Cashless and Chipless casinos.

TeamNapoli

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All I can say then is thank goodness for the illegal gaming halls.......
I am a tactile person.. i enjoy feeling the chips and counting out my bets. i work on computers all day, wtf would i want to go sit at another one for 4 or 5 hours to play. If you want to talk about people betting over their heads, nothing can make that easier then swiping a plastic card and getting instant gratification (yes I am sure that is intended). I enjoy the casinos, the restaurants and the clubs\lounges; but make it digital and i can enjoy all that anywhere in the city and parts of NJ. No need to make the trip.

It is a shame, when you read another post here about the memories of Playboy Hotel in AC and how people dress and behaved versus where we are headed.
 

BiGGyT

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These were set up at the Venetian 4 years ago, live dealer TITO terminal for playing. Future has been here, just got to add more spaces. Harrah's Cherokee casino was all digital until about 10-15 years ago, and they made plenty of money. I do not doubt that you will hear this being the "solution". Hopefully the vaccine will avoid this.
T
 

RainmanTrail

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This isn't going to happen anytime soon. Vegas has been testing the waters of digital tables for at least a decade now. Nobody plays them. Gamblers are superstitious. It works fine for all those zombies who just sit there and smash buttons on video poker and slot machines all day, but it's not going to work for table games players.

Just try to picture the WSOP setting up 1,000 digital tables next year for the main event. Lol. Ya, not happening.
 

TheWhat

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This is clearly going to be the norm sooner or later imo. The casino saves money by not having to buy chips and they get to claim their facility is more sanitary than the one down the street using cash and clay chips.

They won't be saving any / much on chips after signing off on all the service agreements needed to keep the digital world up and running.
 

RainmanTrail

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They won't be saving any / much on chips after signing off on all the service agreements needed to keep the digital world up and running.
Those digital tables would be far more expensive than buying chips. Both up front and long term maintenance. Also, for anyone who doesn't know or hasn't worked in the casino industry, they wouldn't get to just buy those tables. They'd be licensed out to the casinos who would be paying leasing fees on them. It wouldn't just be a little bit more expensive than chips, it'd be a LOT more expensive.
 

RivieraDanny

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Those digital tables would be far more expensive than buying chips. Both up front and long term maintenance. Also, for anyone who doesn't know or hasn't worked in the casino industry, they wouldn't get to just buy those tables. They'd be licensed out to the casinos who would be paying leasing fees on them. It wouldn't just be a little bit more expensive than chips, it'd be a LOT more expensive.
In the end, its all about the money. MGM with 16 major properties has to maintain a chip inventory of around 40 million or so chips...... that cant be cheap! I'm not surprised that they all get so pissed when we harvest the ones!! they loose on every chip!! LOL I'm sure their all doing a whole lot to keep them "Sanitary" too! Not.
Unfortunately I'm in the old school "Smokers club" ( I know, I know) and watched Silver City be the first to ban smoking, they lasted a year. I always said there three things that go together perfectly, Drinking, smoking and Gambling and convinced if another casino tried that they would meet the same fate. Well times change and people adapt.

https://parkmgm.mgmresorts.com/en/hotel/smoke-free.html
park-mgm-hotel-smoke-free-logo3.jpg.image.1440.550.high.jpg
 

RivieraDanny

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And, to mention again, GPI as a casino supplier is a 85 million a year company, IGT is a little under 5 Billion $, Bally 997 million, SGI 44 million clear profits with 144 employees. Our little chippy friends at GPI while very important for now are a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things. I can see why they are diversifying in the gaming industry. Smart folks adapt.
 

RivieraDanny

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This isn't going to happen anytime soon. Vegas has been testing the waters of digital tables for at least a decade now. Nobody plays them. Gamblers are superstitious. It works fine for all those zombies who just sit there and smash buttons on video poker and slot machines all day, but it's not going to work for table games players.

Just try to picture the WSOP setting up 1,000 digital tables next year for the main event. Lol. Ya, not happening.
While I agree, those button smashing zombies are the heart and souls of the casinos profits. Table gamers aren’t chippers so much, and us poker junkies are catered to as a convenience at the casinos. (Don’t anyone get all riled up at the following statement). Poker players are the least profitable players in the casinos. The daily grind of running the poker room is more a bother and cost to them than the profit they realize from it. Like I said before the hope is that you’ll visit the restaurant, buy some drinks, and pull a handle or two or a few hands of blackjack. There was a time the casinos were taking poker out until a revival of its popularity and they found that if they wanted the wives at the slots and shops they should put it back in.
 

JWC

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In the end, its all about the money. MGM with 16 major properties has to maintain a chip inventory of around 40 million or so chips...... that cant be cheap! I'm not surprised that they all get so pissed when we harvest the ones!! they loose on every chip!! LOL I'm sure their all doing a whole lot to keep them "Sanitary" too! Not.
Unfortunately I'm in the old school "Smokers club" ( I know, I know) and watched Silver City be the first to ban smoking, they lasted a year. I always said there three things that go together perfectly, Drinking, smoking and Gambling and convinced if another casino tried that they would meet the same fate. Well times change and people adapt.

https://parkmgm.mgmresorts.com/en/hotel/smoke-free.html
View attachment 616687

I think that the chips are a small portion of the cost. You have dealer wages to consider, along with other minor expenses like new felt. Wages drive the cost of the game for the casino. Several years ago I worked for a former MGM property president, and he told me several times that they broke even at an average wager of $9.80 for blackjack at his former property on the strip. That number has to have gone up since then.

Also, depending on the type of electronic table game placed, gaming tax rates can increase or decrease: including license fees for each position, and gaming revenue / income tax rates.

In short, there are times and places where electronic table games make sense to the operator.
 

GianThaMan

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In the end, its all about the money. MGM with 16 major properties has to maintain a chip inventory of around 40 million or so chips...... that cant be cheap! I'm not surprised that they all get so pissed when we harvest the ones!! they loose on every chip!! LOL I'm sure their all doing a whole lot to keep them "Sanitary" too! Not.
Unfortunately I'm in the old school "Smokers club" ( I know, I know) and watched Silver City be the first to ban smoking, they lasted a year. I always said there three things that go together perfectly, Drinking, smoking and Gambling and convinced if another casino tried that they would meet the same fate. Well times change and people adapt.

https://parkmgm.mgmresorts.com/en/hotel/smoke-free.html
View attachment 616687
Where are you getting 40 million? It’s rare to see a casino buy more than 1 million, let alone 16 of them buy 2.5 million each. On average a normal-sized casino only orders 50-100 thousand, and the big ones will order a few hundred thousand. The biggest casino order I’ve ever heard of was a Macau casino that ordered around 700,000 chips from Abbiati, but there are probably a couple larger than that.

And to put in my own input, I don’t think this will happen. I would never go to a casino if the tables were virtual, period. 90% of the fun in gambling, to me, is seeing a fat stack of chips in front of you and placing barrels of them on a bet, then seeing that stack change. If I have to use some ill-designed machine and slide up and down virtual chips to bet them, I’ll just do something else more worth my time.
 

ekricket

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Where are you getting 40 million? It’s rare to see a casino buy more than 1 million, let alone 16 of them buy 2.5 million each. On average a normal-sized casino only orders 50-100 thousand, and the big ones will order a few hundred thousand. The biggest casino order I’ve ever heard of was a Macau casino that ordered around 700,000 chips from Abbiati, but there are probably a couple larger than that.

And to put in my own input, I don’t think this will happen. I would never go to a casino if the tables were virtual, period. 90% of the fun in gambling, to me, is seeing a fat stack of chips in front of you and placing barrels of them on a bet, then seeing that stack change. If I have to use some ill-designed machine and slide up and down virtual chips to bet them, I’ll just do something else more worth my time.
But what if it was cool, like virtual chip stacks that you could customize right at the table. You would see the chipset you want, others would see what they want.
Maybe we all get “Casino Glasses” that let you see virtual stuff - all over the casino not just the tables.
 

GianThaMan

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But what if it was cool, like virtual chip stacks that you could customize right at the table. You would see the chipset you want, others would see what they want.
Maybe we all get “Casino Glasses” that let you see virtual stuff - all over the casino not just the tables.
Ok, but then why not just do it at home with some VR glasses, like an Oculus Quest? I’ve already played some Pokerstars VR on that and it’s not as good as a live game, but it is better than these garbage electronic tables, and I’d rather stay at home then go out to a casino if it’s the same experience.
 

RivieraDanny

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Where are you getting 40 million? It’s rare to see a casino buy more than 1 million, let alone 16 of them buy 2.5 million each. On average a normal-sized casino only orders 50-100 thousand, and the big ones will order a few hundred thousand. The biggest casino order I’ve ever heard of was a Macau casino that ordered around 700,000 chips from Abbiati, but there are probably a couple larger than that.

And to put in my own input, I don’t think this will happen. I would never go to a casino if the tables were virtual, period. 90% of the fun in gambling, to me, is seeing a fat stack of chips in front of you and placing barrels of them on a bet, then seeing that stack change. If I have to use some ill-designed machine and slide up and down virtual chips to bet them, I’ll just do something else more worth my time.
Oh I’m definitely in your camp on the tactile experience! I read in a thread here just the other day, (which may have inspired the OP) that MGM had a 3M chip inventory, stated by what I believed to be a knowledgeable source.

I asked around to some colleagues in gaming and while there wasn’t exact numbers between daily use and back stock that’s absolutely close to true. MGM controls 16 “large scale”casinos and many more. And yes 40 million is a guess so maybe it’s 20 million (probably higher) that’s still a lot of inventory to maintain. Simple math without actual numbers say 500k X16 is 8 million alone. I may actually spend some time asking around to find out the real number if possible.

On simple assumptions GPI with 85 million in revenues, fast math let’s say that 50% of their revenue is chips (I’m sure it’s more) at around 1.00 a chip selling avg (another guess) that’s still 42.5 million chips sold per year. Right? Does anyone here know actual chips sold numbers for all of gaming? Wow. COVID needs to end!
 

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What’s your thoughts on playing in a chipless casino??

I would try it once for the novelty, but I can’t imagine liking it. The culture of poker (dealing, chip handling, sizing up pots and stacks with your own brain) is important to my enjoyment of the game. If COVID were over and I could find more live private games in my rural area, I’d never set foot in a casino and never play online, except for big live tourneys.
 
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Taghkanic

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They won't be saving any / much on chips after signing off on all the service agreements needed to keep the digital world up and running.

And what happens if the table freezes/glitches mid-hand? There is no such thing as a completely stable platform, I don’t care how simple the software is.

Shit will happen and I can’t imagine the ugly scenes that could ensue as the guy who had the nuts goes apeshit.

I suppose they could mirror all action on a server or a solid state backup drive in the table. But still.

As for older players: I just don’t see people who have to call their grandson every time they want to attach a photo in AOL Mail adopting such tech en masse.
 

ekricket

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what happens if the table freezes/glitches mid-? There is no such thing as a completely stable platform, I don’t care how simple the software is. Shit will happen and I can’t imagine the ugly scenes that could ensue as the guy who had the nuts goes apeshit.
It still has to be better than the messes created by inadequate dealers. Probably happen less frequent than a dealer screw up honestly.
 

RivieraDanny

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But what if it was cool, like virtual chip stacks that you could customize right at the table. You would see the chipset you want, others would see what they want.
Maybe we all get “Casino Glasses” that let you see virtual stuff - all over the casino not just the tables.
see!! Now you're on to something! Virtual chip stacks! I love it! You'd still have to build it in real time to see big stacks of WTHC's in front of you! COOL IDEA!
 

pharaohone

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A big part of the poker playing experience to me is the chips and the cards. Social aspect sure. But conversation without the continuous clicking sound of chips shuffling wouldn’t be the same. It would kill the game for me. Though I enjoy playing poker in home games for the most part already anyway.
 

CaptC07

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As I read this thread, I keep thinking about self checkout at grocery stores and how so many people where against the idea. Now you go into a grocery store and you are lucky to find 3 or 4 lanes operated by an actual cashier.

It is easy to say that you refuse to play on such tables, but most people lack that conviction. They will play on what is available. Going back to the self checkout example...it started with a single register in the store, now here we are.

I also think the savings are much higher then just the chips, the payroll saved by having a single person responsible for several tables instead on multiple people per table.
 

RivieraDanny

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A big part of the poker playing experience to me is the chips and the cards. Social aspect sure. But conversation without the continuous clicking sound of chips shuffling wouldn’t be the same. It would kill the game for me. Though I enjoy playing poker in home games for the most part already anyway.
I think @ekricket is on to something with the virtual stacks idea! maybe they could add in a virtual "chip shuffle" option too! and with bose surround sound..

DISCLOSURE: I'm not affiliated with the "Anti Chips Society" !
 

RivieraDanny

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2006. Walked in to play some 2/4 limit at Excalibur. They had electronic tables. Went next door to Luxor and played there instead.

That’s my opinion on said tables.
I'm with ya there.. So in the end I think if the push to control the cash does take place without Govt regulations and only through the joints the poker rooms that don't change up too much will be busy with us old timers and the others wont care or will care and try and revert. It will all depend on the profit each one sees. I can see this sparking a thread on any different forum about how seriously big companies look at customer service and to not go too deep Ill just say this, in the end when you go into WallyMart and Karen them on something I'm pretty sure at some point they don't care if you come back because there's 350 million other customers that will take your place and not affect the bottom line one bit. Interesting, If the casinos wanted to go touchless poker rooms I don't believe there would be a movement large enough to make them reconsider given the profits they actually realize from the poker rooms. Thankfully this is all just discussion in a tiny portion of the internet now but believe me its a real situation.
 

RivieraDanny

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Ok..... My long paragraph typing ass has to get at least a little work done today!! Have a great day all! Great discussion I cant wait to see more later!
 

Emitsu

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Oh I’m definitely in your camp on the tactile experience! I read in a thread here just the other day, (which may have inspired the OP) that MGM had a 3M chip inventory, stated by what I believed to be a knowledgeable source.
3M chips??!?!! Is that in a single property? That is insane, I couldnt imagine the need for all those (but I guess they know better then me), that just seems like overkill to me holy
 

philhut

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If anyone here has a virtual reality headset like Oculus Quest etc....Get the Virtual poker applications, they are free and mind-blowing incredible while also being cartoonish and friendly. Its the only poker I have been able to play in a while and is some of the best "free" poker I have played.

I could easily see Casinos integrating this technology where you could gamble anywhere anytime anyplace.

I could also see digital touch display tables being employed that allow you to digitally move your chips around to betting areas on your display
then this could be wiped down and the new user allowed to sit......Plus zero overhead for the casino in chips and monitoring people or dealers/staff from pocketing the chips. Security for the casino alone would make this a financially wise more for any larger casino. Like anything regulation like this will hurt the little guys and create a bigger barrier of entry into the lucrative gaming market.


Also will the home market temporarily flood with liquidated Casino chips? Shall I start saving for the day?
 

coolguy101

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That table is soooo cool. It uses real dice a 1 dealer though. So better than the bubble. I was at a demo last December for that unit. It’s so cool you want to do it. Real dice. Better than that stupid bubble machine. The rest automation and one dealer instead of 4. They’re working on the cost to benefit it’s pretty pricey and all the new companies want leases and percentages now a days.
Yeah, but I want chips and real dealers. As somebody mentioned, I don’t tip machines. A big part of craps is the dealer “watching” your bets for you. Reminding you if your forget to place a bet you’ve been placing all day, taking verbal bets, etc. I will take care of good dealers who help my game. So the machine is good for the casino with less payroll, but bad for the dealers.
 
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