would gain by cheating the players.
 

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I disagree. A lot of people go to the Casino or Card Room to have some sort of different experience than they would get online. Not having chips = basically playing online


lol, right. I do think we will see the day that Online Poker is totally legal in all 50 states, but that is an entirely different topic


They do and it is boring as hell compared to a live craps table.


This is the best reason for any sort of licensed casino or card room not to cheat. Seriously, why would they? They have a license to basically print money. Why f that up by trying to squeeze out another few percent profit?


I can tell you with 100% confidence that the most modern shufflers have the ability to read cards and sort them as they see fit. I spoke to one of the repair guys that services the shufflers @ my local card room. He showed me how the whole thing works. There are 2 sides each with little shelves in there. There is a camera that takes a picture or most likely video of each card and then there are rollers that move cards from one side to the other as the shelves move up and down until it has done what ever you want it to do. So, for example, you can tell the shuffler to sort the deck just like it is a new deck and each suit is sorted in order. boom done rather than having dealers sort through cards.

Just because they have the ability to sort cards the way they see fit does not mean they are doing it to take advantage of the players. I do not believe that any card room or Casino that has a legit license would take the risk to use that ability to cheat the players for the above stated reason. The risk of losing their license WAY out weighs the small advantage they would gain by cheating the players.
No Cards no chips I agree is different. But NOTHING like playing online. Socially, look them in the eye, personal interaction. TOTALLY different than sitting at home.
 

AH77

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I disagree. A lot of people go to the Casino or Card Room to have some sort of different experience than they would get online. Not having chips = basically playing online
I certainly do but I’m not sure if that’s true for a majority of casino goers. People are more and more comfortable with digital interfaces and many might see it as a good thing. Less tipping, more “hygienic”, etc. The dealer’s unions would probably be the source of the most pushback and it’s really the only reason I can see for casinos not moving to mostly digital gaming tables.
 

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People don’t like to drink a lot at home They will go anywhere and do anything to drink and smoke and pick up dates at not-home.
The nearest poker room to me folded shop and put breakroom tables instead of poker tables. They are always full of people drinking coffee and reading papers. They can drink coffee and read the Cardplayer magazines at home but they go there.
I’m sure there are ways to attract players to the etables, they don’t always have to be plain flat screens.
 

RivieraDanny

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People don’t like to drink a lot at home They will go anywhere and do anything to drink and smoke and pick up dates at not-home.
The nearest poker room to me folded shop and put breakroom tables instead of poker tables. They are always full of people drinking coffee and reading papers. They can drink coffee and read the Cardplayer magazines at home but they go there.
I’m sure there are ways to attract players to the etables, they don’t always have to be plain flat screens.
Look @ekricket we 100 percent agree! Imagine!
youre dead.jpg
 

coolguy101

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My problem with electronic
I disagree. A lot of people go to the Casino or Card Room to have some sort of different experience than they would get online. Not having chips = basically playing online


lol, right. I do think we will see the day that Online Poker is totally legal in all 50 states, but that is an entirely different topic


They do and it is boring as hell compared to a live craps table.


This is the best reason for any sort of licensed casino or card room not to cheat. Seriously, why would they? They have a license to basically print money. Why f that up by trying to squeeze out another few percent profit?


I can tell you with 100% confidence that the most modern shufflers have the ability to read cards and sort them as they see fit. I spoke to one of the repair guys that services the shufflers @ my local card room. He showed me how the whole thing works. There are 2 sides each with little shelves in there. There is a camera that takes a picture or most likely video of each card and then there are rollers that move cards from one side to the other as the shelves move up and down until it has done what ever you want it to do. So, for example, you can tell the shuffler to sort the deck just like it is a new deck and each suit is sorted in order. boom done rather than having dealers sort through cards.

Just because they have the ability to sort cards the way they see fit does not mean they are doing it to take advantage of the players. I do not believe that any card room or Casino that has a legit license would take the risk to use that ability to cheat the players for the above stated reason. The risk of losing their license WAY out weighs the small advantage they would gain by cheating the players.
its not that the casinos would cheat, but rather make the decks truly random. That prevents “streaks,” which can be either good or bad. Any blackjack player knows that they depend on streaks to make any money. If every hand was truly random, then the house’s mathematical edge would ensure the player loses more than they could win. That’s why I hate playing video craps games. It’s truly random, and I can’t replicate what I can do in a casino when I get hot snd shoot for 45 minutes. You are all most always better off playing the donts with video craps. Back to blackjack, have you ever noticed that single and double deck tend to pay 6:5 instead of 3:2 for a black Jack? Is it because the casino knows the player has better odds with a human shuffled deck and wants to give themselves a house edge?
 

hopetobloom

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My problem with electronic

its not that the casinos would cheat, but rather make the decks truly random. That prevents “streaks,” which can be either good or bad. Any blackjack player knows that they depend on streaks to make any money. If every hand was truly random, then the house’s mathematical edge would ensure the player loses more than they could win. That’s why I hate playing video craps games. It’s truly random, and I can’t replicate what I can do in a casino when I get hot snd shoot for 45 minutes. You are all most always better off playing the donts with video craps. Back to blackjack, have you ever noticed that single and double deck tend to pay 6:5 instead of 3:2 for a black Jack? Is it because the casino knows the player has better odds with a human shuffled deck and wants to give themselves a house edge?
Yep, by only giving 6:5 they're trying to make up for the decreased variance that you'd have with a continuous shuffler or even 8-deck shoe. I have a feeling they're also just trying to squeeze out every last % knowing that most people probably aren't paying attention, or just strolling through as tourists and don't care.

Not using physical decks of cards in poker is somewhat like using continuous shufflers in blackjack, I believe.
 

Taghkanic

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Just because they have the ability to sort cards the way they see fit does not mean they are doing it to take advantage of the players. I do not believe that any card room or Casino that has a legit license would take the risk to use that ability to cheat the players for the above stated reason. The risk of losing their license WAY out weighs the small advantage they would gain by cheating the players.

Also: Assuming the dealer cuts the deck, there is no way to ensure that a machine-stacked deck would target any specific player, unless the dealer is in on it, and able to cut in exactly the “right” spot.

I suppose decks could be arranged to induce more action from the table overall, over time, for example by putting all the aces and a lot of the same suit in the bottom half of the deck (most or all of which would wind up on top if cut roughly in half).

But again, considering how little casinos relu on poker room revenue, it seems like it would be a dumb choice of where to cheat players.
 
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Nanook

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Also: Assuming the dealer cuts the deck, there is no way to ensure that a machine-stacked deck would target any specific player, unless the dealer is in on it, and able to cut in exactly the “right” spot.

I suppose decks could be arranged to induce more action from the table overall, over time, for example by putting all the aces and a lot of the same suit in the bottom half of the deck (most or all of which would wind up on top if cut roughly in half).

But again, considering how little casinos rely on poker room revenue, it seems like it would be a dumb choice of where to cheat players.
Good points too....

Another thing is lots of people observe that when you play online you see more of what seem to be bad beats. I would call a bad beat a hand where you are leading going into the river fading 4 or less outs. I guess everyone has their own definition, but to me when someone is on a flush draw and they make their flush, to me that is not a bad beat. Just a standard beat, if there is such a thing...

Anyway, 6 max online I can easily play 500 hands/hour. Some guys like to play more others less. Live in a full ring nl game you are lucky to get 25/hr. My point is if you play 20x more hands in a given time you are likely to see 20 x more bad beats, however you define that. Lets say you play 500 hands/hour and for arguments sake you play 20% of the hands that means you are playing 100 hands. Think about how often you should see a 2 outer or a 1 outer in a 1 hour session like this. Now think about how often you would see that same 2 or 1 outer playing live @ 25 hands/hr. The math is the math and in poker lots of shit happens. You play in games where bad beats are encouraged by the odds like Limit or in games where many players see the flop and you are likely to see even more bad beats.

In my opinion it just is what it is and has nothing to do with the Card Room or Casino being out to get you.
 

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Also: Assuming the dealer cuts the deck, there is no way to ensure that a machine-stacked deck would target any specific player, unless the dealer is in on it, and able to cut in exactly the “right” spot.
Back in the 70's and even into the 80's out in Vegas almost every Card Dealer was at the very minimum somewhat of a card mechanic. This, I believe, is somewhat of a lost art but I will say that I know many dealers that can cut a deck in the exact same spot 7, 8 or 9 times out of 10. I am not saying they do, I am just saying it is possible. Other dealers have no clue where they are cutting the deck and wouldn't be able to do it 2 times in 10.

Lots of the cheating that used to go on in Vegas and elsewhere involved the dealers in one way or another.
 

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Also: Assuming the dealer cuts the deck, there is no way to ensure that a machine-stacked deck would target any specific player, unless the dealer is in on it, and able to cut in exactly the “right” spot.

I suppose decks could be arranged to induce more action from the table overall, over time, for example by putting all the aces and a lot of the same suit in the bottom half of the deck (most or all of which would wind up on top if cut roughly in half).

But again, considering how little casinos relu on poker room revenue, it seems like it would be a dumb choice of where to cheat players.
And the player cuts too... In BJ
 

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At the small casino in my area (whose card room has not been reopened and has been converted into a Seniors lounge), very few of the dealers had any history with poker.

Some with no history with cards at all.

Things got more amateurish after a bunch of dealers left for MGM and the Wynn in Massachusetts.

If one suspected the house was working with mechanics, it would be really easy to ID the four or five decent dealers. But the room may not ever reopen.
 

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And what happens if the table freezes/glitches mid-hand? There is no such thing as a completely stable platform, I don’t care how simple the software is.

Shit will happen and I can’t imagine the ugly scenes that could ensue as the guy who had the nuts goes apeshit.

I suppose they could mirror all action on a server or a solid state backup drive in the table. But still.

As for older players: I just don’t see people who have to call their grandson every time they want to attach a photo in AOL Mail adopting such tech en masse.
Carnival Cruise ships have had them for years. When there was a problem it kept track of the stacks before the hand I believe and it's like the hand didn't happen. Sometimes at night it shuts off when the casino closes. If we were mid hand you just got it back next time you logged on. It's also harder to keep track of the rake since you cannot physically watch it. Time limit too that can be annoying for big hands.
 

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Good points too....

Another thing is lots of people observe that when you play online you see more of what seem to be bad beats. I would call a bad beat a hand where you are leading going into the river fading 4 or less outs. I guess everyone has their own definition, but to me when someone is on a flush draw and they make their flush, to me that is not a bad beat. Just a standard beat, if there is such a thing...

Anyway, 6 max online I can easily play 500 hands/hour. Some guys like to play more others less. Live in a full ring nl game you are lucky to get 25/hr. My point is if you play 20x more hands in a given time you are likely to see 20 x more bad beats, however you define that. Lets say you play 500 hands/hour and for arguments sake you play 20% of the hands that means you are playing 100 hands. Think about how often you should see a 2 outer or a 1 outer in a 1 hour session like this. Now think about how often you would see that same 2 or 1 outer playing live @ 25 hands/hr. The math is the math and in poker lots of shit happens. You play in games where bad beats are encouraged by the odds like Limit or in games where many players see the flop and you are likely to see even more bad beats.

In my opinion it just is what it is and has nothing to do with the Card Room or Casino being out to get you.
I would say the bad beats in online poker come because it seems like very often two or more good hands are made, which induces large betting. What I mean by that is that one player will hit a straight only for another player to hit a flush or a full house. It just seems to happen all too often vs a live game. I’m aware of the whole hands per hour thing, but it just does see like more spectacular hands come out on a more frequent basis that induces lots of betting.
 

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Carnival Cruise ships have had them for years. When there was a problem it kept track of the stacks before the hand I believe and it's like the hand didn't happen. Sometimes at night it shuts off when the casino closes. If we were mid hand you just got it back next time you logged on. It's also harder to keep track of the rake since you cannot physically watch it. Time limit too that can be annoying for big hands.
Yeah, and the tables I have played on seemed to have frequent problems with locking up which required a worker to re-set the table. You are correct that nobody lost any money, but its frustrating to repeatedly have to stop and wait for someone to come fix it.
 

Taghkanic

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I would say the bad beats in online poker come because it seems like very often two or more good hands are made, which induces large betting. What I mean by that is that one player will hit a straight only for another player to hit a flush or a full house. It just seems to happen all too often vs a live game. I’m aware of the whole hands per hour thing, but it just does see like more spectacular hands come out on a more frequent basis that induces lots of betting.

Seems to me that more hands go multiway to the flop in lower-stakes online games than they do in live games; and also more go to the river.

I think this is because people play a little more carefully live, with obvious exceptions. It’s a lot less embarrassing to fish preflop, float with marginal made hands, and chase weak draws when you aren’t face-to-face with a table of opponents and going to look stupid a lot of the time.

It’s also less embarrassing to reload in cash or re-enter in a tourney.

When more players are seeing flops and going deeper in hands, there is going to be more variance in results. The table will see a lot more “crazy” runouts, even if the cards are distributed exactly the same as they would be live.

Certainly there are many limp-y, passive 1/2 games in casinos. But I don’t see quite as much wild, loose play live as I do online.
 
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Taghkanic

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For example: If someone with JJ/QQ/KK makes a 4x raise from early position in a live, low-stakes game (or reraises over a limper from a later position) you have a pretty good chance of seeing a flop heads up, or even getting zero callers.

But in a looser online game, the big pair very easily could get called by weak aces (say, A7o or worse), small pairs (22-77), all Broadway combo, suited connectors and one-gappers, and even weaker suited hands (like J5s, T3s), possible even some weak unsuited connectors. The blinds are also a lot more likely to defend.

Live and heads up on the flop, big starting hands like JJ/QQ/KK are likely to make another substantial raise on most boards as long as no overcard hits the flop. They may slow down if the flop looks scary (say if it’s paired, or monotone). A lot of these situations are never going past the flop. There’s less chance that both of the players will really want to continue. And so, fewer sick runout.

Now, make that JJ/QQ/KK go up against 3-4 opponents. It’s almost always still a favorite over the loose callers, yet probably less than 50% to win. Out of position, the preflop raiser has to think twice about bombing the flop. The flop is much more likely to have callers make pairs+ and draws. So there’s a much bigger chance that it gets to the river, maybe with more than one villain.

Combine this with the greater number of hands dealt per hour online, and it will feel like there have been a lot more action boards and ugly beats...
 
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Taghkanic

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Another dynamic that I’ve noticed is that multiple fish love to swarm a tight “good” player who plays sound poker. They can to some extent effectively gang up on you. Add even one more solid player to the mix, and they tend to get more careful.

For instance, the other night I was playing a 6max tourney with two tables, but there were only 7 players early on (more joined later). I got stuck playing three- or four-handed with a suite of players who I know are terrible... Loose, passive, sticky fish.

That might sound great; and eventually it did work out for me.

But for about an hour I had to endure a ton of variance (until tables filled up and play became more conventional). With the three sticky fish, I was getting every single one of my preflop raises called by 2 or 3 players, with ranges I could not really read because they included such a giant percentage of the deck.

They were sticky post flop as well,.

Again, sounds great. Just wait to make a decent hand and get paid, right? Well, sure.

But I find when you go to flops multiway against multiple loose stations with wide ranges, you have to have a pretty strong stomach for variance. One fish, great... Three fish, not so much.

If I have AsKs and the flop comes KdTs9d, I am well ahead a lot of the time. But there is also a very real chance that even when I bet big on the flop, every villain with a 9, T, J, Q, K is calling, not to mention some underpairs and all the flush draws, including really weak ones like 6d3d. There are a lot fewer clean outs to come than if I was heads up against a thinking opponent. Multiway against sticky fish, there is just a lot more chance of someone making that gutshot straight, flush, two pair or trips by the river.

So when the turn is a J, every Q in the deck beats me. And these guys can have every single Q including Q2 off. Or a Q comes, and every J wins. Or an 8 comes, and now all Jacks, Queens and 7s go to the river.

They each are chasing with “only” 4 outs on the flop, plus some backdoors... But three villains have a combined 12+ outs on the flop among them against my TPTK, meaning I’m basically flipping if it gets to the river. They are not thinking about your cards, let alone your range, but just thinking “I COULD MAKE A STRAIGHT OR A FLUSH AND SHOW THIS SMART GUY WHO ’S BOSS!!!! CALL DOWN!!!!"

Never occurs to them that they could miss, or someone could make a bigger straight or flush or two pair. Some of them will also bet big with marginal made hands. So you get paid a lot. But you also get sucked out on a lot, too, so the swings are big.

This table was really exasperating for a while. I raise my button pre with AQo, I get called by all three villains, and the flop came Q22. One of them of course has a 2. I raise with AJs, flop is J33, one of them of course has a 3. The game isn’t rigged; I was just facing three opponents who collectively have massive board coverage.

I dealt with this by (a) rebuying twice, feeling reasonably sure that I could get into the money in this game; (b) continuing to stick to a strong starting range and knowing eventually these will hold up; (c) betting made hands aggressively, so that I could really get paid. And then rode that to chopping the 1st/2nd place money...
 
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